I had forgotten...
Offline This whole last year, I've been in Germany as an exchange student, and I just returned to the states last Friday. I live in Dallas, Texas with my ultra-religious parents and have to go to church three times a week with them. If I refuse to go, I get kicked out and lose any and all financial support, like college money. That's not what I'm writing about though.
In the course of the last eleven months, I had forgotten how brainwashed and ignorant the people here are. Last sunday, the preacher gave a sermon about "truth." Whatever is in the bible is truth; what isn't is a lie - there are no grey areas, there is no room for compromise. If you are reading something that seems to go against what you believe, close it and put it away, because you could become contaminated.
When he finally got around to saying this stuff, my heart almost stopped. How can people just sit there and accept this bullshit? This would seem to be a fatal mistake even for their church; if everyone had this attitude about their beliefs, there would be no converts, no discussion, no spreading of the "truth." In the real world, this is the kind of worldview that divides and destroys, the cult mentality which pumps out suicide bombers, incidents like in Waco, mass suicides, and holy wars.
This was possibly the worst homecoming I've ever had; I came from a continent where rationality, debate, and continual improvement over the past were held up as ideals, and entered into this intellectual hell hole. Looks like I've got some deconverting to do.
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Wow, thats awful. I refuse ever to set foot in a church again, but if for some odd reason I was in one and he started saying shit like that I would have stood up, objected, and walked out. I bet thats what you would have liked to do, but I understand why you couldn't.
It must be very hard to have to listen to that when you feel so strongly against it. I understand that your predicament must be difficult. I can't think of any other way to turn this experience into a positive one at the moment. I hope that you will be going back to school soon (I'm assuming you won't have to deal with the folks when you're away).
If god takes life he's an indian giver
How sure are you that you would get kicked out if you voiced your views?
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
''How can people just sit there and accept this bullshit?''
But you did, didn't you? Man, I know exactly how you feel, and I can tell you with no uncertainty that tomorrow or the next day or some day that you are more prepared is not the time, the time is now, even if you spout off and look like a fool, even if you spout off and have no idea what you are saying, you just can't back down when people say ridiculous bullshit and expect you to believe it. You know as well as I do how they say it. "Well, the bible says....blah blah blah" and they are so convinced of it that they never even imagine that you will challenge them on it, just as if I said, "well, 2 strokes cause more pollution than 4 strokes. If we ban 2 stroke engines we will reduce pollution in the lakes by 40 percent" wthout producing any evidence whatsoever. Think, brother, think , but don't think so much that you lose the ability to act.
"Who, like some evil Atlas, turned the world upside down upon their shoulders, and made shams and delusions into absolute truths, and absolute truths into inviolate heresy?" Elliot Merrick, True North (this may be a misquote, but is close, I don't have th
Well, they kicked out my older brother several years ago because he refused to go to church with them, and he wasn't even an atheist, so I'm on thin ice as it is. Soon after I told them I didn't want to be a christian anymore, I tried to stay home instead of go to church, and my dad told me straight up, if I don't want to go to church then I don't want to be part of the family. I can express my views as long as I keep it low key, but I think if they found out that I'm trying to deconvert my sister, they'd have a hissy fit. I generally try to be subliminal or at least ultra-rational when I talk with my parents about religion, because it's a pretty volatile topic, and my dad actually quit talking with me about religion because it's too emotional for him.
umm... Thanks for all the sympathy/pity lol, I didn't really expect that. This isn't like anything new, it's just that I'm getting major reverse culture shock after coming back from Europe, and I had to share it with someone, and I thought, "Why not here?"
Do You Worship an Evil God?
You're right, I did, and it sucks to have to say that now. As appealing as the idea of an atheist jumping up during a sermon and yelling is (that really would be awesome), I just don't have the balls to do it. What I definitely could and should do, is confront the speaker afterwards, and tell him why his arguments are flawed or wrong or based in ignorance. Thanks for the encouragement.
Do You Worship an Evil God?
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
Man, your situation really sucks. You are between a rock and a hard place, literally, and as someone told me on another thread, there is no such thing as getting hit with a soft rock. I have two kids, and I pray (not to God, just in general) they (a 5 year old son and a 3 year old daughter) don't become religious fanatics or sluts or homosexuals or drug addicts or anything else as horrible. But no matter what, I will love them, thats just how parents are, as ridiculous as that sounds. And if your parents don't love you in that way, there is something wrong with them, not you.
"Who, like some evil Atlas, turned the world upside down upon their shoulders, and made shams and delusions into absolute truths, and absolute truths into inviolate heresy?" Elliot Merrick, True North (this may be a misquote, but is close, I don't have th
That's such a shame. They brought you up to be intelligent and to be a critical thinker. Now it seems that it only "counts" if you come to the same religious conclusion they have.
I don't have children so I cannot truly understand. However, I can't imagine a parent acting like that. I understand tough love if the child is tearing the family apart with drugs or booze or really bad behavior, but if you're a good a decent human being that just doesn't make sense to me at all.
Are your parents of a religion that "shuns" family members when they don't believe?
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Anyone who would kick their own kid out just because he/she didnt want to go to church is an asshole.People pull shit like that,and wonder why the nonbelievers dont like theism.Mom used to force me to go to church,but never would have kicked me out over not wanting to go,I even went sofar as to say fuck your church and religion its all bullshit one day.She just said ok if thats how you feel,i wont bother you about it and left it at that.THATS how a true christian should be,turn the other cheek,not that crap.If you dont want to go it shouldnt be a big deal,i know they probably want to "save" you,but if you dont believe church is even more pointless.Why waste your time?
"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions."--Frater Ravus
Well, my parents belong to the Church of Christ, which is a fairly large denomination, although they don't like being called a denomination (they're the one TRUE church!). The general attitude in the church is fundamentalist, but there are quite a few individuals that have beliefs a bit more vague than what gets the most pulpit time. My family doesn't shun people who aren't christian, it's just that virtually everyone in my family is a christian, and that not being one is seen as betraying the family, and that's one argument my dad pulled to justify forcing me to go to church, that it's "a family thing." How sitting in silence on a pew for six hours a week is a family thing, I don't know. What I think really drives him to have me there is shame. That he would be seen as a failure, or not a strong christian, because he failed to raise his child properly, aka complete and utter brainwashing.
This is something I've dealt with for several years now, so I'm used to it, but it seems like everyone I tell, even christians, are horrified. You guys are awesome, thanks for the support.
Do You Worship an Evil God?
I know there are a least a few atheists in the dallas area. There might be a meet up you could go to some time. I know there is one in the Houston area.
Good luck with all that man.
Native Americans and Australian Aboriginees exist (neither are mentioned in the Bible. You could argue that Asians were mentioned, sort of, but not these people, nor the continents from which they originated)
Various technologies from the modern world
The theory of gravity
The theory that the world revolves around the sun and that the world is not flat
There are probably a whole lot more, but that's just a sampling. If you can't get him to at least think about his ridiculous ideas with these, then he is lost.
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing
Being a Christian isn't such a bad thing.......
For a person in your circumstance it can often be entertaining. I assume they think you are a Christian? If so, perfect you are inside the veil.. Do you think a Christian would have treated your brother that way? A little challenge to their faith by God and they buckled? I'm sure you can construct some sort of none threating discussion about it and in turn deliver a little doubt to their faith (from the Christians perspective). Maybe you can talk to your minister and get some advice on how you can resolve the religous conflict in your family and restore your parents to proper Chrisitians.
Nothing like sheding a little light on their Christian inadaquacies to stir up a little doubt.
A nice well placed atheistic koan can do wonders for "awakening" a Chrisitian or at least at a minimum offer some comedic relief.
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
No, my parents know I'm an atheist, as do the leaders of the church, and the families of my former friends in the church. As for the three hundred other members that I've never known very well, many have noticed that I'm not active in the church; for example, I don't lead singing or read chapters from the bible on wednesday nights, I don't go to the monthly MEN'S bible studies, nor do I go door knocking with the young people every two weeks. I used to do all that stuff until I started questioning my beliefs about five years ago.
I can kind of give you an overview of the basics in this church. Women are not allowed to speak during services nor participate in any of the public part of the services, besides sitting in the pew and singing. Instruments are not allowed in the church, so the whole song service is a cappella, and there is no choir, everyone sings.
There is no preacher/minister/priest/etc, but four Elders and six Deacons. The Elders are in charge of the church, the Deacons do whatever is left over that the Elders didn't get around to. One of the Elders is scheduled to speak every other sunday morning. Any willing man is allowed to give a sermon, and just has to ask to be put on the schedule, and any willing man is allowed to lead singing; on sunday mornings, there is only one song leader, and the other times, the Elders/Deacons just go around before services (it's a virtue to get there early) and ask a number of guys if they'd like to lead a song or two. There are typically two to three prayers each service, and they are arranged the same way.
When I first told my parents that I didn't want to be a christian anymore, my dad talked to me for a while, discussing all sorts of things, even bringing up the Stalin-was-an-atheist argument, but he eventually gave up, and got one of the Elders to come meet with me. He brought all the typical bullshit with him, aka no morals without god, evolution is just a theory, etc. I leveled everything this guy said, and he was a well-respected leader of the church. After a while, he told me he was too busy to talk with me for a few weeks, and then he just never said anything to me ever again. A year or so later, the church hired an official evangelist, and so my parents sicced him on me first thing. I thought the Elder was an idiot, but this guy - Holeeeee Shiite... He started off asking me why I turned away from christianity, and I told him that I began questioning my beliefs when I encountered evolution in my freshman biology class, and set out to disprove it, but wound up disproving my old beliefs. So he tells me Lucy was just a monkey; I showed him otherwise. Then he tells me That carbon 14 dating is totally inaccurate and only goes back 50,000 years - I told him there are lots of different isotopes used for dating, and that they are all quite accurate. He then told me that when Mount Saint Helens exploded, there was a small lake in the region, sitting in a saddle between two nearby mountains, and that the blast from the explosion pushed the lake up one side, trees and debris filled the empty space, then the lake covered it back up. Years later, people discovered oil there, and so it obviously doesn't take eons to produce oil. I gave him two weeks to find me the slightest shred of documentation for this claim, and he produced nothing. At this point he was getting desparate, and said, "What about ghosts? What about demonic possession and miracle healings?" and I said, "...what about them?" he said, "isn't that evidence for an afterlife? How can you disregard the countless stories of the paranormal? There must be something going on. You'd be crazy to say they're all just made up!" I was really shocked that he would bring this up, because my parents don't even believe in ghosts and miracle healings, etc. I told him that I can discount them because they are contradictory to one another, culturally based, and unfalsifiable, often vague, and explainable through human psychology and superstition. That was our last meeting, and he pulled the same, 'I'm too busy now' avoidance, which was fine by me.
That's what that church is like, and they know I'm an atheist, I'm not hiding it one little bit.
Do You Worship an Evil God?
Hah, typical fundie asshattery.
I kinda wish the church i used to go was like that,i would have had fun.For the most part,the church and its people were the type whod just be like well if you dont believe,thats your choice,we arent going to force it on you.
"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions."--Frater Ravus
So... everyone knows you don't believe. The elders avoid you because they cannot counter your arguments.
You're forced to go to church simply for appearances; so everyone will know your father can make you go?
What would happen if you did go to men's group and brought up your questions? What if you participated and kept asking questions aloud?
Hey, maybe you'll get lucky and they'll ask your father to keep you home.
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I like Susan's ideas, but to go just a step further if anyone is allowed to give a sermon, why don't you ask to give one. I'm sure the people on this forum would LOVE to help you put together a sermon! Just please get someone to tape it for us.
I think hutch is onto something.
You could title your sermon "Questions We Should All Be Asking".
The first question, of course, would be "What's this crap about women not being allowed to speak in church?"
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It's pretty easy for me (here safe in my own little world) to tell you that you should not subject yourself to their endless attempts to convert you. In my little world, no one has the balls to try and convert me ... they all know it will be a VERY brief conversation. However, your situation is unique just like everyone elses.
If you have to follow your parents around like a bitch to get what it is that you want (financial support if I understand correctly) then that is your choice. I do all manner of bending over in the real world to get what I want and I don't see how your situation is much different. Though I do not have to denounce or repress my core belief system in my circumstance, that is still just splitting hairs. The real world sucks ass.
Your parents are threatening you with violence (throwing someone into poverty qualifies) if you do not subjugate to their will. The villains they associate with support them and oppose you at every turn. The followers of their beliefs will not be turned (playing the odds) no matter how you profess. So really, it's just a matter of how much ass pounding you're willing to put up with to get what you want.
BTW, Austin is almost 4 hours away from you but that is where I have dug out my lair. I would be happy to get together with you.
So basically you're getting paid to go to Church... Might not be too bad of a gig.
Be the visitor, just seperate yourself. write a book or something.. Title it "Submerged in faith and breathing through the straw of atheism" or maybe "Why I didn't Drink the Kool-Aid"
If you really can't deal.. I would talk to your brother and check the barometer on leaving.
Good luck...
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
Maybe I should have been a little more specific about the sermons... any christian man is allowed to give a sermon, and only ones with experience get to speak on sunday mornings. That would be awesome though, to give an atheist sermon in front of all these fundies. One thing I have thought about doing is writing something like that up, printing a bunch out, and leaving them in the pews in the church, posting a few on the bulletin, etc. That would be great, although I'd probably leave it anonymous. I've got countless little schemes like that just waiting to come to fruition, I just need to actually do them.
I hear Austin is a pretty liberal city for Texas, lots of college kids and great music scene. Would you say that's about right, marcusfish?Do You Worship an Evil God?
The music scene in Austin is the best in the nation, now that New Orleans is... well... you know. If you like music, just as a whole, you'll love it there. Walking down 5th (6th? It's been 8 years since I lived there, but visited a lot before Katrina) street and just listening to the music being played in the bars is great.
Plenty of blues, rock, and metal... usually all mixed together. Besides it being a great place to live in terms of music, it's also just a great place to live in general. However, I don't know how theistic the people are there since things like that, at the time, flew by me.
Indeed, if you are forced to live in the Red hell called Texas ... Austin is the only place to do it. I've met some of the atheist community down here and they are just what you'd expect; radical in a funky kind of way.
The UT campus insures that a good percentage of the people walking around are all beautiful. This is an interesting contradiction to the subculture (predominant culture?) of 'Keep Austin Wierd'. 6th street is certainly a sight. It's one of the few places I've been where rednecks and punks walk the same street and no one hits anyone else. It's kind of bizaar actually, now that I think about it
This is precisely why I truly believe religion will be erradicated in coming centuries or decades. The only real question in my mind is whether or not it will manage to erradicate the species at the same time.
I feel for you in regards to the scenario with your parents. They seem to have chosen god over their own children. I really can't understand such behaviour. Have they ever given a rational explanation for forcing you to go to church even though you don't believe?
Fortunately, it won't last forever at least. Once college is done, you'll be free of that cloud.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Since your parents and the church know you are an atheist I guess you could just think of this as your contribution to your folks for their financial assistance. If it makes them happy then why not? You'll be free of it soon enough.
Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.
"I hear Austin is a pretty liberal city for Texas, lots of college kids and great music scene. Would you say that's about right, marcusfish?"
A little farther south... San Marcos is a really cool place. There are a lot of people in both of those towns convinced that they are in the greatest place on earth. I don't like Austin because it is a big city, period. There is lots of traffic, there are lots of freaks, there is lots of crime. And you will hear the following many times, "For a big city, it's pretty cool" and yes, it has Dallas beat all to hell. I grew up in Fort Worth, it sucked. For many years I worked in Dallas, it was worse, I have been in the ghettos and the high rises and mansions and everywhere in between. My point is, why go from one big shithole to another?
"Who, like some evil Atlas, turned the world upside down upon their shoulders, and made shams and delusions into absolute truths, and absolute truths into inviolate heresy?" Elliot Merrick, True North (this may be a misquote, but is close, I don't have th
BTW, Austin and San Marcos both are the type of towns where you could go and just meet people and the next thing you know you are living with some crazy girl and have a whole new crop of friends who are picking you up to go clubbing or giving you the keys to their car and a wad of cash to go get more beer. For Texas, they are both very "user friendly" as far as dropping out goes.
"Who, like some evil Atlas, turned the world upside down upon their shoulders, and made shams and delusions into absolute truths, and absolute truths into inviolate heresy?" Elliot Merrick, True North (this may be a misquote, but is close, I don't have th
Does anyone know what this is?
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I keep getting it everytime I change pages or post, and it gets longer and longer each time. I guess I am in hell. That's what I deserve.
"Who, like some evil Atlas, turned the world upside down upon their shoulders, and made shams and delusions into absolute truths, and absolute truths into inviolate heresy?" Elliot Merrick, True North (this may be a misquote, but is close, I don't have th
Lol. Some kind of coding error. I'm sure it'll be fixed in a day or two. Shouldn't cause any problems in the meantime.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Well, as I said toward the beginning of the thread, going to church wasn't what I was focused on, I just mentioned it as an explanation as to why I was even in a church to begin with, haha. It sucks, it's a waste of time, and annoying, but I've been going my entire life, so it's not like some recent burden that's been thrown on me. What I was more focusing on was what a difference in mindset it was between Europe and the US, and how I'd been away from the bible belt for so long that coming back was really shocking and disappointing.
For example, we went to church this morning, and my grandfather gave one of the public prayers. One of his sentences was, "If Christ hadn't lived, people would be killing each other more than they are." These people have no idea! They are just completely cut off from reality!
I've been working on writing an article called, "You Worship an Evil God," and I think I'll be going around with a couple of my friends and planting it at churches. I'm trying to keep it small enough to put inside bibles and song books. I'll post it here somewhere when I'm finished, or maybe when I get the rough draft made, so I can get suggestions, if anyone feels like helping out.
Do You Worship an Evil God?
That's a great idea! If you post it up here, would you mind overly much if some of us print if off and follow your lead. It'll be like the war on christmas, but we could do this all year round. I can just see the look on the people who attend the tiny baptist church my family attends.
I have been in your situation. In order to maintain my sanity, I decided to attend the services but behave as if I were a scholarly observer. In this way, you can detach yourself from the entire situation. Don't detach too much though. You might end up doing something stupid like allowing your folks to talk you into attending seminary....
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
The "You Worship an Evil God" thing will be a six-sided pamphlet, and will focus primarily on atrocities in the Old Testament, but I also go a little bit into other things like the Fall, Hell, and the sadism inherent in blood sacrifices and the crucifixion. I'd like each side to cover a different range of topics, but the problem is that there is just so much horrible shit in the bible, so it's hard to decide what should go in, what's most effective, etc. Here's the first side, feel free to tear it apart and put it back together again.
Do You Worship an Evil God?
Looks good to me so far.
ispeakmetal,
I definitely feel for you man. I've read through all of the comments and wanted to let you know that we support you and wish the best for you.
That being said...I think a few people were a bit too harsh on your parents, to be honest. I mean, think about it...they're worried that their son has turned away from the "one true god" and is going to burn in hell for all of eternity. I would imagine their intention in threatening to kick you out, cut off your funding, etc. is to save your soul, over all else. If your parents truly are fundies, then they believe this VERY deeply. I think a good way to look at it is that they REALLY care about you...as irrational as they seem to be. It may be true that it's partly a status thing for your parents and they're embarassed about your non-belief, that's true, but I would imagine they really do want (what they think) is best for you. I know it may be hard, but instead of confronting them and causing the confrontation it may be best for you to stay true to your beliefs without seriously causing problems for your family in the short time you're under these rules.
Also...arguing with the pastor/preacher in the middle of church would be a TERRIBLE idea. I know you're probably young (based on your situation) and may feel the need to speak out, but arguing passionately in the middle of church would be terribly irresponsible and disrespectful of your parents. VERY soon you'll be off on your own, living your own life, etc. and won't have to be under their ridiculous rules...but if you care to maintain a relationship with your parents at that point, embarassing them at that level now would hurt your chances of maintaining that relationship later.
Another thing - If I were in your position I would definitely look for some friendly faces in your area. Seek out a freethinker/atheist meeting to listen/learn and voice some of your problems, as it would make the situation much easier to deal with.
This may not need to be said but, of course, this is all just my opinion so take it for what it's worth. I wish you the best!
Oh, I don't plan on arguing with anyone during church, but afterwards, when everyone is standing around chatting, I'll be talking to people. Standing up and yelling during church would make a good scene for a movie, but that's not how I like to work things, and yeah, it would be really stupid to do, I'd just hurt my folks and my own credibility.
I don't hate or resent my parents, so if I came off like I did, oops. I'm sure if I were in their situation with their beliefs, I'd be doing everything I could to save my child, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't discuss issues with them and should avoid offending them with opposing points of view. I've already changed their opinions on a number of things, and I don't plan on stopping.
BTW, my "You Worship an Evil God" pamphlet is almost complete, I should be able to show it off on here this weekend. I'll probably start a new thread for it.
Do You Worship an Evil God?
Good to hear! If you're having respectful, reasonable discussions with your parents regarding your beliefs and trying to show them your side of things, I think that seems like a great approach. Maybe I read more into it than what was actually happening. (I was worried you were considering a knock-down, drag-out fight with your parents...even in front of their church, lol)
I think the pamphlet looks good, btw.
Everyone, I just posted the full rough draft of "You Worship an Evil God" in the activism section, so have a look and criticize!
Do You Worship an Evil God?
FYI - here is a link to the thread on ispeakmetal's pamphlet.