labeling children christian/atheist
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I don't understand why we shouldn't call our children an Atheist child. I do understand people shouldn't call their children christian children they are not old enough to know if they are christian or rather consider themselves christian.
I think we are all born atheists. Lack of belief in a god or disbelief in a god. Well I really consider it more like disbelief in a god due to lack of proof. But that's me.
Children don't believe in a god until they are told about a god. They don't believe what they have never been told about and that to me would make them atheist.
Christians say it's so simple even a child can believe . I say only a child woud believe. But the only reason they do believe aside from the fact that children believe in fairytales is that they were indoctrinated by the parents or family member, they inculcate them at a young age before they can even make a decision on what they themselves believe or don't believe. I think they are atheist until this happens.
I'm not saying bring your child to atheist protests and wear atheist t-shirts. Although I do understand if the parent can't get a baby sitter or if the child is too young to know what is going on around them. I don't think it would be right to get them involved before old enough to decide for themselves even though I consider babies and children born atheist.
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Eh I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand I agree with you in the sense that labeling children as Christians (or Muslims or whatever) is bad as they aren't old enough to really know whats going on. And as you stated we are all born atheist.
However, I generally consider people who label themselves as atheists are people who really have considered all of the possiblities and have found that because of lack of evidence, atheist is the default position that they hold. Labeling a child an atheist to me implies that they have considered all and thats what it comes down to. This is generally what I believe when I hear people like Kirk and other Christians who claim to have been atheists and then converted to theism. Personally I think that they just never really questioned the concept of theism or atheism and then for whatever reason they found evidence to believe in religion.
So going back to your original question, I would generally not label a kid an atheist for the same reason I would not label them a theist. Once they have looked at all of the evidence and beliefs and realize to pick one or the other (and they are old enough to really understand) then fine. However at that point they would be labeling themselves and we just would be following.
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Hi Gizmo,
you bring up a very good point about kirk he was technically still a child or juvenile. From the interview he did many years ago saying "you have to have a lobotomy to believe in (a) god" I would say he did put a lot of though into his decision and was an atheist until he was proselytized by ray, evangelicals. I think had he never been approached by them he would not have considered any possibility of a god in existence. But then again he did hear stories about the god so that would explaine his decision as a teenager/pre-teen to not believe until ray came along.
can't find a quote button, sorry my first reply.
So going back to your original question, I would generally not label a kid an atheist for the same reason I would not label them a theist. Once they have looked at all of the evidence and beliefs and realize to pick one or the other (and they are old enough to really understand) then fine. However at that point they would be labeling themselves and we just would be following.
Another good point. But children can't do that because as we both know they are too young to understand. I think because they are too young to decide the default should be they are atheist (without belief - lack of) until they are told about the god, religion and then they decide for themselves which label applies to them. It's like they don't believe in something they have never heard of. They believe in santa only because they are told about santa giving them presents until they are old enough to question and ultimately told the truth. If they were never told about santa they would not believe in santa or any other childhood nonsense such as leprechauns. They always believe what they are told by the adults they trust and depend on. I keep thinking this same analogy applies to the god and atheism.
I don't think children should be labeled theist either. They may very well not be theists until they are educated enough in all areas. Creation v. Evolution, the bible contradictions, proof, questioning the bible and learning critical thinking, etc etc. So even though they are told about the god, religion etc. depending on the age of the children I consider them atheists then too, even when told they are christian. Christian children are never told atheism exists, they are only told one side the god side, believe to be a good person, get into heaven or burn in hell. They aren't given a chance to decide. With that in mind I consider them brainwashed and unable to decide for themselves. I don't know if I really consider those children to be atheist. But before then I think they are atheists.
What I think I am really saying is we are natural born atheists until we are proselytized, indoctrinated then we must decide.
EDIT: but not natural born theists-christian. That too comes with being proselytized, indoctrinated.
actually, the best label for children is "child". you are their parent, not their dictator; you shouldn't label them anything, because it's not your decision to make. it's theirs. if they're still in single digits they don't really need to be concerned with existential shit just yet; the only thing they need to be concerned with is school and play. let them be kids while they can, they don't need to address theology or philosophy before they can even spell them.
if you "label" them now, you are stigmatizing them, the same way that jw kids are stigmatized, the same way pagan kids are stigmatized, the same way any iconoclastic kid is stigmatized. it's 7 layers of wrong, and it's wholly unfair, sure, but reality is not concerned with what you consider fair; it just is. wishing that they can be atheist kids and not be considered weird, excluded from playdates, and otherwise mistreated by their peers (and worse, their peers' parents) will not make it so. the facts of the matter is that if you label them different, they will be treated different, and by "different" i mean "badly".
but that's just the sociological ramifications. personally, i think the ethical implications are far more compelling.
to wit:
my mom thinks she's christian. knowing my stance, but being more concerned for my children's innocent and everlasting souls, she used many not-so-subtle tactics to insert jesus into their lives. after repeated attempts to tell her to fuckin stop it, she finally asked me one day (and i grant her steel balls for facing my wrath in so doing) if she could take the boys to church with her. i thought about it a moment, and replied
"sure. but wait until they're a little older so that they can truly understand what it's all about, ok?"
church?! what am i nuckin futs?
no. i went to church. lots of them, actually. have some faith in your kids to be able to think. and besides, you love your children unconditionally, just as i do. whether they turn out to be doctors or factory workers doesn't matter. whether they're gay or straight doesn't matter. whether they're atheist or wackass lds doesn't matter. that they're happy is all that matters.
it's not up to us to decide what makes them happy, and it's not up to us to decide what they determine are the correct answers to the riddles of life. as parents, we can only arm them with all the logical weapons we can muster to make the best possible decisions they can, and eventually, either despite or because of our teachings, they will end up making those decisions on their own.
our answers may not be their answers, and i wouldn't have it any other way. if they end up at the same place we're at, which is celebrating the magic of life without needing to worship a cosmic wizard in so doing, only then can we truly be proud, because only in that way will it be of their own volition, and that's the only way that is true.
and if all of that is not reason enough not to label them, remember that they will one day be teenagers (if not already); teens don't often respond well to their parents forcing them to do or think *anything*! lol
that you're pausing to ask this question at all tells me that you're an invested parent, and for that i applaud you. best of luck.
if (born++) {truth=null};
ack, i should read more and write less. if you don't wanna read my little novella, suffice to say that i thunderously second gizmo's post.
man. can't a fella have an original thought any more?
if (born++) {truth=null};
Children, like primitives, will develop their own belief system if allowed to. Generally, the kid believes that the imaginary friend is there, or that some other animist scenario exists. Everything appears more random as a child, and some ordered view should be provided. Information vacuums can be very harmful. I try to explain to my nieces and nephews as scientifically as I can. Most of their questions are about the natural world anyway. "Why is the sky blue? Why do hurricanes happen?"
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
I don't think the question was if we should educate children (I think we would all agree that we should) or even if it's right to raise children religious.
If I read the O.P. correctly, the question seems to be if it's appropriate to label children. For example, even a child being raised Christian isn't a Christian because a person can't be one until he or she actively choses to be.
In this matter, I would agree that it is probably inappropriate to label children anything, either theist or atheist.
They will hit a stage where they will want to define themselves. At four, they are ever so interested in how to use categorical terms. They will come up with the label. I think encouraging the label of "scientist" makes sense.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
i dunno, nero. my oldest son is eight, and though he has tested in the 95th percentile in multiple categories (99th in math), he has not yet come to me and asked about using categorical terms. at 8, he is still shedding his infant primacies and determining identity. he still laughs his head off when somebody farts.
ok, well, i admit i laugh too.
but my mother never labeled me an atheist, and yet i managed to find the path; neither you nor i believe that was due to supernatural effect. we have plenty of time in life to discover ourselves, but not nearly enough time to be pirates and spiderman. encourage thought, by all means, but allow them to play for as long as they can.
atheistic parenting is a pain in the balls. from experience i can tell you to yearn not for the day your child asks you if gramma is in heaven, brights...
if (born++) {truth=null};
I am certain your child is quite intelligent and developmentally advanced. However, your child never showed an interest in how you were related to people he is realated to? He didn't question why grandma is your mom but his grandma? He never wanted to express what he would do as an adult, or what you do? These are all categorizations.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
sry, i was being facetious there. i fully understand the primacy of infancy, and the developmental process involved with honing classifications. i don't want to get caught up tilting semantic windmills, though. by and large, i agree with nearly everything you said: science is definitvely a reasonable and rational path down which to lead a child. the red flag was thrown by the idea of a label, any label, being attached to children.
labels are constrictive and dangerous, and unfortunately we live in an era where the label that you and i readily don and proclaim would inexorably lead to their subsequent stigmatization. indeed, if i shut my mouth at school functions when religion gets touched on, it's certainly not because i'm worried about going toe-to-toe intellectually with the churchie yuppies at the pta; it's their overwhite fake smiles that concern me, and the fact that my son has a crush on their adorable little girl. i worry not after their predictably unenlightened response to her asking them what an atheist is, mind, so much as their contemptibly self-conscious discussion thereafter with other shiny-toothed yuppie parents whose children my son may wish to invite over to my home to play with; i have no reason to expect open-mindedness, tolerance or reason from most parents, since most parents are theists, and i'm not about to light the fire at my own sons' stake burnings, if you'll pardon my grandeur. knowingly causing strife, indirectly or not, in my child's life would very distinctly make me a bad father, and that is a label i am not willing to accept; viz nietszche's fighting dragons analogy.
so my neighbor is wackass catholic, and has no idea of my stances; as i watch his daughter running through the backyard with my son on a beautiful summer afternoon, laughing and screeching and shooting each other with stormtrooper blasters, i am perfectly content not to have it any other way. hell, i'll even throw in an off-handed 'thank the good lord' in conversation every now and then, just for good measure.
fuck proselytization, fuck the good lord, fuck the neighbor and fuck labels, it's all about my boys.
if (born++) {truth=null};
Satchalan
That was.....WOW
I must say I didn't expect this much of a response and certainly not one like yours. You are right the best label is "child".
I am not a parent but there is still time left and maybe some hope left in me. I question theis becaue I hear so many christians calling their their children chirstians and now today more then I ever did in the past the children themselves call themselves christians.
Also I noticed that many atheist parents are now having their children in strollers wearing t-shirts with atheist etc.
Christians tell me all the time that we are born believing but I say no way. their argument is that the HS is breathed into all people just like adam therefore we all have the HS in us. They say indwelt in us. Sigh I just don't believe that, I think we are born atheists originally but later decide for ourselves as you pointed out when old enough to understand.
I wouldn't be surprised if people started asking is your child christian? just like they want to know what adults are.
Now since I am still somewhat new here and don't have the slightest idea how to reply to all. I would like to thank everyone for all of your help. I appreciate learning and sharing our opinions, teachings, guidance. Sorry I took so long to get back if I did. I only just got notified today of replys in my e-mail and I just adopted two cute little 4 mos. old kittens. I must hold and cuddle as much as possible to make sure they become accostume (think that is right word) to people. But Boris runs the minute he see's me coming LOL.
My nieces and nephews ask the same questions just as I did when growing up. I never tell them a god made it that way. I was told that and was disappointed later when I realized we didn't even come from some imaginary invisible daddy like thing in the sky.
Christians tell me it's so simple even a child can understand - wrong - it's so simple only a child would believe or understand imaginary beings as real.
They (we) don't believe in santa until we are told by the people we look up to and trust that he is real. Giving presents makes it appear as thought the santa is real. They do the same with the imaginary god. But then when old enough to decide well that's when we (they) are told santa not real oh but god/jesus are.
I hope these children being labeled christian children grow up to think about this.
Well Fish it looks like it would be wrong from what I am learning from these posts. I wold just naturally consider my children and all children atheists. Until they are old enough to decide for themselves. Really don't like when I hear my child is a christian.
I keep thinking of that jesus camp where these young children called themselves christians.