Some help with a debate
Offline Hi Guys,
In joining this community I had hoped to raise my level of consciousness and be able to debate issues with theists and atheists alike (mostly theists haha). I woke up this morning and found that I had a MySpace friend request from someone who I can only assume to be a Christian. Love for God, Jesus, The Bible, etc. Hopefully I can have some rational arguments with him, but he seems to really know how to debate and I am considering this my first "big challenge" if you will. He seems to be really obsorbed by his faith, and he has an extra 10 years on me, so I just hope I can make my point without making us atheists sound like idiots and being detrimental to our cause.
I guess what I'm asking for right now is a response to one of his blogs. Which I will copy/paste for the benefit of the users who don't have MySpace. Thanks in advance for your response guys!
A Few Thoughts...
I just finished reading something that a young person posted quite recently, and (as most things do) it got me thinking...
There are so many young people who live their lives, struggling on a daily basis, with issues such as depression, fear, angst, etc etc etc. The statistics show that in Australia, suicide accounted for 19.9% of total male deaths and 13.1% of total female deaths for 15-19 y.o's, and for 26.1% of total male deaths and 11.6% of total female deaths for 20-24 y.o's, in the year 2003.
[i]A seperate study identified such feelings as isolation, alienation, helplessness, and hopelessness as possible causes for this horrific trend.
And as I sit here and ponder, I ask myself the question, "Should we be surprised?" After all, in the advent and continued perception of evolution as scientific fact (when it is in fact not fact... nor is it- by true scientific phrasology- a theory...), our young people are taught in schools that they came from nothing.
While we look around at the 21st century and see wars, and rumours of wars... nation rising against nation... people group rising against people group... terrorism... presidents and prime ministers doing what they will by use of governmental slight-of-hand... and our youth being disempowered, feeling helpless to do anything about it- they often feel that they live for nothing.
And with the stance of strong atheism (stating that there is no god [even though one is not able to view all of the evidences to arrive a such a conclusion, thereby not being able to prove the non-existence of a god])- and any other existentialist "live for the now" beliefs- being rife among society in general, there is nothing eternal to look forward to.
In the words of John Lennon
"Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today..."
All of this is to say that young people now die and go to nothing.
Let me clarify it for you again: We came from nothing, we live for nothing, and when we die we go to nothing...
This is the life that our societ"y is telling our young people to live. They vehently remove God from the equation, without being able to replace Him with something worthwhile...
I am not at all surprised our young people take their lives... With this kind of isolation, alienation, helplessness, and hopelessness being foisted onto them, I am not surprised at all.
What does surprise me is why these beautiful people insist on staying that way..."
By the way guys, my myspace is www.myspace.com/lizzleinthehizzle if you want to add me 
thanks!!!
Theism is for n00bs.
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Most issues that I've run across have been touched upon in these forums. I'd suggest doing this for yourself rather than holding up a 'cause' sign.
Did these statistics also include the religious or non-religious status of the suicides? Those percentages look high and it is sad. However, since we are discussing young people then our list of 'average' causes of death are fewer. For instance, how many deaths in those age groups were caused by cancer, heart disease, stroke, or another more geriatric killer?
In other words, the severity of the percentages seems high because there are fewer reasons for 'kids' to die.
I urge you to read more concerning evolution. Perhaps in learning what evolution says about life; past, present, and future; then you will see that your last paragraph is a false assumption. Could it based upon what you were told rather than what you have learned?
Can parents or elders help with this rather than simply expecting belief in a 'god' to do the work of role models?
Which would seem to lead people to understand that THIS life is really all that we have and we should make the most of it.
Lennon's song had more words to it than just what you posted. There are high ideals when discussing world peace through a 'brotherhood of man'.
We came from our parents, live for ourselves and the world, and when we die we are dead. Thus yet again seeming to point out that one should logically conclude that this life is all that we have. Throwing it away by suicide just doesn't seem to make sense to me.
It makes better sense to live for myself and others because that makes me feel good and thus gives meaning to our short lives.
How very sad. Two people can live in the same society and get two completely different opinions. I am so sorry that you aren't able to appreciate all that humanity has wrought in the name of progress of the human species. For a different examination, could we be curious concerning the outcome if 'god' was never there in the first place? After all, if he/she is never introduced then there would be no need to search for a replacement.
I am surprised that young people take their lives. Perhaps if they were instilled with a greater appreciation for it by their forebears in the ways that I mentioned earlier then you and I could be shocked when one of them did commit suicide.
We must teach them that they are special. Not special to a god but special to each other, us, and themselves.
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I've actually felt like doing it on numerous occasions (and almost did once.) And it had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I believed in a god (indeed, if I had I may have tried more than that 1 time, believing I could go to heaven rather than just oblivion.)
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
It doesn't matter what we came from, only where we are going.
There's always a reason to think, feel and keep moving. That reason doesn't nessecarily need to be god, or any of his fictional buddies. It's good that you're actively questioning your own views, however I think your idea of evolution may be too general. Religion doesn't make people happy, it just dulls them enough to stave off misery and temporarily at that.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Liam,
This guy wrote:
And as I sit here and ponder, I ask myself the question, "Should we be surprised?" After all, in the advent and continued perception of evolution as scientific fact (when it is in fact not fact... nor is it- by true scientific phrasology- a theory...), our young people are taught in schools that they came from nothing.
Actually evolution is a fact, just as gravity is a fact. Not all is known about the "theory" of gravity, but no credible scientist would dispute this theory.
This guy obviously is confused between a theory and a hypothesis, from what I can gather.
Also, Evolution, as you may already know, in no way teaches that people came from nothing. Actually it is quite the opposite. I continue to see christians and the like equate Evolution and Cosmology. Evolution has nothing to say about the origins of the Universe, since it is the theory of the origins of life on a small part of our universe.
If you need further help, our Science Expert, Yellow No. 5, I'm sure would be happy to help.
These stats are worthless in representing reality. I think anyone using stats in such a way are simply lying.
What is needed to give these numbers a more truthful meaning is the total of deaths for 15-19 year olds.
For example, if there were 1,000,000 15-19 yo’s and 1,000 die and 200 of which (20%) commit suicide, the suicide rate is .0002%.
Also perhaps out of the 1,000,000, 500,000 could be suffering from depression; which would make the suicide rate for depressed people .0004%.
Very low in both examples.
So, I repeat, what would make the stats realistic would be the suicide RATE.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Razorcade's claim that "evolution is a fact, just like gravity is a fact" is utterly specious.
No less a scientist than Carl Sagan said, "Nothing is known for certain, except perhaps in mathematics."
Now he exaggerated, but how many "facts" of science have since been overturned by different "facts." The list is a very long one, and of course it continues to grow.
If the young lady seeks solace from depression, it is not to be found in the vapid expanse of nihilism that is atheism.
Christ gives hope and meaning to lost souls. Nothing gives nothing. I believe there is a song that should strike a chord in every atheist heart: "Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin' "
Recall too that atheist Carl Sagan also said, "Sex was invented."
He was a card, that Carl....
How "scientific" is that claim.
the guy is correlating. Belief in evolution=suicide and depression. It's bullshit. There are so many variables that account for depression and suicide, and let me tell you, the lack of god is not one of them.
It's simple really....and typical. His argument can be destroyed by applying simple variables. For example: Social class, chemical imbalances, disease, abuse, drugs, etc..etc..etc...
Ironically most wars in the world are indeed fought for a god. So don't let him fool ya. Just know this, that his correlative conjecture is nothing but. It's an assumption based on ideology. A twisting of statistics. Muslims do that the best with their qu'ranic verses.....
Additionally, equating emptiness with atheism is also a fallacy. The problem is that these people...worry so much about what happens when they die, that they forget the beauty of life itself. They forget how to live. Which is why they, then need a heaven or god. It's sad really...the earth is a gem among the cosmos, the rarest diamond ever. To demean that by saying that if there is no god, all is hopeless, is well, hopeless in itself. Tell your friend to just sit back and wake up for a second and enjoy life. Stop worrying about what happens when you die and start enjoying this earth. Work to protect it so that future generations can do the same. A nuclear bomb dropped on a city for God's love...is not exactly the hopefulness I envision.
Oh and as far as evolution..it is a fact. Tell him to put down his bible and pick up a science book.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Would you mind telling me how someone someone is supposed to find hope and meaning from a philosophy who's working factor is instilling shame in it's followers? A young person who is struggling with depression and low self-esteem probably isn't going to benefit from the self-loathing christianity commands. The idea that pride is actually a sin is sickening and aids no one.
Great post. I agree completley. I remember being taken to church as a child and being so disturbed by how obsessed these people were with death...not to mention the pleasure they displayed at the site of a maimed and tortured man nailed to a cross. Life is for living. Maybe someone should have told them?
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Hey guys!
I just responded to this guy's MySpace blog. I included bits of your guys arguments, and I think I really got a point across. Thanks so much for your help and I look forward to his reply.
Here is what I responded with:
I have a few thoughts on this article as well.
You quote the following statistics: "in Australia, suicide accounted for 19.9% of total male deaths and 13.1% of total female deaths for 15-19 y.o's, and for 26.1% of total male deaths and 11.6% of total female deaths for 20-24 y.o's, in the year 2003".
Perhaps you should present the statistics in a different light. You are showing the rate of suicide as a cause of death, not the rate of suicide amongst the population. A friend of mine helped me to put it into a fairly easy to understand scenario: "If there were 1,000,000 15-19 yo’s and 1,000 die and 200 of which (20%) commit suicide, the suicide rate is .0002%. Also perhaps out of the 1,000,000, 500,000 could be suffering from depression; which would make the suicide rate for depressed people .0004%. Very low in both examples."
You make the suicide rate sound higher than it actually is. I am in no way saying that the rate of suicide is something we should shun, just presenting a different angle on the statistics.
You say "A seperate study identified such feelings as isolation, alienation, helplessness, and hopelessness as possible causes for this horrific trend."
You then go on to state that you can't be surprised, given that evolution is being taught as scientific fact. Some people use the phrasology "The Theory of Evolution" which is also entirely correct. It is a theory. There is another scientific theory which I am sure you are famliar with as well. It is called the Theory of Gravity. I'm going to assume that you aren't willing to doubt this particular theory by trying to fly off the top of a building.
The fact is, there are so many variable that contribute to depression and suicide, you can't be certain that lack of belief in God is one of them. Of how many of the people that do commit suicide are atheists? How many have had different social upbringings? How many have experimented with drugs and things of that nature? What about chemical imbalances in the body and brain that can cause someone to feel depressed? How about people who were abused, sexually, mentally and physically in childhood? By people in authorative stances?
Maybe, instead of focusing on whether we are going to be sent to hell by a vengeful God, (who created us no less, and will banish us to an eternity of burning just because he didn't pre-program us well enough), we should focus on enjoying the ONLY LIFE WE HAVE. Being an atheist, and understanding why you are an atheist is one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. Only in the last few months of raising my consciousness have a begun to truly realize how disgustingly lucky both you and I are to be here, and I for one will not take it for granted by thinking there is a next life.
P.S. Thanks to all the guys at www.rationalresponders.com for their help.
EDIT: After I posted this I then went to post the blog comment on his MySpace... and got the following message: " This user requires all comments to be approved before being posted. Your comment has been submitted to this user for approval."
Let's see if my comment even makes it there
Theism is for n00bs.
The maimed figures of jesus christ (much like mel giboson's movie) are used to appeal to the emotions. control by stimulating emapthy, sadness, grief. It completely shuts down rational thought. That is why most xtians are soo...emotional with everything. They don't stop to think. they function completely on a knee-jerk reactionary emotional basis. The church knows this and has exploited people's emotions to get people to stop thinking and follow blindly.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.
good job liam.
American Heritage Dictionary
spe·cious Having the ring of truth or plausibility but actually fallacious: a specious argument.
Now, if you are claiming that the 'Theory of Gravity' is just plausible, then please accompany me to the top of a tall building. When I throw you over the side, I am sure that the facts of this theory will become patently obvious when you meet the ground.
You could, however, pray to your god to save you, but I would bet money that you will prove this theory (aka fact) rather quickly.
Now for a lesson on scientific terminology.
Hypothesis - a suggested explanation of a phenomenon or reasoned proposal suggesting a possible correlation between multiple phenomena
Theory - In science, a theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena
Fact - In science a fact is an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a theory, which is a explanation of or interpretation of facts
Just a small note; for scientists, theory and fact do not necessarily stand in opposition.
This terminology holds true for the 'Theory of Evolution' as well. There is a mountain of evidence to support this theory, and there are also some things we don't know, but any credible scientist does not dispute that this theory is indeed a fact.
You see, we don't know everything about gravity either. We can observe its effects, test them, and make predictions, based on these tests, but that doesn't make the 'fact' of gravity untrue.
Are you learning anything yet?
This list you speak of, is sort of the driving force behind science. It is the constant testing, verifying and falsifying of facts, that has advanced man's knowledge of the natural world. Without this method, the constant revision or 'overturning of facts', as you say, nearly every major field of science would grind to a halt.
Imagine this, you have a scientist who claims the moon is made of cheese. What reason would we have to doubt him? Should we test his claim? According to your line of reasoning, no, we should just hold on the fact that, indeed the moon is made of cheese.
Here is where you and all theists should really 'pay attention'
"ATHEISM is merely a life without god belief"
It has nothing to do with nihilism, cosmology, or even evolution. Enough said.
As for the depressed young lady, I am sure that a community of caring people or family could help her if she so desired. To say that a 2000 yr. old book is gonna give her solace would really be stretching the envelope of reason. Especially one filled with so many atrocities, that I can't believe that more christians don't off themselves, however, one can only hope.
There are so many things wrong with this statement I hardly know where to begin, but I will try.
1. Which Christ, and how do you know him?
2. If you can satisfy first question, then, this Christ, what makes you think you know what he is capable of?
3. Hope and meaning, to what? Life? Death? Ice cream sandwiches?
4. What is a soul? Define the properties of this thing, and describe what makes them 'lost'.
5. Are you learning anything yet?
You might want to read a book that you actually teach you something. If you only have a 2000 year old fairy tale to guide you, then I would be glad to lend you a few of my books. Course I want them returned before the 'Rapture', lol.
lol this statement made my day.
Excellent response, liam. I look forward to reading any reply you might receive.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Hey everyone,
Shane (the dudes myspace I am debating on), replied to my response. I decided to answer the issues he raised with my reply on my own: http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=88298359&blogID=187738081&Mytoken=D2CFC202-E9C2-43DA-9812D9003874A70736760524
I hope I have done a decent job haha.
Theism is for n00bs.
"great atheist spokesman, German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche" ???
Like he's our patron saint or some shit? I disagree with SO MUCH Nietzsche wrote. If this guy thinks we all agree with every other person who just so happens to find a "god belief" silly.... well, he should come hang out here!
Someone should tell this guy that atheism =/= existentialism.
Great replies so far, Liam!
ImmaculateDeception
I'm Razor, but its all good, and I'm happy I made your day.
As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Nietzche was an athiest only by a very loose interpretation of the word. He ws a nihilist, and sometimes nihilism goes against atheism. Nihilsm denies, on moral grounds I think, that there is any truth. In other words it's a moral philosophy more than anything else. Atheism "COULD" fall under this category, but it is certainly not limited to it. Nietzche by far, was not an atheist spokesman. He was a thinker who realized religion is irrational.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Actually, gravity is described as being a theory. I think the idea of a scientific theory is being misunderstood here. In science, theory and fact are virtually interchangeable.
This statement makes me laugh. Evolution may not be actively observable, but neither is god. It would be easy enough to turn that same argument around on theists. In fact, I will:
Science is observable, subject to experimentation, repeatable and verifiable. God isn't a science; it doesn't fit one of the four categories.
The correct phrasing here would be "God created humanity to love Him OR to burn in hell for eternity"
I agree that true love is not forced, which leads me to disagree with the latter part of this statement. The love of a higher power will always be forced when eternal damnation is at stake and shame is used to control. Just as an abusive lover controls with fists and harsh words, so does religion with it's baseless threats of eternal suffering for not devoted yourself 100% to an absent father. We do not believe the abused lover when they say they love the person abusing them; we credit this statement to fear. The idea of hell was created for that purpose: to invoke fear. There is no love in a concept like that.
This was already mentioned above by glamourkat and leftoflarry, but Nietzsche was an exestentialist. Exestentialism and atheist are not mutually exclusive.
To elaborate, exestentialism basically states that the world and its people are inherently bad, therefore there is no way a benevolent god. Atheism uses science, reason and logic when explaining the non-existance of god, rather than pessimism. Many atheists disagree with Friedrich Nietzche, including myself
I loved your response, liam especially the following paragraph. Great job!
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
you do not seem to understand that fact and theory are not mutually exclusive.
the reason evolution is fact, is because we actually have evidence.
this includes, but is not limited to:
1. the fossil record of change in earlier species
2. the chemical and anatomical similarities of related life forms
3. the geographic distribution of related species
4. the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over many generations
5. observations of natural selection in action (see here)
also, look here
again, theory and fact are not mutually exclusive.
1. atheism isn't an organisation. therefore there are no spokesmen for atheism. there can only be people speaking against religion, who just happen to be called atheists.
2. I disagree with so much of what he says anyway
The differences in facts, theories, and laws in science are discussed in "Mailbag Response: Dissent from an atheist" in the RRS Free Shows also.
"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought
Something else that might be of interest, the LAW of Gravity is part of the greater THEORY of Gravitation. A scientific law presents one fact, a theory presents a bunch of facts. Both are adjusted slightly as we learn more about nature.
A theory is not a guess. Not even an educated guess. It's a model to explain a factual phenomena. A hypothesis is an educated guess which the scientist hopes to test and form either a theory or law. Notice that it isn't the hypothesis of evolution, it's the theory of evolution. Not the hypothesis of gravitation, but the theory of gravitation.
Should I reiterate some more?