Homosexuality: Why we should get to the SOURCE of the hate - RELIGION
Offline So if there's one thing that I've noticed in the gay community is that a majority of them are of faith. Why they remain a part of any religion that advocates their death is beyond me. Many in the community head straight for clergy to back them up when they want to try to win a fight. (Here in Indiana the House committee voted NOT to hold a vote on a gay marriage ban that not only banned it but also "any legal incidences of..." which would also effect straight couples. The faithers are having a fit. Eli Lilly and several other huge corps said they didn't want this amendment.)
Well...on a list I'm on here people are talking about Mitt Romney switching from a pro-choice, pro-gay, anti-gun liberal to a anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-gun nut. I've about had it with their ignoring the real issue at hand here so I decided to send this letter. I'm awaiting the hate mail!
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Mitt Romney. Whenever I say this name my face turns red and I want to spit fire. During the issue of "gay" marriage in Massachusetts he was on television during a hearing and someone asked him if he knew that the Supreme Court found enough evidence to show that gays should have the same right to marry and it was fundamentally unconstitutional to keep them out of the mix...why would he dare want to enact a law that is wholly unconstitutional? He sat there mumbling like an idiot and it was at that moment I realized just how dangerous people like him really are. Unconstitutional or not...if that's what they want then give it to them or else be prepared to constantly defend yourself against their venom.
All of those things that people think he stands for now, anti-abortion, anti-gay, pro-gun blah blah blah...it was only because of his recent brainwashing...er...religion... that he "claims" he no longer supports any of these. Someone who was once considered one of the most gay friendly people does an about face and does everything to bash the very things he used to stand for has ONE cause and one cause only and I think Romney is a PRIME example of this-religion.
On Abortion Romney is quoted as saying: 'I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. I have since the time that my mom took that position when she ran in 1970 as a US Senate candidate. I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years we should sustain and support it.'
On the Abortion Pill: 'Do you support efforts to increase access to emergency con-traception?' "Yes," he replied.
On Gay Rights: 'as we seek to establish full equality for America's gay and lesbian citizens, I will provide more effective leadership than my opponent.' As well, he handed out literature at gay pride events saying, 'Mitt and Kerry [running mate Kerry Healey] wish you a great Pride weekend! All citizens deserve equal rights, regardless of their sexual preference.'
What's interesting is that this organization in Massachusetts working on an extremely anti-gay platform (this is their main issue) actually points all of this out. See http://www.massresistance.org/ and click on "The Mitt Romney Deception." Romney's newfound gay-hating, gun-toting, pro-life tactics are a complete political farce...and I let the gay-bashers do the digging for me to prove that.
What's interesting is that Romney's new book attempts to swing Christians his way. If they actually knew what Mormons believed, would they think otherwise? Here are just a few tidbits found on What is Mormonism.com
The Mormon Church teaches ALL other Churches are wrong; ALL their creeds are an abomination in the sight of God; and all their teachers are corrupt. Mormonism teaches there is no salvation outside the Mormon Church and no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. Mormons are taught to doubt the reliability of the Bible and their leaders have consistently attacked its accuracy. A basic tenant in Mormonism today is that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan. The Book of Mormon says of the Bible, "The Sectarian Dogma of Justification by Faith Alone has exercised an influence for evil." Mormons are taught to "shake hands" with a messenger to determine if he is from God or if he is the devil. Joseph Smith taught the moon was inhabited by people who dressed like Quakers and lived to be about 1000 years old. Mormons believe that God had sex with Mary.
My point is that Christians are DEFENDING a guy whose faith is all but blasphemous against their deity but they're only getting behind him because he's a gay bashing, pro-life, gun-toting convert. They think that because now he's subscribing to their extremist views that he's a good guy. One reader comment to his book, "Differing faiths can help each other when it is called for." Note how so many will accept someone of a religion that next to spits in the face of the man they worship just because he hates and loves the same things they do. Is it only blasphemous if you're not a gay basher?
I think the whole issue here is that religion provides a shield of protection around anti-gay sentiment and while I realize that people of faith in the liberal spectrum are helping in the fight, I also think that it's rather naive to purposefully ignore the role that religion provides in this all. It fuels the fire in a person just looking for a reason to project their anger. Moreover, do the passive faithful in our support also provide their shelter when they do little to educate others in the same respect for fear of how it will make them look? The "love the sinner, hate the sin" argument does absolutely nothing for our case. I think it's an issue that gets ignored far too often and isn't really mentioned b/c you run the risk of losing the support of those of faith who do support you when so few will. Do you address the individuals making the attacks and remain on the defensive end all of the time or do you proactively address the source of the problem? There's never an easy answer here but I think it's worth at least paying a little more attention to. Without religion fueling the fire of anti-gay hatred where would equal rights be? Personally, I don't think we'd even be HAVING this discussion if that were the case. Despite popular claims, studies show that the number of non-theistic believers in the US has doubled in past 10 years and I think that's one of the main reasons we're seeing this slow increase in a move toward equal rights. Studies also show that countries with the least religion typically do better overall so I think this only adds to our case. Likewise, other studies show that religion increases violent behavior and has a negative effect on the crime rate. Again, something we should pay more attention to.
On another note, I was listening to NPR this morning and I heard (I believe it was Pat Bauer, leader of the Indiana Democratic House) say that the gay issue turned into a heterosexual issue where domestic violence victims may be at risk. Is this how they see this issue? When it affects the heterosexuals then it's time to pay attention to who the law is affecting? It's okay if domestic violence happens within the GLBT community and they aren't protected but let's step up when it affects our fellow straight people? Even to those who say they didn't want the law they may have ONLY said no for the sole factor that it affects straights, not just gays. That right there said a lot to me.
Lynette
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"Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible."
Flemming Rose
“When theists say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission…”
Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”
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www.myspace.com/sugerfilledteen
If you believe that you were born gay, make me understand, not show me hate. I am willing to listen...
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Because this science is reproducible. You site a study that says homosexuality is a choice that is proven to be reproducible, and I'll believe it. So far, all the evangelical "studies" I've read concerning homosexuality just quote alot of unverifiable, phony statistics. There's no science behind them to speak of. You've got something else to present, than present it. Until then, stop purposely ignoring the truth.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
The problem is that it(being gay) can't be attributed to any one factor. Any study anyone shows you will not result in a law of sexuality. There is no one gene responsible for sexuality. Having genetic predisposition towards something does not guarantee that thing.
The idea that it's a choice, however, just as I choose whether or not to brush my teeth after a meal, is ludicrous.
something tells me your not as willing as you make it sound. but i will give it a shot. It might not make much sense now but before i can amke you understand i need you to answer the following questions:
how do you know you are attracted to woman?
why dont you find a man attrative?
how do u feel when you see an attrative woman?
www.myspace.com/sugerfilledteen
http://www.narth.com/menus/cstudies.html, including http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/homorig.html
We can go back and forth on this all day long...but it won't solve the issue of hate will it? That's what we all want I believe, stop the violence?
You know out of these studies, I'm finding that it seems they believe we might be born with sexual orientation, but its envorinment that swings us one way or the other...
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Environment and Genetics combined chooses everything about us. I didn't choose to be straight, though I was lucky enough to be. I also didn't choose to be severely socially phobic or depressed to the point I have often felt sucidal and attempted twice (so far!) That's not so lucky. Did your God choose to make me like this? If so he can go get fucked up the ass by a chainsaw!
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
There is still no specific test that proves it is a choice just like any other choice(like whether or not you want fries with that). Something being caused by ones environment is not a choice, at all. Someone with Multiple Personality Disorder(Dissasociative Identity Disorder) acquired it within his or her lifetime, not from genetics or at birth. Would you argue that this condition is a choice as well, then?
You choose to be depressed, to be happy, to eat some of column a, or to drink the blue pill, to be whatever else under the sun. That is what free will we have...the will to do what we wish with our lives on Earth, but we do not control spiritual choices. The decisions you make throughout your life lead you to the paths you come across...
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
MPD/DID from my understanding of it is based upon tramatic events from the past and how that individual deals with those events later in life. It is not a "split personality" since that is schizophrenia (brain defects with tramatic events) and, as far as I can tell, is due to a person who doesn't deal with their problems and it generates into this..so it would seem that person's choice is what leads to DID and is 100% reversable.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Fuck you if you think I felt to choose to feel that way! You obviously know nothing about biology, psychology, or frankly anything! Anyone with any ammount of sense would know that nobody would choose to feel that way. Please grow a brain and buy a clue! By the way i have a degree myself in psychology and you have no fucking clue what you are talking about - I suspect this is also the case in fields I know less about, too.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
You know this is why I don't like responding to you because you are just far too angry...
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Razor gonna asnwer my questions i mean you did ask me to show you why i believe i was born gay
Double post
MPD/DID from your understanding is flawed. It *is* actually different identities "residing" in one person.
DID is typically created/caused during childhood as a result of a traumatic event like abuse(typically sexual). The child's brain will create an alter-ego to deal with the events as they happen, so that the mind can associate these events with someone else. After enough trauma, this can become a regular coping mechanism.
This is a choice, as far as you're concerned? Whether or not it can be treated has nothing to do with how it is created/caused.
Sorry about that...too many posting at once and I got lost trying to keep up...
Probably from not being attracted to men.
This will sound far from scientific but it's just not there. As a man, for me, it would be more like a feeling of being attracted to myself which while I think I'm decent looking for attration, I myself do not feel any sexual sense from a man's body. That make sense?
This is where I feel sexual towards that person. Personality aside, this is where sexual feelings towards another individual are directed at for me..when that individual is female.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Sorry, maybe I should have clarified. The idea that being gay is bad has permeated society because the vilification began as the result of religion. Same with women. It took women over 200 years to just get equal rights. Early suffragettes attacked Christianity with a vengeance for demeaning women. If someone in America is anti-gay it's easy to see that it's likely the cause of religion. Christians are taught being gay is wrong, their kids pick up on the "fag" hatred (we've all heard "that's so gay" a million times to know that...) and viola, there you have it. In pre-Christian times homosexuality wasn't evil. Hell, the early Catholic church even married gay people without question for nearly three centuries until someone put an end to it. It's all pretty much traceable to religion.
Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”
Try being told all of your life you're evil, disgusting, vile, perverted and worth nothing since you were very young THEN come back and say you don't know why people are angry.
Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”
ok well look at your answers, none of them show that you had a choice but the way you feel instinctivly, and the same goes for me any attraction or sexual feeling for someone isnt by choice, its jsut instinct no choice is involved at all.
i hope that make sense ,
and yes your asnwer for number 2 made sense but i dont see why you feel it would be the smae as ebing attarctive to yourself , thats not anythign to do with sexuality if someone finds them selves attractive to themselves its jsut a big ego
www.myspace.com/sugerfilledteen
Well, technically nobody will say that about me for being depressed/suicidal and having severe social anxiety, but it is true for homosexuals (which I am not.) By the way one of my best friends ever was both gay and Catholic and you wouldn't believe the shit he went through because of it. He wound up in and out of mental hospitals. Unfortuantely at the time I still had respect for religion or I'd have told him to just be gay and give up being Catholic!
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I don't mean it's true they are evil, vile, disgusting, etc, I mean it's true that religious fuckfaces saying that about them just may make them angry.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Or put it another way. can you choose to like the taste of shit? Can you choose to enjoy the smell of shit?
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
I'm not a thin man and all my life I've been called names and addressed as such. I have stupid people tell me stupid things all the time but I don't lower myself to their level....so why should anyone else? It's a waste of energy and time to address such stupidity and what does it get you to be so angry?
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Better to just bust their motherfucking head open and then they learn their ass better not fuck with you!
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
So you can't say you felt those sexual feelings for a woman at all in the same sense that I've never felt them for a man?
haha granted its ego...but I guess because I'm a man and having sexual feelings for a man would be beyond ego for myself...probably not an explaination you've heard before but that's how it always seemed ((shrugg))
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
That's a good attitude to have...and if I recall history that same attitude was shared with many others like neo-nazis and skinheads...
Violence is not the answer because all it does it bring more hatred into your own life...
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Well, technically nobody will say that about me for being depressed/suicidal and having severe social anxiety, but it is true for homosexuals (which I am not.) By the way one of my best friends ever was both gay and Catholic and you wouldn't believe the shit he went through because of it. He wound up in and out of mental hospitals. Unfortuantely at the time I still had respect for religion or I'd have told him to just be gay and give up being Catholic!
I hate to hear about that shit. I know people who had interventions when they KNEW even at the age of 5 that their kids were gay. Some encouraged experimenting with boys to make them not be gay...it's so sad. The American Medical Association, American Pediatric Association, etc. have all come out and said that anti-gay sentiment is wrong on a number of levels. There simply is no reason for it.
Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”