My own mother just last week never understood the hatred aimed at us by Christians untill I showed her the Youtube video of that jerk calling us scum. Now she understands why I take the stand I do.

HAVING SAID THAT.

Although we are unafriad to speak out and we do blaspheme religion, it is not because anyone here wants to forcably end religion. From a pragmatic standpoint that is a stupid idea for anyone of any label to consider.

HOWEVER, atheists are justified in their anger. Not at the fact that people believe, but because they use those beliefs to justify treating us as evil. Because they think we are incapable of compassion, or caring or love.

We are going to take that word back and give it back it's simple original meaning from the Greek meaning, "Without god(s).

We are no longer going to put up with hatred toward us. I do not recomend hate speech laws or hate crime laws to institute thought police to do such through OUR goverment. Merely to rally the non-believers to take a stand against anyone who blindly condemnes us without getting to know each individual.

The Christians that are not afraid of us and are willing to get along with us and do not see us as a threat we do appreciate. But they have to understand that we cannot and will not put up with people calling us evil or demonizing us anymore.

Generation after generation humanity has saught a foe, and most of the time the foes we create are within, not because someone wants to actually harm us, but because we refuse to see each other as individual autonomous human beings with individual thoughts.

Native Americans and blacks in Americas early history went on to Irish in the North in 1900 allong with the condinued discrimination of blacks, then it went to gays and in many places there is still that unfounded needless fear of them.

We are simply the next popular target in a long string of humanity's inability to see others outside the label as human.

Most atheists I know, and I cant speek for all, are not interested in the forcable end of religion. Most are confident if freee inquery and debate in an open market of ideas, will be able to show people who we really are and what positive things we are about.

BUT if any person thinks they will ever silence us, or that we are subhuman, or that we should shut up. You will be dissapointed. We'd rather be nice and debate freely. But we wont ever back down from bigotry or deception! 

You want to be friendly, we can do that. But dont call us evil and dont treat us like scum. WE WONT PUT UP WITH THAT ANYMORE! 

"Forcing" anyone to do anything is totally counterproductive.  I know because I was forced to do a lot of things for the first 18 years of my life: lots of FUNDY things.  Barf.  By 1989 I was no longer a Christian, but my atheism only completely solidified following the attacks on 9-11.  Of course, a lot of incidents, study and deep thought had gone into the decision previously.

One reason I'm concerned about moderate and liberal Christians is they were the first to cause me to question because they don't believe in biblical inerrancy.  I ran across these people at a Christian university and fought against their pacifism and religious/political liberalism for four solid years.  I was obnoxious.   Now, many years later I agree with many of their political positions, but totally tossed religion out the window.  I don't think I could ever be a pacifist, either.  I like violent video games too much. I don't necessarily fall into line on all liberal political issues.  I learned to dislike dogma too much.

My main concern is I don't know if I would have listened to a hard-line atheist like Sapient (or my current self, for that matter).  I had enough trouble with the moderate / liberal theists.  I was thoroughly immersed in fundamentalist Christianity: home, church, school, friends.  There was not a single facet of my life that did not revolve around fundy Christian principles.  When I got the first taste of an alternative view--liberal Christianity--it sent me reeling.  (Today I'm pretty pissed off about the brilliant brainwashing job perpetrated against me by my parents.)

During those college years, I would have sounded like the angry theists that come here to rant.  I'm not sure why I don't feel much compassion for them.  I guess I'm still pissed off at the indoctrination.

Because there is a very emotional component to my atheism, I want to tread carefully.  I've always hated extremism (if that isn't an oxymoron in and of itself), so I don't want to be pulled into an extremist position.  

Of course, a very large component of my atheism is based on logic, as well.

I am mostly concerned that taking a verbal hard-line position against moderate Christianity would be self-defeating because fundies often need to become moderates before they can become atheists.  This is illustrated in Dan Barker's book, Losing Faith in Faith.  Mr. Barker became a moderate Christian before he was able to completely toss away the yoke of theism.

I'm concerned that you aren't giving theists a place to stop and rest before they go that extra mile. 

I'm wondering...how many here are former Christians?  Did you become an atheist immediately or did you become a moderate Christian (or Pagan or Wiccan or whatever) before you felt comfortable enough to make that last step? I know of a lot of ex-fundies who retreated to moderate Christianity or some other less obnoxious religion.

Maybe RRS is forcing the moderates to examine their beliefs.  Maybe such a hard-line position makes theists so defensive they'll never abandon irrationality. *shrug* 

My own opinion is that theism (and all supernatural claims) are irrational.  When I dropped that bombshell on a nominally Christian friend of mine, she became rather defensive.  She believes that faith is a legitimate path to knowledge.  Of course, any rational person realizes that's total bullshit because if faith led to knowledge there wouldn't be a bazillion different religions.  Sigh.

Well, my ultimate goal is not so much the erasure of religion, as I believe evolution is taking care of that for us. I'm just doing my part in the long run. And, in all honesty, I could care less what people believe in generally. If people want to exercise their imagination by believing in a god, that's fine. Everyone has their own escape from reality.

My real problem with religion is that it negatively affects others in multiple ways. That it is forced on everyone without their consent. The very calendar is a theistic disgrace. Do an in depth look at your immediate surroundings and you'll find a thousand different ways religion has snuck into your life against your will. This is what I intend to stop. If people don't like it, then they should stop being hypocrites and help me and others like me. My side is guaranteed to win, as we have the global majority. We even have theists working for the goal, since the theism being forced on them is against their own theistic beliefs.

Once religion has stopped being advertised so sneakily, and being presented as fact at every corner, I'll relax. The rest will work itself out. This is still unlikely to happen in my lifetime, but I will not stand around being lied to without speaking up against it.

Yes, I understand this. In my opinion they betray faith and reason equally. However, I'm wondering if moderation is useful for society because 1) it gets fundies to question their ethics (which it did for me) and 2) it is a place to which religionists can retreat to catch their breath.

I'm worried that if we expect them to do "all or nothing" they will do nothing. I'd rather have religious moderates than the bigots I've dealt with for most of my life.

We'll have to save this topic for later. I've lost my "faith" in Homo sapiens.

So, I guess I'm weighing the benefits of moderation (partially listed above) against its many flaws (also partially listed above).

Convince me that religious moderation's flaws are fatal flaws and that taking a hard-line stance can be as productive (or more productive) than allowing religious moderates to address their fundamentalist counterparts, which they do.

The first chink in my wall of faith was put there by religious moderates. I'm not convinced I would have listened to an out-and-out atheist. I'm also not convinced that fundies can be converted straight to atheism without stopping off for awhile in moderate-land (or some other less legalistic religion). I think most of them may need to retreat in small steps. Many (most?) deconversion stories I've heard included time spent as religious moderates.

Unless a study is done, this is all purely anecdotal, I guess. Could we at least do a head-count here and other places on the net? I believe this may be an important consideration, if for no other reason than to understand the psychological aspects of deconversion.

Believe me, I'm entirely on your side. There's a bloody good chance faith is going to get us all fucking killed. I'm just not sure that a hard-line approach is terribly productive in converting the religious.

One thing the hard-line stance does is shore up the "choir." I think more people will come out of the closet. Richard Dawkins gives me a great deal of hope. I thoroughly enjoy listening to him and I'm sure many of us have thought, "That's just what I've always wanted to say!"

Is this part of it enough? If atheists become more organized, that's great. Of course, there will be one helluva backlash.

Why atheists take a hard line and why theists should too.

The following is an example of faith being defended. You could repace the word Egle Scout with Cleric and Christian with Muslim and you'd still have the same "I'll teach that unbeliever" mentality.

THE FOLLOWING IS EXACTLY WHY WE CHALLENGE PEOPLE TO EXAMINE WHAT THEY BELIEVE BECAUSE WHEN PEOPLE DONT THE FOLLOWING CAN AND DOES HAPPEN

http://www.parallelpac.org/murder.htm 

Because we as humans are altruistic creatures concerned for the entire well being of other human beings.

----Because of that statement alone, you have really seemed to learn very LITTLE from your existence. Is it not so hard to believe that in fact:

A:No Human(other then your mother) really could care less about your "safety"

B:A society has given us ALL reason to not care about each other.





If you can't take that, under NO religious circumstances, or Scientfic, but maybe as a completely NATURAL statement, then is it really a no fucking brainer that Christians HAVE been dominating the world for a long time?

None of you are thinking about the fact that, your fundamentalist mother CANT and WONT think like you, not because she wants to be ignorant, but because EVERYONE has been telling her that what she believes in is CORRECT.

So What exactly are you atheists really trying to do in this world? Deconvert Christians? Because none of you are succeeding. Have any of you deconverted a Christian, or a Muslim? Why do you even want to deconvert them?

Don't ANY of you realize that the ONE COMMON thing in all of these WORLD religions, IDEA and EMOTIONS that are PERMANENTLY engraved in all of their head... do any of you see that the COMMON GOOD GOAL is for the BETTERMENT of HUMANITY and for the worship of GOD?

So think of that. And then ask yourself, that if there WAS a world religion under the idea that...hey, there might be a God and there might not be, and let them keep their convictions.. then--

Why won't these GOD worshipers WORK TOGETHER? Can any of you answer that to me? And don't tell me that its because Jehova hates Allah. Because then, you just insult my intelligence.

Can't any of you see why I HATE ALL PEOPLE. Because all us are so FUCKING IGNORANT.

Ripple, I seriously think there is something wrong with you. I'm not saying that to be a smartass.  You literally aren't making sense.  Your responses are completely off-topic and sound like stream-of-consciousness rather than well-thought-out questions or responses.  If you can, for a moment, stop and think about that.  When someone in another thread suggested you sound manic-depressive, I'm not so sure it was intended to be funny.  You do sound manic.  I am not a manic-depressive, myself, but I have and do suffer from other issues involving brain disorders.

Usually when I'm at my worst, the things that hurt me the most cause me so much pain that I cannot think rationally about them.  To me you sound like you want the answer to life, the universe and everything (it's "42" by the way ) and you want it now.  You're going to need to find your center before you can proceed further.

With that in mind, I'm not going to respond to your posts because I think you need something besides rational debate right now. 

No, man. I don't want it now. Because I know I'll have it when I die. That's a personal, religious conviction I'm worth fighting for, and that is the only conviction or belief I'll ever have.


As for being all over the place, no I'm not really.


I too believe the answer to the universe is 42.


What if I told you I have no emotion, no desire to do or seek anything in this world, other then to make some of you think.


What Is my center in life? It's the same center Albert Einstein had.

----Where, when, how, and does God meet Science?----

Call me fucking Crazy, and call Einstein crazy, but then, isn't Science and God as ONE idea, ONE conviction, ONE religion...Is that really Crazy? Yeah a little. But the world has not gotten very far if all crazy people were never born.



(I know there is something wrong with me, it's called being a pacifist, can't you see that I want to just go on a rampage right now)

Iruka,

Thanks.  You actually summed up my overriding belief in your response to my essay!

Maybe if more atheists come out, it will get less hard, but I did it alone and it was so. fucking. hard.

That's what I'm doing. 

I have no delusions about converting hard-liners.  It will be at least a couple of generations at a minimum until there can be a real hope of diminishing the power of Christianity and the other big religions.

I experienced a very similar set of emotions  when I left religion, and I'm trying to encourage other atheists as much as de-convert Christians.  I'm convinced that there are many, many more atheists than most people imagine!  I want my boldness to be an encouragent to them, and I also want to prod some of them out of complacency by demonstrating the danger of religion. 

I think you're right. I had one friend say to me, "I'm an agnostic, but sh! Don't tell anyone!" She was afraid the choir director would find out. Me? I told the choir director directly, "I'm an atheist." After we agreed not to discuss religion, he tried to convert me when I was at a low point in my life. I lost all respect for him and learned that I cannot be friends with fundies. The agnostic mentioned above had me thinking I could.

The "agnostic" moved out of the area, but says she wishes she could believe in god. She said she used to wish she had been indoctrinated until she saw that it didn't "take" with me. Whatever.

I've decided that religion and faith cause people to behave like assholes. I'm through with the faithful, at least when it comes to personal relationships. And I think my "agnostic" friend needs a wake-up call. She was great at minimizing both the negative effects of religion on society and upon me as a recipient of brainwashing. I've sent her a few Dawkins and Harris videos, but there's been no response.

you've just unwittingly agreed with me.  it's not the goal of the religion, it's just what its followers are told so they'll feel like what they're doing is right and good.  if i could go around shitting in people's mailboxes, and convince other people that by shitting in their mailboxes, they'd be doing their part to better the world, would that make the world a better place? 

the bible says that by killing everybody that doesn't believe in it, its followers are making the world a better place, and furthermore, that we don't have to concern ourselves too much with bettering the world, really, because if we fuck up the whole planet, and we all die, it's ok, that's just called armageddon, and though it may seem horrible, it's really just big ol' smilin' jesus, comin' for to carry us home....

 nope. just stop participating in it.  it's lunacy.  the history books will say "21st century, Lunacy Ended."  and we'll all be like ,"rad, weren't we all so lame back then?" and have a good laugh.

the 'world' is not a piece of clay for us to mold.  it's just here for us to live on and act like idiots.  and thus, we end up with you and me. 

uhm....because he's fake.... 

Nice cheep shot. I know what I am doing. You must be a left wing pollitically correct hate speech fan. I do have compaasion for lots of things, pollitically correctness is not one of them. You cant force people by law to like you. No one put a gun to your head and forced you to post here.

Until "Ripple" hijacked the thread, I was getting some interesting feedback.  Please ignore Ripple if you can.  It's pretty damn hard to ignore a personal attack, but I was enjoying the arguments supporting your points of view.

Would it be okay to invite atheists at other sites to contribute to this discussion?  I would like to get a range of opinions to help me process own position. *shrug*

We say this time after time and still get equated to Stalin and Hitler. We do want people to speak freely about religion, but not in a preachy sense. Worshiping anything like that, be it religion or a goverment or a dictator is all the same blind sheepish behaivor and causes nothing but division and opression of those outside the majority.

"Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear".  It really ticks off theists that an atheist quotes this person. I wont say who it is because I'd like the theists out there to do their homework.

First theist to give me the name of the person who said that gets a congratulations. 

I think we need the full spectrum of approaches, from the subtle to the in-your-face, the gentle to the aggressive.

Different believers will respond to different arguments, different angles on the problems of belief. And as an individual starts to work their way thru the process of shedding their beliefs, they will respond to different ideas.

And Ripple, of course people have been de-converted by the sort of arguments presented here.

Point of fact being that there are some atheists (and theists) who advocate socialist or communist modes of governance - I happen to vehemetly disagree with them.

I'm not intolerate of their views; in all honesty, I wish to debate their views with blunt and honest discourse. That's not intolerance, it's saying lets have an honest discussion and put our cards on the table. 

It seems that ONLY when the subject of religion is brought up that mere dissent is viewed as intolerance or intolerable. For some reason we cannot argue about religion as frankly as we would politics, economics or even sports. This is the taboo we wish to obliterate, the free pass we wish to revoke.

If that bothers you as a religious person, you ought to consider frankly why it bothers you. Then you'd better put on a helmet and get used to it. 

Sure, Vastet, post a topic in the "Libertarian Corner and Other Politics" section. It's been a while since I've spanked a Marxist

An economy not based on free market will fail, over time. So in that, capitalism will always be apart of any government that wishes to survive. I do however agree that capitalism consumes us as a race. Quite sad if you ask me...



I know not of who your post is directed to, Yellow, but I could only guess it's directed near me. I think the definition of intolerant can vary wildly.

Aye, I agree that the members on this board are very provactive, no matter how little effective it's been upon me. The fact is, most religiously convicted people who might even attempt to come to a a place like this will get a good toast to reality.

The fact is, the only sustained argument that I keep getting on why I'm irrational is because I can't prove something such as God.

In that, the taste and style of such provocation has been of a decent effort, it still falls very short of shaking my foundation.

Man's foundations shake and crumble when built upon ancient framing.

So I please ask anyone, to just one more time tell me I have a "security blanket" or that I need some force to push my life. Every single one of you has not a clue to what pushes me in life, and for that, to make such claims of that any longer is futile, and would be a waste of finger calories.


What do you mean Atheist "civil rights" movement. Are you kidding? Have your rights been violated, and been intolerable by the rest of the world community, especially being someone who I would assume lives in the United States(I may be wrong)

Why would you even care to start something even a fraction as dramatic as a "civil rights movement"? Do you have something to prove?


I'm all for a world based in KNOWLEDGE. I do have something, and conviction to prove there. But I also realize unknowledge is not soley in the hands of diety-believing people. The fact is, people are people, no matter what they do or do not believe in.

I merely state that there are so many atheists(not many on these boards) that differ no more then any other religious nut. Yes, an atheist may break free of the illusion which is a man's creation, But the fact that many people, atheist or theist, will believe anything as long as the vast majority believes in it.


Science for instance. I'm sure every single one of you base the roots of all existense in science. Science is a wonderful thing in that it clearly defines the world as we know it. All fields of science mesh seamlessly in a web of grace and intellect, in which nearly every thing that we know as reality, mends together in perfect unity.

I however, am hard pressed to think that no more then...4 percent of the world population has even began to ask why. It seems that even most "scientifically based" people of this world have really no more of a grasp upon the scientific world then their theological buddies.

I'm not a Libertarian or a Marxist.  My political views are still developing.  I tried to stay out of politics, but it got impossible when shrub misused the power he gained from 9-11 to basically screw us all in the ass. 

Another problem is that I developed serious health problems that prevented me from working.  SSI Disability isn't enough to live on, so I have to depend on my fundy mother to live.  It's really screwing with my mind.  I don't know how much longer I can do this...all I'm thinking is there should be a way for me to have my independence regardless of my ability or inability to feed the capitalist machine.  

The coldness of free market politics makes me wonder if there isn't a better way.  Communism wasn't the solution.  It seems like people want power and money too much no matter what kind of economic system is in place.

God...I'm so sick of this.  

I am concerned with going overboard, too. It's SO easy to do when one has been through so much at the hands of fundies. I get very, VERY angry. I've been getting angry online and in person, which hasn't won me any friends. It's like I can't help myself. Something inside never got healed. The story is long and complicated, but I got totally screwed over by family and friends. There's still a very uneasy relationship between my family and me. Except for one cousin, they are all bushbots, fundies or a combination of the two. I live in a Republican / fundy stronghold. Luckily, more and more non-fundies are moving to the area and some of the fundies are leaving.

But this is still the site of my indoctrination. I can't drive by the Southern Baptist Church without having flashbacks of being molested. I can't go into the library without having flashbacks of my so-called "friend" trying to cast a demon out of me and telling me not to come back until I trusted Jesus to solve my problems. That ex-friend's fundy mother works in the library. The town is so small, I see someone I know every single time I go out. I run into people constantly who knew me as a fundy.

My status as an out-of-the-closet atheist has put me in a lot of awkward situations. I've had strangers lay hands on me. My mother called my therapist to tell him I was demon-possessed. She later tried to have me committed to a mental institution because I told her to get the fuck out of my life (she was driving me insane). She once abducted me and drove me all around the county, a captive in her car, for "taking the Lord's name in vain." My music professor tried to re-convert me in his basement after promising never to do such a thing. A strange woman recognized me and asked me if "Lori was walkin' with the Lord." I hadn't seen "Lori" in ten years...and what the hell kind of question was that???? I said, "I hope not." What a conversation stopper! My music theory class hates me because I brought up my lack of belief...whoops. I can't keep my mouth shut about religion. I really have come to hate it. And religionists HATE me.

It has been beyond painful.

This is just a sampling of what those fucking religious assholes have put me through.  Is it any wonder I want religion wiped off the face of the earth?  What must refugees from Islam feel?  Their very lives are in danger if they dare to speak out and make no mistake, our Talibornagains would have us all by the short hairs, too, if they could get away with it.

Iruka,

 Wow, sounds like you have escaped from DEEP within 'fundy' territory.  I am very, very sorry to hear of your trials, and that is quite the understatement.  The stance these people have DOES need to be wiped off the earth completely.  I agree with you.

 However difficult this may be to accept, I ask only that you consider that not every single religionist on earth is of the fundy camp.  Granted, their belief system is irrational, inconceivable, maybe even outright ridiculous, but some of them - SOME of them - just want to believe in their God and do right by the world.  For those practitioners, debate and discussion are an open option.  For the 'fundy,' the answer will always be activism.  I stand against Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells, Paul Crouches, Benny Hinns, and every single religionist who practices extremism or fundamentalism.  Let's focus on the real bad guys, and hope every one else can be given salvation through Reason.