Evolution. Why no spear after 183 million years when you can do ICBM nukes in 3 million years?

marketRiver
Posts: 4
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Evolution. Why no spear after 183 million years when you can do ICBM nukes in 3 million years?

I watched your ABC debate on God vs Atheist. I was raised a Christian in the states. But I would not call myself an atheist or a religious person. I simply am not afraid to say “I don't have enough information to pronounce what created and developed life on earth”.


I have a challenge for your website to answer and for Science at large to answer. It took only 3 million years for the evolutionary “system” to to develop Australopithecus Africanus all the way to Modern Humans with 230 million transistor Playstation 3s and Nuclear weapons. So in a sense it can be said that the rate of change is 1 nuke per 3 million years.


The challenge for you to answer is why, if the Dinosaurs had 183 MILLION years spanning from 248 million years ago in the Triassic period to the extinction at 65 million years ago, not a single reptile has shown evidence of ever picking up a rock or STICK or develop the ability to use anything in the massive environment around them with 61 TIMES as much more time to develop than humans? All within the most intense competitive environment in natural history with 15 foot tall creatures with giant teeth on the rampage. Even more how come if the shark has been around for 450 MILLION years has it not developed a simple fishing net or coral tipped spear? They had the time so why not?


What happened the first 183 MILLION years the dinosaurs had if it only took us 3 million years to create what we have? Why such a dramatic difference in the frequency and RATE of our apparently remarkable evolutionary accidents compared to what happened to the fish(490 million years evo.) or the shark or the dinosaur? Early history of life on earth was much more competitive than the period after the extinction of the dinosaurs. Can you or science explain this massive difference in rate of evolution between the dinosaurs, sharks, fish and us?


This issues for me calls into question, more than anything else some of the pillars of evolutionary science. Is there something wrong with the theory itself?


Thanks I would love to hear an answer to this overlooked question.



MrRage
Posts: 892
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Easy. The dinosaurs weren't

Easy. The dinosaurs weren't intelligent, at least not anywhere near the intelligence of humans.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Posts: 7588
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
marketRiver wrote: The

marketRiver wrote:

The challenge for you to answer is why, if the Dinosaurs had 183 MILLION years spanning from 248 million years ago in the Triassic period to the extinction at 65 million years ago, not a single reptile has shown evidence of ever picking up a rock or STICK or develop the ability to use anything in the massive environment around them with 61 TIMES as much more time to develop than humans? All within the most intense competitive environment in natural history with 15 foot tall creatures with giant teeth on the rampage. Even more how come if the shark has been around for 450 MILLION years has it not developed a simple fishing net or coral tipped spear? They had the time so why not?

You don't need to pick up a spear when you have dozens of them that evolved in your mouth...

Vote for Democrats to save us all from the anti-American Republican party!

Please become a Patron of Brian Sapient


Bigg
Bigg's picture
Posts: 130
Joined: 2007-06-10
User is offlineOffline
Those were made for eating

Those were made for eating coconuts and pineapple anyway.
They had no use for spears,just hit up a tree and eat some fruit.
/duck

"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions."--Frater Ravus


ParanoidAgnostic
ParanoidAgnostic's picture
Posts: 402
Joined: 2007-05-20
User is offlineOffline
You misunderstand

You misunderstand evolution. It is not a linear process. You cannot start with an organsism and be guaranteed it will evolve specific characteristics - like inteligence.

There are many ways to be the 'fittest' Ours is intelligence. For other animals it's strength, or speed. For some plants it's height to get the most light. These traits arrise randomly and the ones that help survival are passed on.

Being a massive monster with huge teeth is just as evolutionarily valid as having opposable thumbs and the brains to use them.

 

You also confuse technology (inteligently guided process) with evolution (natural ungided process) At the Australopithecus Africanus stage of out history, we'd already developed most of the physiological traits we's need to develop ICBMs. We had hands and arms that allowed complex manipulations of objects. We had a brain much more cabable of reasoning than most other animals - It was the millions of years that go us to that point that count. There was naturally further changes to get to modern man but we'd already gone most of the way. 

Our technology is not part of out evolution (in darwinian terms), it's the ability and tendency to develop technology that is evolved.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
This one might be easy

This one might be easy enough that we don't even need to call in deludedgod for backup. I recommend reading a book called "The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature" by Geoffrey Miller.

Basic idea: Survival is but one aspect of natural selection. Think about it for a minute. If you have a small pond, you probably have a couple thousand lifeforms happily surviving. However, they're vastly different. You have everything from bacteria to fish, or maybe alligators, and lots of plants... probably some algae. All of these things survive remarkably well. If survival was all there was to it, we wouldn't expect to see such diversity. We'd see the two or three things that were the most adaptive.

As it turns out, sexual choice is something that scientists are having a hard time getting a good grasp on. In many species, it seems almost arbitrary. The peacock is a great example, and is used all the time. That tail is extraneous, and actually HINDERS the peacock's individual chance to survive. Nevertheless, chicks dig it, so peacocks with awesome tails get to mate, and then there are more of them next generation. One theory is that sexual selection IS in fact pretty arbitrary. In a great many species, the female is the selector (humans, too, of course).

Anyway, intelligence in a rudimentary form isn't necessarily a survival advantage, but it does allow for some pretty impressive flirting -- a REPRODUCTIVE advantage. So, it's not hard to understand how a few generations of smart men getting laid would lead to an immediately improved intellect in homo-whatever. It's also not hard to understand how there is a point at which intellect does become a survival advantage -- when man learns to build tools/weapons. At this point, it's a downhill slope.

So, the question is not really why did humans get so fast so smart. Just get any computer geek to tell you about adaptive AI programs and their capacity for exponential growth. The question is, why are there not any other smart critters.

Well, there are actually some very smart ones. The more we learn, the more we realize dolphins, apes, chimps, octopi, and many other critters are pretty damn smart. The thing is, there are just not many critters who have the kind of physical adaptations to use intellect in ways that would promote increased intelligence. While dolphins are pretty good at figuring out how to herd fish and hold particularly attractive females captive for repeated breeding, they don't get a lot of chances to make axes.  Without the physical makeup or the natural opportunity, many animals have hit a "glass ceiling" -- so says the theory.  

The fact is, two things have to converge for intellect to develop:

1) Physical capacity for intellectual development.

2) The more or less arbitrary selection of intelligence for reproduction.

This is obviously pretty rare. (Our uniqueness proves its rarity, even though theists would like to reverse the cause-effect chain.)

Also worth noting is that we probably weren't the only really intelligent hominids. More than likely, we killed off a few competitors in the early years. Whether we did it with brains or braun, I dunno.

Anyway, maybe deludedgod wants to jump in here. He's the evolutionary expert, and that book I'm paraphrasing is a couple decades old.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


marketRiver
Posts: 4
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
HAha I love the picture of

HAha I love the picture of the dino tooth and the kid! As to "The dinosaurs weren't intelligent" that is my point. Why were they not? How come? Why was evolution broken for them and not for us? Not even a thumb or straw roof for shelter? How come no dinosaur or fish or shark ever developed the INTELLECT to even begin to use their environment when we have a had a fraction of the time and seem to have mastered our environment. Intellect SHOULD have evolved in the 183 million years that dinos had the same as it did for us. No? For me if one can not explain this difference in the rate of change than it leaves room to question basis of the theory.

Interesting


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
You're assuming evolution

You're assuming evolution has a point.

Intelligence, like a few people have said, is not inherently a survival trait.  Big teeth beat intelligence until intelligence gets, well... REALLY intelligent.  So, it would make sense that the bigguns would pretty much decimate the little intelligent ones (intelligence requires a lot of energy expenditure, and size doesn't often go with it as a result.)

See, it's Sapien-Centric to assume that just because we're intelligent, that intelligence is the end all and be all of intelligence.

If you could hang around a million years, you might find that after humans blow themselves up and make the planet unlivable for themselves that other less intelligent species are surviving quite well.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13254
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I'll answer this in a

I'll answer this in a different way. How do we know that all previous species did not in fact develop some technology? The fact of the matter is that 65 million years would be long enough to wipe out almost every single piece of human civilization on this planet, if humans were not around to maintain the infrastructure. The further back into human civilization you go, the less time it would take to eliminate all evidence of humanities existance. Assuming we are the one and only species to develop some kind of civilization is illogical. We don't have any evidence to support or debunk such an idea.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


marketRiver
Posts: 4
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Hmm. Good points. Perhaps I

Hmm. Good points. Perhaps I am being Sapien-Centric in my thoughts on this. Your right once we blow ourselves up than perhaps the ant or something had it right all along Smiling. Still its a bit curious to me why no one else 'got smart' and 'physically adept' within the same environment with much more time? I mean 183 million years was a looooong time and the 450 for sharks was even longer. I would expect Sharks to have Xray vision by now if no thumbs? They are so far from perfect or maxed out in their environment.

Interesting


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
        Show me where

        Show me where evolution states that a species MUST evolve it's intelligence? That would be my first question to you. To answers yours however i respond with this. The enviromental factors of the dinosaurs probably didn't require it to increase it's intelligence. As for this i give examples the crocodile and the shark, both have been around since the time of the dinosaurs yet neither have increase their intelligence, they may have adapted and evolved with their enviroment over the last few millions years but their intelligence hasn't really improved, and why should it? They are very well suited for their enviroment. Mammals however have shown to have increased their intelligence (why i admit i personally do not know, however do some research on the net you might find a suitable answer), so far great apes, elephants, dolphins and whales have shown to have a higher intelligence than other creatures on earth, with the exception of humans.

    Evolution requires that a species adapt, change (mutations) and survive it's enviroment, it does not say it requires to evolve it's intelligence. 


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Sharks are damn near the

Sharks are damn near the perfect predator.   I dunno why you'd say that.  They have a fantastic metabolism, they can smell a drop of blood for miles, they have refills for teeth they lose, eye covers to keep them from losing their sight, and tons of other amazing adaptations.  Why would you think they need anything else?  The only thing that's dropped shark populations has been human hunting, and humans decimating their food supply. 

I think the thing you're just not understanding is that very few environments are conducive to intellect developing as a survival trait.

Seriously, dude.  Read that book I recommended.  This is not necessarily something you're going to understand from a few paragraphs on a message board.   

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


marketRiver
Posts: 4
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
Latincanuck, Great point

Latincanuck,


Great point with the shark and croc still being here. But I would say you suggest some kind of detection system that oversees evolution and informs it as to when it 'done' on a particular system of an organism. The brain being the most vital portion of any creature would I think be last on the list to have its evolutionary budget cut and just stop. I thought Darwin suggested evolution was ever expanding? I guess I need to read more of his writings.


Hambydammit,


Yes I need to read the book. Thank you for the recommendation.


Anyway Ive learned something from you all. Thanks.

Interesting


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
There are many things that

There are many things that affect evolution and what is necessary for it to take place, enviormental changes, mutations that survive. Again the species adapts to it's enviroment, this is one part, second part is survival, if a mutation doesn't surivive it cannot evolve. third is the pressure to evolve, if there are no enviromental pressures to change why change? The shark and the crocodile have to this point no real need to change drastically, intelligence wise, they are suitable for their enviorment, again a species will adapt to it's enviroment, if there is a change in it's enviorment and one in which a mutation occurs to which the intelligence increases and surivives then the species will become more intelligent. However many factors must contribute before this happens.


ParanoidAgnostic
ParanoidAgnostic's picture
Posts: 402
Joined: 2007-05-20
User is offlineOffline
marketRiver wrote: Great

marketRiver wrote:

Great point with the shark and croc still being here. But I would say you suggest some kind of detection system that oversees evolution and informs it as to when it 'done' on a particular system of an organism.

In a way, yes. But not on a particular system, it acts on the organism as a whole. When an species has reached the point of being so good at it does there is no need to continue changing. I'm speaking in evolutionary terms here - there will be no change because no change would make it better at passing it's genes on than it already is so there is no natural selection in favor of new features.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!