As skeptics, what's your take on 9/11?
Offline Ok, I was just wondering about this earlier today after watching some of those 9/11 conspiracy videos. What are your views of it? I definitely don't believe the government for a second, but on the other hand, somebody pointed out how they find it hard to believe that people in Bush's administration (obviously one of the dumbest ever) could plan a major conspiracy like this and yet take 5 days to get water to the super dome in New Orleans.... (But then, what if there are people behind the scenes controling Bush like a puppet, which I believe since it's doubtful he can get dressed without help) But just to name a few points off the top of my head, there was NO plane wreckage at the pentagon or at the Flight 93 site. Look at all the other plane wrecks, there is debris everywhere, but not at those sites. What about that fact that fire has never caused a steel building to collapse until 9/11. What about the strange collapse of building #7? It collapsed just like a demolition causes a building to collapse. What about the fact that the beams in the twin towers were cut exactly like demolition teams have explosives cut beams? http://www.debunking911.com/cut3.jpg What about the pictures showing explosions going off on lower floors as the building collapsed? There are MANY more questions like this. So what do you think, was 9/11 an inside job by some secret government?
- Login to post comments
I believe that some people, willing to die for Allah, hijacked some planes and crashed them into the towers. As for all the other evidence you stated, I have seen that too. I have also seen contradicting evidence. So who is to say? We should probably know in 40 years or so.
Disclaimer: In light of recent complaints about atheists appearing to be experts on everything, here are the resources I used to form this opinion.
1) My knowledge of the history of warfare in the United States.
1a) Verifiable information about the US inventing catalysts for war.
1b) Past conspiracy theories with regard to unverifiable claims of the same nature.
2) American Dynasty -- a book about the history of the Bush/Walker family, particularly in regards to war profiteering.
3) The accuracy of my own predictions for the course of the war and the results so far. No, I will not share these with the group.
4) The 9/11 congressional reports. Yes, I read them.
******
Now, with that out of the way, here's my layperson's opinion. The U.S. is fond of inventing ways to get into war when the leadership is anxious to do so. However, the scope of the conspiracy as portrayed in Zeitgiest and other movies is so vast that it's pretty much impossible, even for a regime with almost complete control of the media, like the U.S.
This is not to say that there wasn't something smelly going on. I suspect that the White House knew of an imminent threat to U.S. soil, and probably they knew it would be an airstrike. Whether they knew it would be hijacked passenger planes is unclear, but I suspect it wouldn't have made much difference. I suspect they didn't know the specific target(s) ahead of time.
I suspect that reports of imminent attack were suppressed by top officials in the White House, on the instructions of those who wanted an excuse to go to war with Iraq. Whether the president was involved directly, I can't say, and I don't think it matters very much.
It is obvious that there was a plan in place within very few hours, in which the media spun the story away from Saudi Arabia, and towards Sadaam Hussein. I'm pretty much certain this was dictated by the White House. I suspect this plan had been prepared before the attacks, based on the knowledge that the US would be attacked on its own soil.
In other words, I think 9/11 was allowed to happen, though the details were unknown. I don't think there was active collusion between the White House and any of the terrorists. I don't think the target was known, and I think the theories about preparing the towers for collapse is a bunch of hooey.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Raise your hands, all who think two planes flying into the twin towers, killing hundreds, but not collapsing the towers, would be insufficient cause to go to war?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
The conspiracy theorists find it hard to believe that a religious nut would kill himself to further advance his cause. Whether it be strapping a bunch of explosives and blowing up himself in a crowded market or crashing a plane it's all the same. The people who believe in the conspiracy rely on the usual bad science. Fire weakens steel, it's not surprising because steel melts but somehow the fact that this happens is proof of a conspiracy.
In California a fuel truck crashed and the resulting fire caused the steel to weaken and the bridge to collapse.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/30/national/main2740065.shtml
Clearly there must have been some big government conspiracy uncovered by a bunch of non-experts who gather information at their computer.
Other conspiracies that fall along the same lines are conspiracies about JFK, hiding UFOs, moon landings, freemasons, satanic ritual abuse and other nonsense. The U.S. government had the knowledge to create a nuclear bomb and tried to keep that secret. Despite that, within two years the Soviets had the technology. Someone gives the Bush administration too much credit for keeping this secret when they can't keep warrantless wiretaps, election fraud and other instances secret.
Here's a simple explanation. Religious fanatics go through lax airport security, hijack a plane, and crash it into a building. I know, it seems highly farfetched that someone would hijack an airplane but it had happened.
I have a hard time buying into these conspiracy theories. This is only my opinion but I can't imagine our government planning anything like this. I do, however, strongly suspect that 9/11 was used and excuse to go after Suddam and Iraq. I just remember watching the news and going 'huh? What happened to bin Laden? What does Saddam have to do with this?'
Seriously, I can't imagine the American government merely stepping aside and letting that happen and I have very little faith in our current president. The mayhem and death was unbelievable. People in NYC are still reeling from it in some ways.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
I agree, I don't think it could be as big as that, but remember, establishments have the majority of the world believe in another major conspiracy, religion.
Those are all good points, and it's hard to post something like this since the moment you even suggest the thought to everyday people they gasp and accuse you of being an unpatriotic idiot. Even if some of the building collapse evidence is bad science, I still cannot get over the undeniable fact that there was no mass plane wreckage in PA or in DC. Planes don't just "disappear".I consider anyone who holds the possibilty of conspiracy with a greater than a, lets say, 10% chance of occuring, is probably a socialist, has personal issues that provide a psychological reason to find a scapegoat in the government, are quick to point out holes in explainations but fail to provide their own cohesive theories, are generally bitter people who had spiteful, angry parents, or otherwise psychologically need a conspiracy to be true.
They engage in wish-thinking just like religious people.
The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...
The 9/11-Was-A-Controlled-Demolition people are like creationists in that they claim to be skeptics to appeal to skeptics and freethinkers but it just turns out they're denying something that's well-supported.
(I like the following, taken from the Forum Rules thread in the "Debate and Discussion" subforum over at Something Awful:
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
So you're saying conspiracy theories are a conspiracy by socialists?
Notice I went out of my way to say that the president/administration didn't step out of the way and let this happen. I suspect that they thought it would be something far less destructive. After all, the same terrorists had pretty well bungled the first attempt on the towers, and the only info that we know was definitely available was that Bin Laden was planning an attack using planes as weapons.
Historically, the US sets a bad precedent as far as getting itself into war. Vietnam, Korea, and some argue, the second world war were all entered by the US after an arranged or implicitly allowed attack on the US. The US involvement in Egypt over the Suez Canal was premeditated and arranged. 9/11 stands as unique only because it was on the mainland and was directed entirely at civilians.
(There are more examples, but I think confining the discussion to the modern era makes the most sense.)
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
We all saw the photos of the plane wreckage in Pennsylvania. It sure looked to me like a plane had crashed in that field. If it was staged they sure as hell did an excellent job.
And, If I'm not mistaken there were witnesses in Pennsylvania that actually saw the plane going down. Could they have been lying?
I guess anything is possible. But I think that the chances of it being a conspiracy are pretty low. Even as corrupt as I think government is, I don't think they'd murder thousands of innocent Americans. Until I see some convincing evidence otherwise, I'm going to continue to believe that eight young muslim men were on their way to a virgin orgy in the sky.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
I'm starting to regret bringing this topic up.... I was just curious as to ya'lls thoughts, I don't necessarily agree with the conspiracy junkies, was just asking.
You also have to remember that airplanes are built to be as light as possible, out of aluminum and other light metals. They're not built to withstand being smashed into buildings and the ground at high speed; if they were they'd never leave the ground. They would have been shredded on impact.
(In one of my earlier posts there's about a dozen links to various refutations; surely one of them will help you out, MedievalGuy.)
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
I guess pretty much my response to the theories that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance: where was the gain, the benefit?
Many, especially republicans, bear indirect responsibility. Their blatant lying and denial about the fossil fuel crisis has prolonged and extended our dependency on a very crazy part of the world.
If nothing else 9/11 should alert us to the malignancy of Islam. Moderate Islam is an oxymoron. Check out the Koran yourself--it's venomous.
Likely Europe will be the next hot spot. Countries such as France and Holland have allowed the build-up of nonintegrated Islamic populations. I suspect they're in for a rough ride.
I don't think the US government had any actual part in the 9/11-2001 attacks, but I wouldn't put it past them to deliberately neglect to do everything in their power to prevent the attack. What I think is more important is that the attack was used as a casus belli for two wars that have caused thousands of deaths and made the situation even worse in two countries that already were in bad shape (and used a lot of the US tax payers money to enrich a few of the presidents pals).
double post
I consider this to be a distinct possability. If there was a conspirecy it was a passive one, a consipercy of "not acting" despite knowing of an attack. All the stories about planting explosives in the twin towers is just too far fetched.
I've just finished watching the first season of Hero's (we are a bit behind here in the UK) and it seems to me that the plot echo's this idea closely. The parraells are obvious. Create a common fear and a pretext for war. Fight the war. Keep the people terrified so they will allow you to take away their liberties and actually thank you for it. Good plot for an evil regime and its worked.
Hamby, I just wanted to clarify. My response wasn't directed at your post. I had in mind the people who think our government knew exactly what was going to happen and allowed it to happen anyway.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Thank you. People are too preoccupied with the wrong enemy.
The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...
A lot of different places have done a good job confusing me on what happened and whodunit, all I can say for sure is, that in most cases, the groups that get accused of 9/11 are the ones who have taken advantage of the event as if they had planned it themselves, which makes them almost as despicable. Yeah, it's sort of a cop-out, but I have more important things to spend my time on, if I were an American then maybe I would invest more time, but such is not the case.
-----------------------
I'll get back to you when I think of something worthwhile to say.
people believe conspiracy theories because they simplify things. many find it more comforting to think that a tragedy of that magnitude is the work of a grand governmental conspiracy because the reality is that a couple dozen pissed of foreigners with the proper funding and motivation did tremendous damage, and that is just too scary.
“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”
“It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.”
<Please don't take the responses as personal attacks against you. You must remember that nearly everyone here is a skeptic so conspiracy theories are a tough sell with this group. Mostly, I think folks here get fed up with the sexy, dramatized conspiracy theories that seem to revolve around every major event.
It is a good topic and so far has prompted good discussion. I am glad you posted it.
Personally, I agree with Hamby's post. Excellent points!
I am just going to bring up one little problem with this WHOLE 9/11 conspiracy theory....the AMOUNT of people required to bring those buildings down with a controlled explosion, PLUS depending on which of the many theories out there, the other buildings that collapsed due to the collapase of the twin towers, being controlled, would have to have been enormous. The crew people to place the explosives, without ANYONE realizing there are explosives in KEY locations to bring it down in a controlled form, which means they would be spread out into various levels throughout the buildings, the people in goverment (since it is the goverment everyone blames) required to get this all into place, and of course some one to trigger all this....umm kinda REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY stretching it here. Oh and lets just throw out human nature....because see eventually someone will talk, just the sheer amount of people required, means someone would talk, brag or have remorse.
If this would have been a small group, lets say the hijackers....plus 1 or 2 other people ....sure i could believe it, to believe other theories that the planes were remote controlled (oh yeah the airline executives, the mechanics, seriously no one noticed a remote controls? oh and the guys on the planes making phone calls to their loved ones were also part of the conspiracy) i mean it just gets to the point of ridiculousness and just really you have to throw out common sense here. This is why those conspiracy theories lack common sense and are really really dumb, i mean, seriously they have to be stupid people to believe these theories on such a grand scale. Really people anyone that does believe this.....you must be living in a hollywood fantasy land.
I just can't say how stupid these theories really are. i mean completely fucking moronic (sorry getting a bit excited here). Ok that's all i have to say on this topic.
One more thing to clear up, i don't think anyone here is stupid, not even the person who brought this up, unless you completely believe in this conspiracy theory....then yes your a moron. As well for planes being light weight.....umm those where big planes flying at high speeds and they do weight just a weeeee bit (the 767-200 weights empty at 176,650 lbs and at full weight it is 315,000 lbs and the 757-200s come in at max 255,000 lbs)........they will do significant damage to a building yet they are also strong enough to withstand all the strains of flying at high speeds, so yeah they will try to hold together in a crash (incase anyone wants to find out, trying finding planes that have crashed into mountain sides, into the ground or in to the water in which the plane breaks up, wings get ripped off, the main body gets torn but large chucks remain intacts.