Horns of a Dilemma
Offline Some Background:
I am a recent atheist. It was a gradual shift in my thinking over time. I started xian, moved to pantheism, then deism, and finally arrived at atheism after I realized that God and the afterlife were just a big fuzzy blanket that I could stick my head under whenever the Death bogeyman came around. My wife is xian - not fundy, but a believer all the same. 16 months ago we had a daughter. Wifey had a nasty bout with post-partum depression. She was very concerned about the state of our daughter's soul if she were to die. Wifey wanted to get our daughter baptized. I expressed my concerns about it, mainly that if our daughter was to be baptized, it should be a personal choice that our daughter arrives at after she has thought it through, but since it was more for my wife's peace of mind, I was generally okay with it. The Zoloft kicked in before my wife went through with the whole thing.
The Dilemma:
She is church shopping again. A year ago I would have been fine with a nice liberal church. After my recent paradigm shift, I'm not so sure. We live in the Bible Belt, so I know that my daughter will be exposed to religion, but I don't want to help indoctrinate her. And since I was okay with it before, but not now, it has created some friction. I guess I don't know which is more important - my principles or peace at home.
"When you hit your thumb with a hammer it's nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a special kind of atheist to jump up and down shout, 'Oh, random fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!'"-Terry Pratchett
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This is an incredibly awkward and delicate situation.
Have you spoken to your wife about WHY you became an atheist?
How strongly does she believe? Is there any way she can be de-converted?
How strongly does she feel about your daughter being raised christian?
What kind of reaction would you expect if you decided to not attend church with her?
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
Yes. She does not understand it. Any discussion we have about belief or religion devolves into an argument. It is a bit understandable. She comes from a 12-step family and taking strength from God is a big part of that. So my doubts and questions hit her in a foundation of her world-view.
Her belief is fairly moderate and liberal, but as stated above, it is a fairly ensconsed part of her world-view. I do not think that religion is something that she has put any intensive thought into. She believes in a personal God, but I do not think that she has done any research or study. It is a comfort mechanism for her.
Unknown. My daughter is only 16 months, so any exposure right now is a moot point, but I don't know how firm my wife is on this for the future.
I have already informed her that I would not be attending and she is fine with that.
"When you hit your thumb with a hammer it's nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a special kind of atheist to jump up and down shout, 'Oh, random fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!'"-Terry Pratchett
my suggestion:
Offer to let the wife have the child baptized, but in return, she waits until the child is old enough to think for herself (14?) before doing the church thing.
In exchange for having some water poured on your daughter's forehead you now have time to teach her to think for herself, be self-reliant, understand science and power-exchange and not following the crowd. These are skills that will help her throughout life, and even if she does go to church at some point she will be god-proof.
IMHO, you can't raise a true athiest by sheilding her from religious education, or her first time in church will feel like she snuk into your liquor cabinet when you aren't home. Help her grow up smart enough to see through the nonsense, and athiesm will happen naturally.
So, no real hope of a de-conversion and she only wants your child to go?
Honestly?
If it's going to be a fight, let her take your daughter. What I would do is let mommy take her to church sunday mornings and have your daughter with you on sunday afternoons to learn about science and other myths and world views.
I mean, if its THAT big of a deal to your wife that you'd fight over it, I'd just concede.
Constant fighting or hurt feelings would be far worse than a child who goes to church. As long as you do your part to educate your daughter, then I can't see any real harm.
After all, most of us on this board USED to be christians.
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
Maybe I can help. I have been thru this before. Did you post this story shortly after the birth of your daughter on Reggie's old site?
Anyway, I was married to a xian for 15 some years. I tried to be a christian for two years then told her no more and refused to go to church anymore. W was also open from then on about my opinions about god. We spent the next 13 in conflict about it.
This causes friction..it will always cause friction, especially if your wife is a church going person who believes you must be saved. You are in for a long, tortuous time my friend.
That aside, lets talk about your daughter. First, everyone may not agree with me here,but baptising the kid isn't going to hurt her. Hell, she won't even remember it. Does anyone? If this appeases your wife, go for it. IF you are an atheist, infant baptism is nothing, a mere ritual mostly to appease adults. You gotta give up the small battles and save your ammo for the big ones, as my father used to say.
The bigger picture is religion in general and your adversion to indoctrinating your daughter. My advice is, don't do it. Refuse. Speak the truth always to your daughter. Tell her you don't believe, why you don't believe, why you think people believe, and why it is okay that Mommy does believe(critical! Don't critizise believers because her mom is one..only explain why you think they believe). In a couple years she will ask you about god (and santa, and the tooth fairy). The way I handled these questions was to say "those are myths". When they get a little older, they will ask you what a myth is. Initially the answer should be something like "it is an old story that some people believe" . As they mature, your responses should also.
Otherwise, if at 4, she asked you if there is a god, and you give her a refutation of TAG, you are spinning your wheels. :-}
At some point, you will be the only source and hope for this girl to grow up and think it thru on her own. Demand from her that she don't take your word, or her mom's word for it, that she needs to think it thru and arrive at her own conclusion. Be ready for conlict on this point with your wife...it is coming..and it is ugly.
You will not be able to stop your wife from indoctrinating your daughter no matter what you do. Even divorce won't accomplish that and may even excacerbate it. Just hold your ground, refuse to participate and continue to insist to your daughter that she use her brain.
Finally, if this marriage fails, continue to insist, always, to your daughter that she arrive on these conclusions on her own. Don't ever ridicule her if she says she believes in god. As she gets older, your arguments will make more sense.
BTW, I have a son, 24, and a daughter, 17. My son was an atheist until about 2 years ago. Currently he is a youth pastor, and we get along great. His theology is pretty weak and I suspect one day he will drop it.
My daughter, age 17...agnostic.
My ex wife...still a crazy fundie...still insists my daughter be religious. She tells her shit like "don't ever marry an atheist". crap like that. My daughter holds her in low regard because of it, and my son does as well.
Good luck!
That was the direction that I was leaning. As a recent atheist, I'm still flexing a bit. This whole going to church thing was kinda out of the blue. We've been together for 7 years and never once stepped into a church outside of charity work or voting. We even got married in a secular ceremony on a beach.
"When you hit your thumb with a hammer it's nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a special kind of atheist to jump up and down shout, 'Oh, random fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!'"-Terry Pratchett
No. This is a recent thing.
Thankfully she is not a fundy. I would not have started dating her, much less married her, had her beliefs been that wacky. I guess I should have been a bit more specific about my gradual de-conversion. I have not been xian for about 14 years.
That was the plan. It was for my wife's peace of mind, not my daughter's 'soul'. I'll gladly concede influence over her soul to my wife if I can have infulence over her mind.
"When you hit your thumb with a hammer it's nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a special kind of atheist to jump up and down shout, 'Oh, random fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!'"-Terry Pratchett
Here's a thought. Would your wife post here on the forums? The Kill 'Em With Kindness forum might suit her if she's afraid we'll gang up on her.
If you've read through some of the forums, if a xian can post good questions and thoughts, we've had some really good discussions.
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That is an excellent suggestion Susan. I hope she agrees!