Prayer at a public school function
Offline The other night at my daughter's dance team banquet, one of the girls stood up and said a prayer before we ate dinner. My daughter attends public school and the dance team is an activity of that school. Is this a violation of "prayer in school"? I do not mind if someone wants to privately pray...they can pray all day if they want as far as I am concerned, but this is a school sponsered activity and I was offended that they expected ALL of us to bow our heads and pray. The team also prays before each performance (as do the other school sponsered teams such as football, basketball, soccer, etc.). I would love to see this practice abolished but I am not sure if there is anything I can do about it. I live in a xian saturated region so it will be a difficult fight and I probably won't win, but it is worth a try, right?
I have informed my daughter that it makes me uncomfortable but she does not see the problem. (She is Baptist - I did not encourage this. I have given her some leeway on this because she is 18 and trying to "find herself" but I do continue to question her and gently point out the absurdity of her beliefs - she is my daughter after all and I love her but I do not want her deluded.)
Any thoughts on how to handle either the prayer issue or having a child that has chosen to be xian would be greatly appreciated.
- Login to post comments
I honestly wish there was something that could be done, but they have the majority by a long shot so even if you were to come out victorious in some sort of protest the community would likely shun and harrass you for years to come.
If it bothers you as much as it would me I would advise moving, I can't imagine having to live with an entire community of faithful.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."
- Gene Roddenberry
You could fight the prayer events, but I agree that it would cause you problems. It very well could cause your daughter problems, took, even though she's a baptist. The old "guilt by association" thing.
As for having a daughter turning to xianity, yes it's no doubt frustrating. Gently prodding her may or may not be the answer. It depends on the relationship you all have. No doubt you don't want this to be the reverse situation of where she starts pointing out scripture.
Perhaps you could steer her toward rational thinking instead of away from theism. Get her some of the books mentioned on this forum such as "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris and "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.
If she says she believes such-and-such, ask her why she believes it and ask for some type of proof for that belief (remember, the bible doesn't count!) - just like we do here on the forums. Hopefully she's just exploring and hasn't been pulled in by some bible thumper.
Hope that helps.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
I agree with Susan. Personally I would at least bring up the Prayer issue, just express your problem with it and explain why it bothers you. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that. Of course they will though.
As for you daughter, it all depends like Susan said on your relationship. Perhaps she sees you are passionate about your beliefs, and is choosing to rebel against them? You know how children are. But I would just give her material and question her, and ask her to question you. Keep trying to have discussions with her, I think communication is your best bet.
Thank you all for the advice and support!!
You are all correct in thinking this may cause problems down the road if I pursue the issue. My daughter is a senior, but my son is in 6th grade and I don't want to cause issues for him. This may be one of those "pick your battles" situations. For now, the best thing I can do is keep learning, researching and hold my head high when they ask me to bow it in prayer (even if I do feel like a wuss for not saying something).
My relationship with my daughter is incredibly close. She has told me she like the fellowship of church and I feel that this interest will die a natural death once she heads off to college. I do not remember being terribly concerned with logic when I was 18 so I don't push the issue. I can wait until she comes to her own conclusions - lol. In the mean time, my beliefs (or lack thereof) are part of my life and conversation - for example, I do not resort to prayer as a solution to a problem - so it is natural that my children will follow suit and not rely on crutches to get them through tough times. Btw, most theists I have seen congratulate themselves when something goes well; but ask for help when the going gets tough.
Thanks again. I appreciate the feedback!
As a father of a xian you could approach them with two issues you are concerned about:
1. Tell them your daughter, who is a believer, feels they are in violation of Matthew 6:5-6 "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
"School sponsorship of a religious message is impermissible because it sends the ancillary message to members of the audience who are nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community. " U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Santa Fe v. Doe, (2000).
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
This makes me wonder if she's looking more for a sense of belonging to a group with a common purpose. Something that makes her feel "warm and fuzzy."
If, by chance that's the case, maybe finding a group with a mission she's passionate about (such as shelter animals, Habitat for Humanity or a local theater group) would serve the same purpose.
Just a thought.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
In situations like this, I do a number of things. If the dinner has been served, I simply start eating; doing so in such a way that everyone is aware that I've completely ignored the orayer and just started digging in. Sometimes, simply saying "excuse me, could you pass the salt?" is enough. I'll also, especially if I know other atheists are present, simply start talking to people around me about something. I won't intentionally try to drown them out, but I will talk slightly louder than usual. Basically, my intention is to make it clear that I'm not respecting the prayer time, and if they protest than I'll point out the hypocricy in praying in an event where it is not appropriate then complaining that I'm interrupting.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
Thank you soooooo much for this.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."
- Gene Roddenberry
People praying in public thats horrible.How can they ,like they might hurt someone's feelings.Awww
You know what if no should be able to to teach or just express their beliefs in public may'be they should stop teaching evolution in schools or people should just grow up and get over it. And if they're just praying to a God that doesn't exist (in your eyes) Why does it bother you?
Could you restate this a little clearer? It really does not make sense.
You say this somehow under the impression that evolution is pure speculation and that there are not laws in place restricting such displays of faith.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."
- Gene Roddenberry
Thank you wisebob for your insightful and thoughtful response. As I stated in my original post, I do not mind if someone wants to pray privately. It is an issue for me when an entire group is expected to pray at a school function. No one mentioned Allah in the prayer or any other deities so it seemed presumptuous that they expected everyone to pray to the same god. Why does it bother me? Because this was a PUBLIC SCHOOL function. Please feel free to review Randallord's response for additional information.
To everyone else - THANK YOU!! Your responses and advice have been extremely helpful and I appreciate it very much. This is a sensitive issue since it involves my daughter and you all have my sincere thanks for taking it seriously.
Well as far as a kid standing up and praying goes I don't think there's anything you can do, or should be able to do(beyond Shauns wonderful suggestions or something similar anyway). Freedom of speech. But expecting everyone to follow suit is a different story altogether. That would be a violation of church and state. I'd imagine you could sue if they refuse to drop it. Probably won't make you popular, but you don't even have to get involved yourself if you point the situation out to the right group.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Why do they have the right to express their beliefs and speak up when something we do bothers them, but not the other way around? *cough*Troll*cough*.
myspace.com/miyao
I don't think you can win this one by telling your daughter what makes you uncomfortable. That's pretty passive-aggressive stuff, and you don't want to force her to reject what you're saying out of sheer obligation to rebel.
THANKYOU! This is the exact verse I was thinking of a week or two ago in another thread talking about how Catholics go against the bible. Evangelising, attending church and many other catholic activities violates this very passage!
Evolution isn't a belief, it's science. Intelligent Design is a belief. As for people not wanting others to pray in public and getting over it, it's mostly people of other faiths that put an end to things like that happening. Christmas decorations being a perfect example, rarely if ever is it the atheists. Funny thing is, they're generally complaining about decorations that aren't even catholic, but rather pagan and other extinct religions.
Personally I'm against these being removed at times like Christmas though, I see it as a form of censorship. Just put up other decorations along the lines of those used by the people complaining and leave it at that.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/