The Cost of Deconverting
Offline I've been chatting with an 18 year old female theist for about a week, and we'd been talking about religion and our opposing views. The topic got on to how she had been raped (by someone high up in her church - go figure) but how she had found strength from God during the time since, to help her deal with what happened. She had been close to commiting suicide over it.
I brought up God's views on rape, showing her several Biblical passages that showed God allowing his people to rape those they conquered, and the kinds of sexist laws that were in place to do with rape.
She had no idea these things were in the Bible, and was extremely angry at the fact she had thought this god was loving, when he obviously wasn't. Especially when it came to his views of rape. The next day, she told me that she had lost so much faith in this god, she was on the verge of being an atheist. Thinking of going back to church or listening to Christian music is something she may not be able to do again, she says.
So while normally I would have been pleased that I got someone to almost abandon religion, or at least question it as much as she has, this has a bitter aftertaste. To help her in one way, I ended up destroying her safety net. In the long run I can show her other safety nets are available, and of course I'll be helping her out, but just knowing that getting someone to question their faith can bring pain too makes me angry.
I am blaming religion for setting her up for this pain, and I do feel that speaking out against religion is the right thing to do, but it's made me think. It's not all about scoring points and coming out on top of debates. Sometimes there can be unintentional emotional damage caused, and I was wondering if anyone else had had similar experiences they could share.
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Better if she can find some rational way of dealing with it that a delusion.
you've only caused damage if you pulled away her safety net and then walked away. as any long term atheist would tell you, the crutches of religion are only perceived, and easily replaced. i can tell you're well aware of this and sensitive to her need for new answers. i don't think you have anything to feel guilty about. i would guess that she'll be thanking you, in the end.
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
Please tell her that the strength and courage to get past something like that comes from within herself, not from somewhere else.
SHE got herself through this - with perhaps some help from friends and family she could confide in and talk to.
I do hope she turned the rapist in and exposed him for what he is.
The main thing is for others to be there for her when she needs some emotional help.
There are times, too, that professional help might be necessary. Even a rape hot line where she could talk to someone who has perhaps gone through the same thing. (Of course, you'd have to be careful she doesn't get some bible-thumper in either case.)
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I read this and can't help but think, "Remember when you found out santa claus wasn't real?"
Sure, this is to the nth degree but still; finding out santa wasn't bringing the presents hurt my feelings. But I got over it.
Yes this is a horrible thing, but in the end it is better to face reality than cling to a myth that makes you feel better. That just sets you up for worse later.
WWTFSMDFAKB?
Thanks for the comments. The culprit did go to jail, and she has spoken to professionals about what happened. I hope she realizes that it was the people around her who helped her the most.
I told her '...what it means is that you did have the strength to get through it, but that you did it yourself or with other humans, and you should be proud of that.'
I think she'll be okay. Her change towards religion was so fast though I was caught unawares. I've never got someone to question as much as she has within only one week. Of course none of us want to cause pain, but I'm starting to see the (short term) damage involved in overcoming religious belief, and perhaps I just needed to get it off my chest.
In the long term she'll be better off, and I may have saved her future children from being indoctrinated, so I would do it all again. But sometimes it's a messy job.
That's a sensitive situation and you're a good person for helping her through it. A false sense of security is not safe, and although there are withdrawal symptoms, with care she'll be mentally healthier as a result of your friendship.
I'm not sure if it'll help at all, but aside from suggesting she converse with this community with people that understand her pain I can offer two ideas. If you'd like me to give her free copies (about $50 worth) of all the shows we've done so far, I will. Also if you'd like to come on our radio show with her for a little while to discuss these issues we'd be glad to do that too. We of course would express tons of support for her, and explain our backgrounds a little to help her understand her sadness has been felt by others.
We'll be thinking about her!
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Thank you Brian. I haven't been able to speak with her today so far, but as soon as I do (the next day or two, most likely) I will pass on what you said, and hopefully she'll wanna chat about it.
Atheists rightfully accuse theists of victimizing the victim. Hit a druggie at their low point with another adicition(the bible) and all you have done is replaced one adiction with another.
She got raped, and if the entire planet were full of atheists it would still hurt. I wouldnt try to play shrink with her right now. She is vulnerable and needs professional help. Certainly it should be with someone who understands rape without an agenda.
Getting her angrey at the bible at this low point really does nothing but make her boomerange. If she is going to give up theism it should be with a level head outside the context of this horrible event.
Many times at funerals I desperately want to shout, "Where was your sky daddy when". But someone in an emotional state like that who is swayed either way will be making the decision, not on rational thought, but on emotional appeal.
Certainly your arguments make sense. But are best left being aimed at someone who is not in vulnerable postition either way. We hate it when theists do that, I dont think we need to do it ourselves.
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I understand what you're saying. The rape was a few years ago, and it wasn't just the rape passages that made her question things. We covered other things too. She's shown an interest in going on the show (Brian I've sent you a PM) so hopefully all this can be discussed. But you raise some good points.
Not sure who you are talking to. I am Brian37, seperate than Brian(Sapient). Not sure who you were adressing.
But, in any case what is important is that she is able to cope with that event and move on. The only valid reason to give up any position or take a position is evidence.
Morality is definatly an issue if one were to claim an "all loving" deity. But it is not the best reason. The best reason is simple, "evidence".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I PM'd Sapient.
And it's alot more complicated than just 'God allows rape - God doesn't exist.' Obviously, people have to come to their own conclusions, and what I've done is given her some things that she hadn't considered before.
I understand where you're coming from, but there really is more to this and I know I haven't given the entire story here, so it may be my fault.
Edited to add-
I asked her what she thought about your post, and she replied via msn:say yes i have been vulnerable in the past year (ended up in a period of deep depression, ended up in a metnal hosptial), but am feeling a bit stronger now, and am ready to question my faith
I continue to be so very proud of this group.
The people here never hesitate to show genuine caring and compassion for others - including people they have never met and will likely never meet.
There have been hands of friendship extended to atheists and theists alike when times are rough.
Serotonin_wraith, you are a good and caring friend to this gal.
Sapient, you've made a generous and helpful offer.
Everyone else, you've all shown sympathy and empathy for a complete stranger and taken the time to offer thoughts that might help.
The kindness exemplified by this group is impressive.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.