So I was at a Burger King along Interstate 81 South
at the drive thru window as I was taking my fiancee and her kids to a safari zoo when a bowling pin shaped man comes out of the passenger car directly behind me. He ws walking towards the entrance to the restaurant when he stopped looked back at me, walked towards my side of the car and says "You know, there is no such thing as Separation of Church and State in the Constitution of the United States." I looked at him and give him a smart ass smirk and said "Oh YES there is" he looks back at me and said "No there isn't" and walked into the restaurant.
It is funny how these fucking theist xtians want to shove their religion down our politics. They think they have a monopoly on our government. The problem is, is that these are just sheep, molded to believe what the elitist church leaders want them to so that they are controlled and make people like Jerry Fallwell very very rich. Obviously the revisionist type of history these people are taught in their churches is so twisted that it makes them very angry when they see the truth.
Fact of the matter is this....I was happy that I pissed him off because it is a fact that atheists are becoming more vocal and coming out of the woodworks in places like South West Virginia where there is a church almost at every mile.
It gives me great satisfaction to know that I am pissing these people off just be showing up in their home turf with my multi-racial family and enjoying ourselves. My freedom of speech---speaks much louder than their ignorance and they are getting so angry that the truth is finally reaching them.
Check out my new blog on myspace if you have an account and am on your friends list...regarding our trip to the zoo and camping..it's fun....
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Man, West Virginia?? How do you suvive.....
If you want to get extremely technical about it then he's right.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;".
It doesn't actually SAY Separation of Church and State, though it's clearly understood to be interpreted as such. I've actually heard fundies use that argument so thought I'd throw it in here.
I'm from West Virginia.
You'd be surprised at just how many of us are non religious. I've recently started posting atheist essays and various other information on our local message board, and I've gotten more positive replies than negative.
I think things like the RRS are gaining media attention and that's giving people the courage to "come out" about their non beliefs.
Which is why the "there's no separation of church and state in the Constitution" line pisses me off. It's dishonest.
I try to avoid using "separation of church and state." I just say "the establishment clause."
If anyone gives me grief about it I ask them two questions:
1. Where does the term "separation of church and state" come from?
2. I ask them if they've ever heard of the "Lemon test"
I usually get blank stares, especially with #2. Goes to show that most of these no "separation of church and state" people don't know shit.
is Burger King any good?
actually..it sucks.
I mean Southwest Va.
That has been interpreted over and over and over by the courts and also by our founding fathers to establish a government that is free from the influence of the church.
From Wikipedia:
The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and adding his own thoughts, writes: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."[2]
Another early user of the term was James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights, who often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state" (1819 letter to Robert Walsh). "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" (1811 letter to Baptist Churches). This attitude is further reflected in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which was originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, but championed by Madison. The Declaration guarantees that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination.
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution states that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" Together with the Free Exercise Clause, ("or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the religion clauses.
This has been interpreted as the prohibition of 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress and 2) the preference of one religion over another or of religion over non-religious philosophies in general. The first approach is called the "separationist" or "no aid" interpretation. In separationist interpretation, the clause, as historically understood, prohibits Congress from aiding religion in any way even if such aid is made without regard to denomination. The second approach is called the "non-preferentialist" or "accommodationist" interpretation. The accommodationist interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.
Also, let's not forget the Treaty of Tripoli, which gives you insight into our founding father's implications of the First Ammendment: (again from Wikipedia)
Article 11, reads:
I'll add this: This country was not founded on christian principles, at least not as a constitutional democracy. The reason is simple and historically accurate. This country was essentially founded to escape religious persecution. The founding fathers, being deists, knew that all too well...that is why they decided that a free constitutional democracy has got to leave religion out of government in order to ensure that all religions and non religionists alike are treated equally. It is logically impossible to have a constitutional FREE democracy when you are knee deep in a theocratic dictatorship, which is exactly why people left europe in the first place. And the thing that I don't understand is that these people don't even realize how fucking detrimental it is to religion to have it intertwined with government. The other irony I find here is this, the xtian right is so quick to want to be aided by government, to get money to make theocratic laws..but are so quick to agree that they should not pay taxes. Why is that? You want to be part of this government start by paying taxes.
NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION is God mentioned. The fact that the words "separation of church and state" are not specifically mentioned within the constitution is a straw man argument. It is the implied that matters here, not the words themselves.
Sorry for the long post.... this subjects irks me a bit.
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There's nothing about "free enterprise" directly mentioned in the Constitution, either.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Was this the safari park near Natural Bridge/Lynchburg? That place is a hoot.
LeftofLarry said:
The phrase "Seperation of church and state came from a couple of letters that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists.
Thomas Jefferson said:
My favorite Jefferson quote is...
Start with Jefferson and you'll get a basic understanding of the Constitution.
Ever "hang-ten" on the bow of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier at 30+ knots?
THat's the one.
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Exactly....If they want to argue with the interpretation of the establishment and the free exercise clause of the 1st ammendment, then I highly suggest you start reinterpreting the 2nd ammendment on to what "arms" actually mean. If you want to get technical about things, if you think there isn't a wall separating church and state, then perhaps the literal interpretation of the 2nd ammendment is only applicable to guns that were popular during that time. The point here is this, the intent of the establishment clause and the free exercise clause is exactly how Jefferson put it. This is NOT a government that was founded on christian ideals. The xtian right is once again using strawmen fallacies in order to hijack and monopolize our government. The words "separate church and state" are not in the constitution, but it is clearly implied, based on logic. You cannot have a theocratic state and still be considered a free constitutional democracy, the two are antithetical to each other.
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This is a thread that religious freaks should read. They could use the education. They'd deny it, of course, but it would be in their face!
WE can only hope they get educated.....one day.
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There's a woman who's on a message board I frequent, and she's an Xian fundie. When I pointed out quotes showing that our Founding Fathers even said this wasn't a Christian nation, she said that historical information is just that--history. When history serves their needs, Xians call it factual; when it doesn't, it's fiction.
Hey LeftofLarry,
Do you have a bumper sticker on your car that says something about the seperation of church and state? If that had been me that he approach, I would have assumed it was because of the bumper sticker on my car that reads: The Christian Right is Neither.
Not exactly a church & state message, but I would have been really freaked if he had done that to me without an provocation whatsoever. Unless he was just a weirdo going up to everybody and saying that.
Support the Separation of Church & State!
Freedom From Religion Foundation
Yeah, I have a few bumper stickers on my car. One says "Freedom means separation of church and state" that's what he was referring to. I forgot to mention that part.
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I had a fellow co-worker say to me at the end of the day when we were walking to our cars:
"I wondered whose liberal car that was." I knew what he meant because of the sticker and the fact that he's a fundie.
Support the Separation of Church & State!
Freedom From Religion Foundation
Too bad you didn't have a chance to say something like, "Regardless of whether you agree, don't you defend my right to say it?"
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