kind of off subject..but what the hell..its' good
Offline this is in regards to rumsfeld resignation.
Marines Get the News From an Iraqi Host: Rumsfeld’s Out. ‘Who’s Rumsfeld?’
Lance Cpl. James L. Davis Jr., right, taking a smoke break.
Sgt. Michael A. McKinnon talked with Mr. Menti on Wednesday.
By C. J. CHIVERS
Published: November 10, 2006
ZAGARIT, Iraq, Nov. 9 — Hashim al-Menti smiled wanly at the marine sergeant beside him on his couch. The sergeant had appeared in the darkness on Wednesday night, knocking on the door of Mr. Menti’s home.
When Mr. Menti answered, a squad of infantrymen swiftly moved in, making him an involuntary host.
Since then marines had been on his roof with rifles, watching roads where insurgents often planted bombs.
Mr. Menti had passed the time watching television. Now he had news. He spoke in broken English. “Rumsfeld is gone,” he told the sergeant, Michael A. McKinnon.
“Democracy,” he added, and made a thumbs-up sign. “Good.”
The marines had been on a continuous foot patrol for several days, hunting for insurgents. They were lost in the hard and isolating rhythms of infantry life.
They knew nothing of the week’s news.
Now they were being told by an Iraqi whose house they occupied that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, one of the principal architects of the policies that had them here, had resigned. “Rumsfeld is gone?” the sergeant asked. “Really?”
Mr. Menti nodded. “This is better for Iraq,” he said. “Iraqi people say thank you.”
The sergeant went upstairs to tell his marines, just as he had informed them the day before that the Republican Party had lost control of the House of Representatives and that Congress was in the midst of sweeping change. Mr. Menti had told them that, too.
“Rumsfeld’s out,” he said to five marines sprawled with rifles on the cold floor.
Lance Cpl. James L. Davis Jr. looked up from his cigarette. “Who’s Rumsfeld?” he asked.
If history is any guide, many of the young men who endure the severest hardships and assume the greatest risks in the war in Iraq will become interested in politics and politicians later, when they are older and look back on their combat tours.
But not yet. Marine infantry units have traditionally been nonpolitical, to the point of stubbornly embracing a peculiar detachment from policy currents at home. It is a pillar of the corps’ martial culture: those with the most at stake are among the least involved in the decisions that send them where they go.
Mr. Rumsfeld may have become one of the war’s most polarizing figures at home. But among these young marines slogging through the war in Anbar Province, he appeared to mean almost nothing. If he was another casualty, they had seen worse.
“Rumsfeld is the secretary of defense,” Sergeant McKinnon said, answering Lance Corporal Davis’s question.
Lance Corporal Davis simply cursed.
It did not sound like anger or disgust. It seemed instead to be an exclamation about the irrelevance of the news. The sergeant might as well have told the squad of yesterday’s weather.
Another marine, Lance Cpl. Patrick S. Maguire, said the decisions that mattered here, inside Company F, Second Battalion, Eighth Marines, were much more important to them than those made in the Pentagon back home.
There are daily, dangerous questions: When to go on patrol, when to come back, which route to take down a road, which weapon to carry, and, at this moment, which watch each marine would stand, crouched up on the roof, in the cold wind, exposed to sniper fire.
His grandfather fought at Iwo Jima, he said, and his father was a marine in Vietnam. This was his second tour in Iraq. “Here’s the deal,” he said. “Someone points a finger at you, and you go.”
“The chain of command?” he added. “You know how high I know? My battalion commander is Lt. Col. DeTreux. That’s how high I know.”
And so between the marines and Mr. Menti and his family, the split reactions to news of Mr. Rumsfeld’s resignation made for surreal scenes.
Mr. Menti, 50, a radiologist by training, spent part of the afternoon trying to impress the meaning of the news on the young sergeant beside him on the couch.
The war policy was soon to change, he said.
“I think in one year you return to America,” he said.
The sergeant sat implacably.
“This is good for you,” Mr. Menti said. “No?”
He spoke of years of fear. Under Saddam Hussein, he said, they were afraid. Now, with the American troops and insurgents fighting in Anbar, they are still afraid. He returned to the news of Mr. Rumsfeld’s resignation.
“People in America are very happy,” he said. “I saw this on TV. And I am very happy. Thank you, American people.”
He pointed at the young marines before him, smoking on his couches, drinking his hot, sweetened tea. “These soldiers, in Iraq, they make freedom?” he asked.
“Yes,” Sergeant McKinnon said.
“What kind of freedom?” he asked.
He had been talking about the living conditions in the province since the night before, when the marines appeared at his door.
There are almost no schools, he said. There is almost no medicine. There is little food, and no electricity except from generators. The list went on. No water. No work. Violence. Abductions. Beheadings. Explosions.
His son-in-law had been kidnapped by insurgents seven months ago, he said, and a note the insurgents left said he was abducted for being friendly with American troops. He has not been seen since.
In Baghdad, he said, Iranian-backed death squads were killing Sunni citizens. The country was falling apart.
“You like freedom?” he asked the sergeant. “This kind? This way?”
“No,” Sergeant McKinnon said.
“I think you and I and many people do not like freedom in this way,” he said. “I believe this. I am sure.”
“It is wrong, the American Army coming here. It is wrong.”
He looked at Sergeant McKinnon, who is younger than many of his 14 children. He was trying to draw him out.
“If American Army came here for three months, four months, O.K.” Mr. Menti said. “But now is four years.”
If there were no American military presence in Iraq, he said, there would be no insurgents. One serves as a magnet for the other.
Mr. Menti spoke to the sergeant as if he were an American diplomat, as if he had some influence over the broad sweeps of American foreign policy. The sergeant remained quiet and polite.
“I don’t think he realizes that we’re trying to make this country safer for him,” he said to Lance Corporal Maguire.
“I think he realizes that we’re trying to make it safe, but that the more we stay here the more people come in and make it worse,” Lance Corporal Maguire replied.
They went upstairs, to pack their gear for the next move, planned for after dark, to another house and another night of looking down on the roads, waiting for an insurgent with a bomb to step within range of a rifle shot.
Sergeant McKinnon spoke of the squad’s isolation. “I only found out yesterday that the Saddam trial was over,” he said. “Another Iraqi told me that.”
He turned to the task of planning for the night’s fire support.
Up on the roof, Lance Corporal Maguire mused about the news. Whatever Mr. Rumsfeld’s resignation might eventually mean, it did not matter here yet, and it would not keep them alive tonight.
Another marine, Lance Cpl. Randall D. Webb, was scanning traffic through his rifle scope, worried that they had been spotted and the insurgents would soon know where they were.
“I think they see us,” he said.
“Man, they all see us,” Lance Corporal Maguire said, and lighted another cigarette.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.
- Login to post comments
In all fairness, these guys are getting shot at everyday, living in the most deplorable conditions, not getting enough sleep and having to load what's left of their best friend into a Humvee...I doubt their memories are that great or if they even care about what is going on over here.
My great-grandmother died when my brother was in Iraq and during one of our phone calls, I told him about her death and funeral. He didn't seem really phased at the time, but when he got home and someone mentioned it, he had no memory of me even telling him she had passed.
I completely agree with you, this is why I posted this here.
Outside politics, there's a reality, we all need to understand this reality.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.
I noticed that a lot of people don't get this point. I became somewhat disenchanted with the anti-war movement when I encountered so many people that expressed hostility toward the soldiers serving overseas.
A nation needs an army, and the soldiers of that army need to do what they are instructed to do. I don't agree with the politics behind the war, but I have nothing but respect for those who are fighting it.
I remember when that guy who left the NFL to fight in Afghanistan (his name escapes me at the moment) was killed, many anti-war people objected to him being branded as a "hero"... some actually villified him. Whether or not we like war, we need to know that our nation needs people like him.
We should never take our political agendas out on our troops.
My Site: http://www.fundamentallyflawed.com/
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/labanzab
Friendster: http://www.friendster.com/40193458
You're talking about Pat Tillman. Ironically, he was killed by friendly fire and there was a cover up on what happened. His brother, who served with Pat, is a huge anti-war activist now and has been disenchanted by the way the government has duped all of us into this bullshit war. The army used Pat Tillman's death as a motivator for the war. Calling him a hero fallen in combat etc..etc.. That he was a brave soldier, there is no doubt. It's just how the army used his death is what's wrong, he was exploited. THing is the family is pissed because there was a cover up on his death. He was shot multiple times by army rangers and there was no investigation. Instead the army told the "patriotic" story that he was shot in combat by enemy fire while heroically storming a hill....yeah....again...they have exploited him and they are exploiting every single patriotic, brave soldier out there.
Check out Kevin Tillman's (Pat's Brother) editorial on truthdig.com about his brother's birthday, the war, and this administration
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/
This is from the WAshington Post.
Tillman's Parents Are Critical Of Army
Family Questions Reversal On Cause of Ranger's Death
By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, May 23, 2005; Page A01
Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss.
More than a year after their son was shot several times by his fellow Army Rangers on a craggy hillside near the Pakistani border, Tillman's mother and father said in interviews that they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country. They say the Army's "lies" about what happened have made them suspicious, and that they are certain they will never get the full story.
"Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did," Mary Tillman said in her first lengthy interview since her son's death. "The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."
Tillman, a popular player for the Arizona Cardinals, gave up stardom in the National Football League after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to join the Army Rangers with his brother. After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004, where they were to hunt for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.
Immediately, the Army kept the soldiers on the ground quiet and told Tillman's family and the public that he was killed by enemy fire while storming a hill, barking orders to his fellow Rangers. After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened, that he had been killed by his own men.
In separate interviews in their home town of San Jose and by telephone, Tillman's parents, who are divorced, spoke about their ordeal with the Army with simmering frustration and anger. A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death.
The latest investigation, written about by The Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. The investigation also revealed that soldiers later burned Tillman's uniform and body armor.
That information was slow to make it back to the United States, the report said, and Army officials here were unaware that his death on April 22, 2004, was fratricide when they notified the family that Tillman had been shot.
Over the next 10 days, however, top-ranking Army officials -- including the theater commander, Army Gen. John P. Abizaid -- were told of the reports that Tillman had been killed by his own men, the investigation said. But the Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family -- which was weeks after a nationally televised memorial service that honored Tillman on May 3, 2004.
Patrick Tillman Sr., a San Jose lawyer, said he is furious about what he found in the volumes of witness statements and investigative documents the Army has given to the family. He decried what he calls a "botched homicide investigation" and blames high-ranking Army officers for presenting "outright lies" to the family and to the public.
"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," Patrick Tillman said. "They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy."
Army spokesmen maintain that the Army has done everything it can to keep the family informed about the investigation, offering to answer relatives' questions and going back to them as investigators gathered more information.
Army officials said Friday that the Army "reaffirms its heartfelt sorrow to the Tillman family and all families who have lost loved ones during this war." Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks, an Army spokesman, said the Army acts with compassion and heartfelt commitment when informing grieving families, often a painful duty.
"In the case of the death of Corporal Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family," Brooks said. "For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes."
Brooks said the Army has "actively and directly" informed the Tillman family regarding investigations into his death and has dedicated a team of soldiers and civilians to answering the family's questions through phone calls and personal meetings while ensuring the family "was as well informed as they could be."
Mary Tillman keeps her son's wedding album in the living room of the house where he grew up, and his Arizona State University football jersey, still dirty from the 1997 Rose Bowl game, hangs in a nearby closet. With each new version of events, her mind swirls with new theories about what really happened and why. She questions how an elite Army unit could gun down its most recognizable member at such close range. She dwells on distances and boulders and piles of documents and the words of frenzied men.
"It makes you feel like you're losing your mind in a way," she said. "You imagine things. When you don't know the truth, certain details can be blown out of proportion. The truth may be painful, but it's the truth. You start to contrive all these scenarios that could have taken place because they just kept lying. If you feel you're being lied to, you can never put it to rest."
Patrick Tillman Sr. believes he will never get the truth, and he says he is resigned to that now. But he wants everyone in the chain of command, from Tillman's direct supervisors to the one-star general who conducted the latest investigation, to face discipline for "dishonorable acts." He also said the soldiers who killed his son have not been adequately punished.
"Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore," he said. "Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has."
That their son was famous opened up the situation to problems, the Tillmans say, in part because of the devastating public relations loss his death represented for the military. Mary Tillman says the government used her son for weeks after his death, perpetuating an untrue story to capitalize on his altruism -- just as the Abu Ghraib prison scandal was erupting publicly. She said she was particularly offended when President Bush offered a taped memorial message to Tillman at a Cardinals football game shortly before the presidential election last fall. She again felt as though her son was being used, something he never would have wanted.
"Every day is sort of emotional," Mary Tillman said. "It just keeps slapping me in the face. To find that he was killed in this debacle -- everything that could have gone wrong did -- it's so much harder to take. We should not have been subjected to all of this. This lie was to cover their image. I think there's a lot more yet that we don't even know, or they wouldn't still be covering their tails.
"If this is what happens when someone high profile dies, I can only imagine what happens with everyone else."
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Yes... it seems as if the government is not above exploiting soldiers to further their own agendas.
They did much the same with Jessica Lynch. The story they released to the media about her going down firing until she was out of ammo was refuted by Jessica herself.
To make matters worse, they claimed that she was raped by enemy soldiers. She claims to have no knowledge of this happening, and the Iraqi doctors and nurses who treated her said they found absolutely no evidence to support this.
It is sad to see individuals give everything to support their country, only to have the government use them as pawns in some propaganda campaign. They deserve far better.
My Site: http://www.fundamentallyflawed.com/
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/labanzab
Friendster: http://www.friendster.com/40193458
This reminds me of the kid in A Few Good Men. Completely oblivious, just does what he's told. A low rank enlisted Marine in combat is just supposed to keep his head down, and if someone with more stripes or a medal ensignia on his shoulders tells him to do something, he does it right then and without question. Anything beyond that is just a distraction. I'm sure the 18 year old kids in combat in Iraq, whose main concern is if he's going to live to see 19, could really give two shits about politics back home.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
- Eric Idle, from The Galaxy Song
Recommended reading:
The Prince by Machiavelli
http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm
As you read, it is possible to draw parallels with our modern warfare. The Sun Tzu of Italy was deposed from his dream of a republic. He died as a banished statesman. So too can one draw a parallel with what may happen in future Iraq. Will we ever learn?
"How one lives is so far removed from how one ought to live that he who abandons what one does for what one ought to do, learns rather his own ruin than his preservation." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.