Having Mormons over for Dinner
Hey Guys,
This coming Tuesday I’m having a two Mormons over for dinner. They are only a couple of years older then me, (21ish) and are on their famous Mormon Mission. I know a fair bit about Mormonism, but I was wondering if you people had any advice or good arguments for me.
Thanks in Advance,
Garrett.
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One of our freinds dated a mormon, she actualy broke up with him (the mormon) because he always turns into "Bible mode". Just do your regular arguments as you would with any Christian.
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Don't spend the whole evening debating religion. Find some commonality in other areas. (Your personal example has a greater delivery than argument.)
Enjoy.
Good advice. And if they mention the magical glasses try not to spray your drink from your nose.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
After you serve them, pass around a plate and tell them it's time to collect the tithe.
Fava beans and a nice Chianti.
It would be funny if you could avoid the subject of religion the entire night. Every time they try to bring it up you change the subject or get up to get something to drink. I'll be curious as to how often they try to bring the subject up.
that would be interesting to see, however I think I'm more interested in religion then they are. I predict by the end of the night, that it will be me constantly bringing up the topic of religion, and they'll be the ones doing the avoiding.
Ask them what's up with the magic underwear?
Offer three drink selections: wine, iced tea, and coffee. When they ask for water, tell them someone turned all the water into wine.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
Well, if ya gotta talk about religion then it's fun to set them up in a trap.
Ask them if god is always right. It goes without saying that an omniscient god and an authority on morals should be. So if they deliver a 'yes' then present them with this problem:
God says "an eye for an eye" as a proper response to a violent act. Believing that moral guidance what would the proper response be by a god who was tortured and executed by the people? Would god take his own advice or was he morally wrong when he suggested that a people who torture should be tortured in return?
Can we have a sweapstake? I'll take the 20-25 range fro the number of times they bring up religion over the course of the evening. Can you count the number of times they do?
I wouldn't bring the subject up because it may become an unpleasant atmosphere. However I usually find the fervently religious can talk of nothing else.
Praise God, and pass the peas!!
I'm assuming most of you live in the States, so you see/hear your full share of the fundamental religious type. However I live in a small city in Canada, and have honestly never come across a "religious nut." These kids are only 21ish and probably don't know all that much about their faith. I doubt they're going to want to bring up the topic of religion a lot. I hope they do, but I doubt it.
And to the moral problem brought up: Wouldn’t the Christian simply respond with "God was trying to save us. Why would he punish us after a successful sacrifice that washed away the sins of the world?"
I've chatted with a few Mormons myself (and, boy, did they love bringing up religion.) Just make sure to inquire as to their stances and try not to pre-suppose their views on things. The Book of Mormon introduces some "interesting" ideas and makes them swerve a bit from "any other Christian." This doesn't make it any less frustrating to try and explain the issue of omniscience vs. free will, though.
-Triften
I love when they talk about the Angel Moroni. The very name makes me giddy.
If you Canadians have a dearth of religious nutcases, please allow me to send you a complete complimentary set of our American nutcases. Each month a new and more bizarre nutcase will arrive with his own interpretation of the Bible.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
Ask them about Joseph Smith's background as a con man and how they can possibly think we wasn't pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.
Portion of article found here:
Smith was largely regarded at the time as a con man and fraud. His golden plates disappeared, transported to heaven, or so he said. The civilizations recorded within the Book of Mormon have never been substantiated by any historical evidence through either archaeology or corroborated by any credible scholar or historian. Instead, as originally perceived by Smith's contemporaries, they appear to be little more than a collection of fictional stories put together by Smith, based largely upon other writings and his own creative imagination.
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I've read the Book of Mormon, and it's worth reading if you're going to debate Mormons. A lot of Mormons don't know what's in it, even amongst the missionaries.
If you don't have time to read the BoM, the Skeptic's Annotated Book of Mormon is a good resource. I would probably start in on the racism in the BoM (i.e. the claims that the people who rebelled against god, the Lamanites, were cursed with a "dark skin").
Also, try to get a good, clear description of how the golden plates were transcribed.
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
If you want to tear Mormons apart about their beliefs read Under the Banner of Heaven. In Joseph Smith's Doctrine and Covenents he advocates plural marriage. While Smith wasn't a racist the second prophet Brigham Young was a racist who wouldn't allow Blacks into the church. That racist tradition continued until the government threatened to revoke their tax exemption if they didn't comply with the Civil Rights act.
I have to dispute this. The BoM was written by Joseph Smith, and it contains some very clearly racist claims. These beliefs might have been normal in his time, but Smith was definitely a racist by any reasonable standard.
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
The book, Under the Banner of Heaven makes an argument that he wasn't as he associated with blacks and gave them positions of authority.
Isn't the idea that native Americans are tainted/lost a tad racist? Especially since, according to the Mormon myths I understand, it's supposedly signified by their skin color?
-Triften
I'd be interested to see his argument and sources, because the BoM pretty much speaks for itself (and Smith) on the matter, and as far as I know, there's no serious dispute that Smith is responsible for all its important contents (although the church has been revising it since it was published). As triften said, the claims about how a dark skin is a sign of divine curse are pretty racist.
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
What is a good wine to serve with flamed mormon?
You could always dress up like Cardinal Ximinez, from the Spanish Inquisition? Oh wait. That was against jews. Hmmm. Oh well. Nobody expects the spanish inquisition anyway.
"Clarisse, I'm having an old friend for dinner."
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Or just to see the reaction, give them the type of water you can buy that looks clear but is flavoured :D
"This is the real world, stupid." - Charlie Brooker
"It is necessary to be bold. Some people can be reasoned into sense, and others must be shocked into it. Say a bold thing that will stagger them, and they will begin to think." - Thomas Paine
I always invite in anyone from a church knocking on my door. I always keep the subject off religion till the end, then spring it on them. It's amazing to watch their faces after you've had a nice meal and pleasant conversation. Totally screws up their "evil" atheist construct, the beauty of cognitive dissonance.
Turn on your tv while they're at your house, Mormons on their mission aren't supposed to watch it. It has the same effect as talking to a crackhead if you were holding a rock the size of your fist. Yes, I am kind of a dick.
The paper read yesterday, the earth exploded, nobody noticed the passing of this hapless planet.
Tuesday has passed. What happened?
The Dinner went over great. They were just two young kids, doing what they thought they were supposed to do. One I really liked and could tell he thought about what I had to say. The other, well have you guys seen SIGA`s video where he talks about the Christians just plugging their ears and praising Jesus, well the other guy was a lot like that. We honestly didn’t talk too much about religion. Had one argument about Free Will, I asked some questions, they gave me some answers. Overall though they seemed like your average young adults, and I had a wonderful time meeting them.
That sounds like a good time. I'm glad to hear you are extending the olive branch and engaging in sincere conversation.
The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...
That's funny you should bring this up!! A few moths ago I had a couple Mormon's knock on my door ( I live in Arizona, which has the second largest Mormon population in the US I believe, so they are constantly knocking on my damn door)- One of them was a white guy, and one of them was "dark skinned" if you know what I mean. I kept looking at the dark guy in puzzlement and he finally asked me why I was looking at him that way. I took his own Book of Mormon from him and read him Alma 3: 6 which says- "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men." It seemed as if he was unaware that this verse was in there and had absolutely no counter claim. It seems that alot of "dark skinned" Mormons are ignorant to the fact that racism is at the very heart of the book of Mormon and that they are unfamiliar with the passages of Mormon scriptures that deal with race.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack is during a game of charades...or a game of fake heart attack.
I was raised mormon and most of my family is still mormon, so the thing I've heard the most in the way of argument that really upsets them but they can't really defend is the DNA argument.
Mormons all think that the native americans came to America from the middle east and started their own civilization over here and yada yada, yet there is NO DNA evidence supporting that...
I'm sure any reading you do on the subject will describe what I am talking about far better than anything I have just said. Oh, another fun topic of discussion is Joseph Smith and his 14 year old wife(s). Usually their only comment to that is something like "everyone makes mistakes" or "well god said it was okay back then but it's not now..." which opens up a whole other can of worms like "so if god knows everything why would he have a need to change his mind?"
If I didn't feel sick right now I'd be saying what I mean a whole lot better than I am now... sorry about my rambling... I know I'm making no sense right now.
--Sarah--
Prayer: How to do nothing and feel like your doing something.
That's funny.
I have it on good authority (from a former missionary turned atheist) that many of the missionaries haven't even read the BoM. Their task is to provide the initial social pressure to bring their victims into the church, where the larger community can take over.
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
I asked the two Mormons I met with if they had read the Book of Mormon, and they both said they had many times. They thought it was odd for me to ask that question.
I wonder if anyone is looking for the gold tablets that good ol' Joe "misplaced"? And , as mentioned, DNA blows the BoM right out of Salt Lake!
Miracles don't exist. "Miracle" is a word given to a preposterous event that a theist considers dogmatically advantageous. Def. - Ecclesiastical sensationalism.
No, because as prophet smith said, anyone besides him would die by looking at the plates - and they promptly vanished after he finished dictating them.
There are no theists on operating tables.
I thought that, according to Mormon mythology, angles took the gold plates back to heaven.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
Ahh, yes, I recall now, "He who gazeth upon the Holy Sepulcher shall die."
[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes]
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Miracles don't exist. "Miracle" is a word given to a preposterous event that a theist considers dogmatically advantageous. Def. - Ecclesiastical sensationalism.
Ahhhh! if it wasn't for angels we'd have no communication!
Miracles don't exist. "Miracle" is a word given to a preposterous event that a theist considers dogmatically advantageous. Def. - Ecclesiastical sensationalism.
Read the threads that this guy was involved in:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/user/rationalmormon
(quick 'hello' to everyone, I'm still busy as can be - I will try to stop in and say 'hi' again another time, hugs!)
please visit www.SilkyShrewGoddess.com, www.FreeThoughtMedia.com, hillbillyatheist.com and