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The Origin Of Religion
Posted on: December 1, 2006 - 1:21am
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The Origin Of Religion
New evidence that suggests the first religion is roughly 70,000 years old. Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
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*rolls eyes* We all know the earth is only 6000 years old.... maybe God put that carved snake their to test our faith.
Or..... who is the snake in Genesis?
That's RIGHT!
SATAN!
Maybe the devil did that to TRICK you.
Hahaha, okay, sorry. Anyway, that's really cool.
I saw this yesterday. A neolithic temple with ornate carvings just found in Turkey. The site is called Gobekli Tepe. And, just so you guys know, neolithic = 10 000BC.
This is before pottery, before the wheel. They found FLINT arrowheads there too. And it looks to be a place of worship, that was buried with care and abandoned. They're calling it Eden.
Whatever you call it, it sure is cool. Makes me wonder what else is buried that we haven't found. Ruins are so cool.
That is just merely speculation that its as old as it is. Radiometric dating is not 100% accurate. It has its errors. This find could aid in stating that mankind has been at a certain level of intelligence for longer than we think.
Ok, me being a Christian its time for me to get Biblical here. Given everything created 6000 years ago here. Given mankind was not spoken into existance, man was created. Man fell away from God when man figured out that its possible to do own thing. Lets move all the way to Abraham. Not all the world was in the hand of the creator. God made a promise to Abraham that his seed will be God's people. Only Israel was in the plan of God. The Bible accounts for many other beliefs (in with Israel fell into many times). There was a split in beliefs because man discovered their free will and fell away, giving heed to the world, and hence other belief systems were born.
Finding a python head does not immediately mean that there is an older religion, it just means that another belief was found. Again, it is impossible to rely completly on radiometric dating because each method has its flaws and they are inaccurate measurements.
now to stop this common assumption (and i am talking to other christians that may be here too) that satan planted things throughout history to sway beliefs:
Satan DID NOT know what was going on, what he was involved in he did not believe himself. Biblically if satan really knew what was going on he would not have crucified Jesus.
Isaiah gives account to a very accurate answer to this issue:
God spoke through Isaiah saying:
"I AM sought of them that asked not for me, I am found of them that sought me not: I said Behold me, behold me unto a nation that WAS NOT CALLED BY MY NAME"
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
No, it isn't.
They've got the right ballpark, at the very least.
Few things are 100% accurate, and error is always involved. The error for this particular type of dating is around 5%. How, exactly, does this change the validity of the findings?
No, it couldn't. We had evidence of stone tools and cerimonial items and artwork from this time period in human history already.
Blah, blah, blah. Call me when you have some sort of empirical evidence or reason to call the radiometric dating into question. Do you even understand how such dating works?
I will give you that this find does not necessarily establish an ancient religion. I WILL however laugh at you if you continue to insist the earth is 6,000 years old.
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
I love how Robert Ingersoll ridiculed the Young Earth idea by pointing out statues that were older than that - they must have been made before the Earth.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
here is a link i have found:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Actually, beyond what was discussed in this article, there is evidence of religion that is older than christianity. For example, norse paganism.
The oldest evidence is several hunting glyphes, which were discovered to originate between 9000 and 6000 B.C in Northern Scandinavia. Going by the established idea that christianity was founded in the first century, that makes this particular religion much older.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Heh, the ancient egyptions.
I'm curious JesusLovesYou, how LONG where the ancient egyptions around? according to you.
Older than Christianity? Well, yes. Judaism is ~4k (Based on YEC reasoning that the earth is only ~6k years old in total) years older than Christianity, since its the foundation of it.
Unfortunately, "evidence" doesn't matter. The YECs will just claim the dating methods are flawed, or its an illusion created by their god to "test" us. Or any other BS they can think of to help them hide from the truth.
The links aren't showing up for me except in quote, so here they are:
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dating-radiometric.htm
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i4/radiometric.asp
I have some links of my own.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dating.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/isochron-dating.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD010.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-add.html
Have you ever read any of mainstream science's responses to the claims that radioactive dating is flawed? I was a creationist once. It's true! I went to Christian private schools for middle and high school. We would learn all these things in class. We had to read "Scientific Creationism" by Henry Morris, and he says all the sorts of things I've seen creationists talk about all the time online. When I would learn these new creationist claims, I would get all giddy. I would imagine the looks on all those evil scientists' faces when my fellow creationists and I would show them this new "evidence" that they were wrong and Jesus was Lord. Then I graduated and went to college, and didn't have the same peer-pressure social influence I used to. I don't recall exactly how I found talkorigins.org, but it was really quite surprising to learn that all these "proofs" of a young Earth that I'd been told had come to the attention of scientists a long time ago. Like, back in the 1980s. I was seven when that decade ended! Even more was the revelation that the scientists had answers. Well thought out answers, too, that were far more coherent and believable than the creationist claims, which were rapidly falling apart for me under the barrage of valid science. Eventually I stopped being a creationist, and find evolutionary biology to be absolutely fascinating. (At some point I became an atheist, too, but that didn't really have much to do with losing my creationism.)
So, please read those links I provided. They have their own links to other articles you might like. You can be like me!
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Talkorigins= insta-fail.
Yes, radioactive dating has a flaw, but as Y#5 said, it's 5% off give or take. But it is still worth something.
Eh?
We are not debating what is older than CHRISTIANITY here! It is fact that "CHRISTIANITY" wasn't established until the day of Pentecost. Do you understand what CHRISTIANITY is? It is the complete fulfillment of OT Judaism. It is the receipt of the promise given unto Abraham.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Alright then, but what exactly did you mean by this?
What 'religion' were you referring to? I thought it was christianity because of the bible quotes. Sorry if I was mistaken, but would you mind clarifying?
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Yes, i was quoting from the Bible, part of the Bible is the Tanach, or the Jewish Holy Book which consists of 3 parts, the Torah(the books of Moses), the Nevi'im(the books of the prophets) and the Ketuvim, which consists of Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Esther, Lamentations, Ecclesates, Daniel, Ezra through Nehemiah, and Chronicles.
The scripture that I quoted was from Isaiah which is from the Nevi'im part of the Tanach.
And if you take the languages the Bible was written in, and look at the word testament, it means covenant. If you look at the writings in the Old compared to the new, especially taking a look at Hebrews then going back to the OT, you will find that the Old Covenant was merely there as a foreshadow of the good things to come.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Sorry, but I'm not quite satisfied with your response. I'm not understanding how this is relevant. If I'm missing something, please let me know. Right now, it seems like you've disregarded what I said about Norse paganism, not to mention the reference to the Ancient Egyptian religion mentioned previously.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Here we go. JesusLovesYou is going to totally ignore Y#5's response that radiocarbon dating has only a 5% margin of error.
How do you fundies do it? Really, it amazes me the way you are able to block out information like that. It's exactly like 1984 where O'Brian gets Winston to see 5 fingers when he's only holding up 4.
Oh, and if you're going to retreat back into your fantasy about Satan planting misleading information, how do you know he didn't do that in the bible, too?
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Radio-carbon dating may only have a 5% error rate BUT it can only date something up to 5400 years old.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You may have missed a zero there, hoss.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/cardat.html
The highest I've heard about is 70,000 with fancy new techniques, but most sites -- which, by the way, I found after googling for ten seconds -- give the upper limit at around 50,000.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
have you ever heard of a man by the name of Earnest Haeckel? you know, the biogentic law? Well he was tried by the Jena University court for fraud, and he stated "I should feel utterly condemned...were it not hundreds of the best observers and biologists lie under the same charge"
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Way to totally dance around my pointing out that you botched a scientific figure that anyone with Google and ten seconds of free time could have found. But, yes, I have heard of Haeckel.
You mean the one scientists haven't accepted for decades? Here is a good primer on what modern science actually says about embryos and Haeckel. Also, about that carbon dating thing, how do you feel about being shown wrong by a factor of ten?
Oh, he was? Really? Fascinating! You see, no one has ever come up with any evidence that this trial ever actually happened! No sources or court documents or anything. Also, about that carbon dating thing, how do you feel about being shown wrong by a factor of ten?
It looks like, in addition to their misrepresentations of the current acceptable of Haeckel's work, they also have a thing for making up stories wholesale. Also, about that carbon dating thing, how do you feel about being shown wrong by a factor of ten?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
What's this got to do with my points on the age of earth and the universe?
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
first of all, the point i brought him up was not to say that his botched theory was still being taught, the point I brought it up was the thing he said about others lying under the same charge as he.
Source?
Dr. Edward Blick, Blick engineering, OK
Records from the University of Jena trial in 1875
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
And dudes from 1875 who haven't had their theories confirmed by modern science have relevence to this discussion because?.......
Why should we give a fuck about what this blick guy said? Why should we, today?
We give credence to Darwin and Einstein for a reason - their ideas stand the test of time and scientific scrutinty.
Do you actually have something with any empirical clout?
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Why are you so bent on defending mythology?
There were prior religions to Christianity. You merely are so afraid of being wrong you cling to your belief because it would suck if you found out it was nothing but fiction. If you get over that fear you'll be liberated from it.
Donkeys dont talk. Snakes and bushes dont talk. Human flesh does not survive rigor mortis. Those are just stories someone made up, just like the stories of the ones before.
You didn't get it "poof" right anymore than the idiots who made up the first religion. Fiction is fiction is fiction no matter who screams it or how many people scream it.
Those first people were wrong and so are you. You just believe in a currently popular myth no different than the fiction they believed was real. Allah, Jesus, Yahwey are the same as Thor and Isis and all of it is fiction and not a lick of reality in magic. Just made up superhero stories.
The sooner you realize this the quicker you can be liberated from the shackles of fiction and the better you will be able to deal with reality. But, if you dont want help in doing such, we cant help you.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Do you feel it? That little tickle in the back of your head when you type this crap? That's your conscience, fucking with you. It knows you're being dishonest in order to avoid having to admit you're wrong.
Where are your christian values, JesusLovesYou? Is this what we should expect from people who have accepted jesus into their hearts? Grasping at straws that you know to be beside the point in order to try to plant some doubt where there is none...tsk tsk.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
You're officially a fucking idiot. We use more than just carbon in radiometric dating. While Carbon-14 tests are limited to about 7,000 years, other isotopes can date material to billions of years and the gambit running between. We pick the isotope or isotope pairs most conducive to the time period involved. You clearly do NOT understand how the process works or the science involved - yet for some reason you actually have the balls to dismiss it.
Fucking hilarious.
Wait, not hilarious, just sad.
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
You mean the thing he said at a trial that never happened ever? Also, about that carbon dating thing, how do you feel about being shown wrong by a factor of ten?
A quick Google search reveals that Edward Blick is a "scientific" creationist. From reading this site it appears that the source being cited is "the monthly newsletter [...] from Southwest Radio Church, Bethany, Okla.", which "had as its cover piece, “Laughing at Evolution.” by Edward Blick. A newsletter article from a church does not really count as a primary source, unless people from Bethany, Oklahoma sit in at court hearings in Germany. That page also has the only excerpt from the article that I could find, which gives no indication that Blick is doing original research, but is simply quoting something else. If you're going to give us a source, we want to see the actual court documents, not a story filtered through creationist after creationist. Also, about that carbon dating thing, how do you feel about being shown wrong by a factor of ten?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
nobody is stating that Christianity is the first religion. If you actually read (from how you are stating things, i don't think you have read the Bible, the Qur'an, or anything like that, its almost as if you are taking somebody elses OPINION and making it your own OPINION. The donkey itself didn't talk, the bush itself didn't talk, are you familiar with the term theophany?
with the rigor mortis, im assuming you are talking Jesus rising from the dead. His FLESH did not survive rigor mortis, that is why He died. HE CAME AS A NEW PERSON.
im going to say what everybody on this board says to Christians right now my friend, and that is SHOW ME EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE of your claim.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
SHOW ME EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that Zues does not exist. Show me empirical evidence that Vishnu does not exist.
A new person just "Poof" instantaniously became flesh so the doubters could touch him? You like making this stuff up. Typical playdough logic, when caught in a lie you switch it to justify it.
Theophany= a visiable manifistation of to human kind of God or god.
So, was the snake and donkey a puppet? So god made it appear that they talked? And you have evidence of this? Because the bible says so? " I read it in an ancient book and humans are never capable of lieing"
You have evidence? No you dont. You just like believing it.
I hear the circus music playing.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
BRIAN37, YOU ARE DANCING AROUND THE CHALLENGE JUST SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER IT. ITS NOT GOING TO WORK, SHOW ME EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. WHERE IS MY EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE? THE MANIFESTATION OF THE HOLY GHOST IN MY LIFE....MY PERSONAL TESTIMONY. I HAVE MUCH MORE TO TESTIFY ABOUT, BUT YOU CAN FIND WHAT I HAD WRITTEN AT THE TIME IN MY MYSPACE BLOG.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Okay, buddy boy. Look at your keyboard. Three keys up from the bottom, on your left, there is a button called Caps Lock. See it? Okay, press it again. You seem to be accidentally bumping it by accident when you capitalize the first letter of a sentence or proper names. Ooopsie daisy! But that's okay, no need to thank me. I just like to do my part. I should be in tech support.
Anyway, regarding EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.
"I do not think that word means what you think it means."
One persons testimony of "feelings" and stuff that happens that you happened to pray to happen are NOT empirical evidence.
Say I have a feeling that it might rain. And then it rains. I therefore deduce that I have rain-predicting psychic powers. That's ludicrous, right? Say someone asked me to prove it. I would reply, "Well, I just know." This is not testable in a lab. It isn't empirical evidence. That's the argument you're giving.
I LIKE CAPS
IF YOU HAD RAIN PREDICTING PSYCHIC POWERS YOU SHOULD PROBABLY BE MY GIRLFRIEND SO I KNOW WHEN TO PUT THE TOP UP ON MY JEEP, IF YOU HAD THESE POWERS YOU COULD PROBABLY "LABORATORILLY" TEST THEM. PLUS IF IT IS A REPETATIVE THING, HAPPENING ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, GETTING IT RIGHT EVERY TIME, STATISTICALLY THE PROBABLILITY WOULD BE HIGHER EVERY TIME YOU PREDICTED. NOW IF IT ONLY HAPPENED ONCE, THEN IT WAS PROBABLY A LUCKY GUESS.
BUT SERIOUSLY IF YOU DO COME OUT TO HAWAII AND LIVE WITH ME CUZ KNOWING RAINFALL OUT HERE WOULD BE PRETTY AWESOME.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
No one else does. Stop it.
What... what just happened here?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
its a little thing called sarcasm
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You're not very good at it.
Hey, how about this; if you want to make yourself look really clever, how about you address what glamourkat posted? You could also try doing the same with everyone else's posts.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
I have done that friend, but i get the impression that you failed to look at my testimony
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"Testimony"? All I've seen you do is dodge some very valid points made by todangst, yellow, glamourkat and brian37. I've read all of your posts, including the really bad ones typed all in upper case. Here's a clue. The following is not an adequate response:
"READ THE BIBLE. NO REALLY READ THE BIBLE."
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
A quick synopsis of JLY's tactics in his last few posts:
1. Totally ignores Y#5's complete destruction of his claim that radiocarbon dating is inaccurate and limited to 5400 years ago
2. Totally ignores JeremiahSmith's total debunking of his claims about the Blick non-trial
3. Attempts to shift the burden of proof on Brian37 by asking him to prove that jesus did NOT resurrect in the flesh
4. Accuses, in all caps, Brian37 of dodging when Brian37 goes straight to the heart of the issue by asking him to prove Zeus and Thor do NOT exist
5. When confronted for his rude use of all caps by GlamourKat, goes into complete troll mode by purposely responding with a long post in all caps
JLY, you are now officially a troll. Back to your swamp, creature!
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Immaculate was right. You aren't very good at it.
My point was that personal testimony from you "experiencing" god, is not empirical evidence. And yes, if it was true that someone had psychic powers, it COULD be empirically "LABORATORILLY"(sic) tested.
Same as with the holy spirit and god.
Unfortunately, no one has proven any of that in any way.
You failed to address this.
personal testimony = not empirical evidence
working hypotheses that are testable using observation or experiment = empirical evidence
Empirical = dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses.
Nothing you have said proves god at all.
Personally testimony most definitely does NOT count as empirical evidence - do you believe some crazy guy in the loony bin actually is Napoleon just because he thinks he is? It's the same thing.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
How does it feel, you slimy little bastard? Why not reply to myself and Y#5, where we point out your miserable knowledge of radiocarbon dating? Or where I point out that your little Haeckel trial story never happened, and your only source was from a creationist in Oklahoma whose writing shows he's clearly not an original source?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
I don't think you have read it my friend.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
How does it feel, you slimy little bastard? Why not reply to myself and Y#5, where we point out your miserable knowledge of radiocarbon dating? Or where I point out that your little Haeckel trial story never happened, and your only source was from a creationist in Oklahoma whose writing shows he's clearly not an original source?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Okay, first of all, I am not your friend. Friends don't post-dodge.
And second, I read your lameass blog.
It proves nothing.
Here, I'll repost it for all to enjoy.
Not empirical. Not empirical. NOT EMPIRICAL.
Nothing in that proves anything. Jesus got you off of a hit-and-run case? WTF. How did jesus do that? Why would jesus do that? Nothing you've stated is proof at all. Lots of people get out of lives of unfulfilling one night stands and drugs WITHOUT god.
"i was still in a secular state of mind so a month later i got in a bad relationship with a girl and i got torn away."
That doesn't even make sense. What happens when someone's in a secular state of mind and something great happens because they made a good decision? Can't you take responsibility for your own actions?
It seems you're pointing out your OWN bad decisions and saying, "It was 'cause I didn't have god."
Meanwhile, back at the ranch and on-topic:
Really good ancient mythology/religion site....
Fascinating stuff. I'm a huge fan of Mesopotamian beliefs.
Meta-Religion
The founder of the site is not of any particular faith, but he believes the common threads running through most religions proves a certain truth about it. He's searching for the "Metareligion".
The ultimate religion. It may be an utopical universal religion where every religion is born. ~Cassiel Sophia
For me, as a big fan of Joseph Campbell, this site's pretty cool, but, well, I don't believe any of it. I've read too many "man was created from dirt/water/bananas" stories to think there's any evidence for any of these myths.