At a loss of words

DelphicRaven
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At a loss of words

I feel like I am trolling because I'm posting so much. I'm not, I promise. I'm just bored, and at work (once again...) Plus, there are so many forums to post on on this website I'm never quite sure where to stick what I want to say! (I'm a rather new poster, can you tell?)

 Anyway, I wrote a blog a few days ago about a lot of things.. it was a rant about missionaries, teaching creationism in public schools, mystics who base their lives on numerology and astrology readings, global warming etc. Well this is a comment I got, and I'm not quite sure how to respond, so I just haven't done so yet. It's one of those "there is so much I want to say and I'm not sure how to say any of it" things. So I'm throwing it out here to see what other people say about it. It won't take long for the reader to realize that the commenter is a theist.

And she said...

First off I appologize in advance for this long post, lol. I am frustrated as well with the idea of what to teach in schools, and I agree with you that we should teach science...seperation of church and state is a good thing. However, I think that it is a shame if someone believes that science and religion can't co-exist. I personally can't think of anything in my religion that truly clashes with science. Mostly that is because each is so full of mystery and open to change and enlightenment. Personally I find it quite easy to believe in both evolution and the creation. Natural selection is obvious to me...Man has changed over the milleniums, species change, couldn't God use evolution to his advantage? I do NOT believe that man evolved from apes, but I also believe that this world was NOT created in 7 days. Couldn't the truth be found somewhere in between? I've been thinking a lot about this lately, and I'm stuck on two different points of view. One, that "science" is only a way for us humans to sort out the curiosities and laws that have existed since before man, maybe even before God, since the beginning of all creation and the universe. That would mean that God is beholded to certain laws that govern the endless universes (which some might say takes away God's omnipotence, but I don't think so). My second thought was that "science" exists only as God wills. He knows humans would go absolutely crazy if we could not figure out a way to explain this world around us with structured, solid evidence such as math/physics/science etc. Therefore the laws exist as we know them, for our benefit, but that God could bend or redefine these laws at any time. Just a couple of thoughts, I probably will never know. But I don't believe that there is no evidence of God. The world as we know it has been shaped by the belief in God or gods, our history is full of it, it has been a part of our lives and the human race since as far as we know. Miracles are claimed to happen every day. The evidence is just of another sort, it requires faith to see. I guess I see it that neither God nor science can be completely proved or disproved, so neither should be completely ruled out. Anyways sorry for the long post just wanted to share some ideas that were kindled by your spark.

Prayer: How to do nothing and feel like your doing something.


marcusfish
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Quote: and I agree with

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and I agree with you that we should teach science...seperation of church and state is a good thing.

We're off to a great start.

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However, I think that it is a shame if someone believes that science and religion can't co-exist.

I don't see why science and religion can't co-exist. One is reality and one is fiction. So long as we understand that they get along just fine.

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I personally can't think of anything in my religion that truly clashes with science.

Any claim of the supernatural clashes with science..on a very fundamental basis.

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Mostly that is because each is so full of mystery and open to change and enlightenment.

An odd attempt at legitimizing religion while making science sound mystical at the same time. You could see unanswered questions as "full of mystery" if you were hoping to write a dramatic paperback about science. Otherwise it is just full of mystery because you haven't done enough reading on it. 

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Personally I find it quite easy to believe in both evolution and the creation.
 

That's because you believe in an all powerful super-wizard. Starting with that foundation you could believe just about anything.

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Natural selection is obvious to me...Man has changed over the milleniums, species change, couldn't God use evolution to his advantage?

God? You mean if He were real? Sure, why not.

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I do NOT believe that man evolved from apes

Then you do not believe in evolution.

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but I also believe that this world was NOT created in 7 days.

Then you do not believe in creationism.

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Couldn't the truth be found somewhere in between?

Between science and imaginary super-wizards. Errm...I guess anything is possible?

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One, that "science" is only a way for us humans to sort out the curiosities and laws that have existed since before man

Correct.

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maybe even before God

Which would be when?

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My second thought was that "science" exists only as God wills.

 So science is arbitrary based on the will of an imaginary super-being. That's good to know. 

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But I don't believe that there is no evidence of God. The world as we know it has been shaped by the belief in God or gods, our history is full of it, it has been a part of our lives and the human race since as far as we know.

You are confusing proof belief in the existance of god with proof of god. They are two completely different things, obviously.

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Miracles are claimed to happen every day. The evidence is just of another sort, it requires faith to see.

This is true. It is this precise faith that I have which enables me to see Invisible Pink Unicorns and light shows created by superwizards. We agree completely.


magilum
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It's a long post, but

It's a long post, but there's not much to it.
1. Invocation of "mystery" = "god of the gaps." This is the basic theme of the whole post.2. Possible appeal from ignorance. She doesn't know how science excludes specific religious claims, so there's no clash.3. Idiosyncratic religious interpretation. She picks from a vague concept of evolution and creation, and tries to intermingle them arbitrarily, with no justification given for the specific claims accepted/rejected.


DelphicRaven
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The whole thing is just

The whole thing is just damn dumb. I thought that she was done ranting about how wrong I am, but when I got home from work today I looked and lo! She had written a blog about HER view of science and religion, which is a direct quote from Brigham Young (mormon prophet.. or rather profit.) Which said:

"It was observed here just now that we differ from the Christian world in our religious faith and belief; and so we do very materially. I am not astonished that infidelity prevails to a great extent among the inhabitants of the earth, for the religious teachers of the people advance many ideas and notions for truth which are in opposition to and contradict facts demonstrated by science, and which are generally understood. Says the scientific man, "I do not see your religion to be true; I do not understand the law, light, rules, religion, or whatever you call it, which you say God has revealed; it is confusion to me, and if I submit to and embrace your views and theories I must reject the facts which science demonstrates to me." This is the position, and the line of demarcation has been plainly drawn, by those who profess Christianity, between the sciences and revealed religion. You take, for instance, our geologists, and they tell us that this earth has been in existence for thousands and millions of years. They think, and they have good reason for their faith, that their researches and investigations enable them to demonstrate that this earth has been in existence as long as they assert it has; and they say, "If the Lord, as religionists declare, made the earth out of nothing in six days, six thousand years ago, our studies are all vain; but by what we can learn from nature and the immutable laws of the Creator as revealed therein, we know that your theories are incorrect and consequently we must reject your religions as false and vain; we must be what you call infidels, with the demonstrated truths of science in our possession; or, rejecting those truths, become enthusiasts in, what you call, Christianity."

 In these respects we differ, from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular. You may take geology, for instance, and it is a true science; not that I would say for a moment that all the conclusions and deductions of its professors are true, but its leading principles are; they are facts-they are eternal; and to assert that the Lord made this earth out of nothing is preposterous and impossible. God never made something out of nothing; it is not in the economy or law by which the worlds were, are, or will exist. There is an eternity before us, and it is full of matter; and if we but understand enough of the Lord and his ways, we would say that he took of this matter and organized this earth from it. How long it has been organized it is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it. As for the Bible account of the creation we may say that the Lord gave it to Moses, or rather Moses obtained the history and traditions of the fathers, and from these picked out what he considered necessary, and that account has been handed down from age to age, and we have got it, no matter whether it is correct or not, and whether the Lord found the earth empty and void, whether he made it out of nothing or out of the rude elements; or whether he made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject. If we understood the process of creation there would be no mystery about it, it would be all reasonable and plain, for there is no mystery except to the ignorant. This we know by what we have learned naturally since we have had a being on the earth."

And that's that... that is, in a nut shell, the whole entire philosaphy behind her damn life. That's what she thinks, and because a prophet said it, it makes her just THAT much more right. What pisses me the hell off (what I'm stewing on right now) is how these damn christians seem to think they are so much better (more intelligent etc) than those of us who AREN'T christian. I can't stand that. Nor can I stand the "someone who's REALLY special said something REALLY cool before I thought of it, so that's naturally my philosaphy on life.." outlook. grr!!

I never really paid attention to think kind of stuff before. (I'm really good at ignoring stuff.)

--Sarah--

Prayer: How to do nothing and feel like your doing something.


Susan
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DelphicRaven wrote: That's

DelphicRaven wrote:
That's what she thinks, and because a prophet said it, it makes her just THAT much more right.

Oh, I don't know.  One doesn't have to be terribly bright to copy and paste.  I feel pretty sure that copying and pasting Joseph Smith or Bringham Young doesn't do much for helping raise one's IQ level. 

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DelphicRaven
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I agree completely.. it's

I agree completely.. it's just incredible to watch people flush their thinking minds down the toilet.

Prayer: How to do nothing and feel like your doing something.


Teresa Nichols
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not flushing our minds . . .

. . . as long as you're not flushing yours and you're doing what you can to end the waste and oppression of such religious brainwashing.  Thanks for being here; it can really be crazy-making to note how many, many people flush much of their minds into the septic tank of religion. 

My entire family is flushing away as I write, moment-by-moment, day-by-day, caught up in a religious cult which tells them to shun their own daughter/sister/neice because she (I) disagrees with their crazy POV.  It's just sad, really.


Susan
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Teresa Nichols wrote: a

Teresa Nichols wrote:

a religious cult which tells them to shun their own daughter/sister/neice because she (I) disagrees with their crazy POV.

Their loss; not yours.

 

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