Help with a friend on the fence
Offline Sort of the same topic as the other thread I started, but this one involves a close friend looking for answers:
Recently I went on a girl's trip with 3 girls that have been my friends since high school. (For those of you that don't know me - that means we have been friends for a looooooooooong time.) None of them know that I am an atheist. On the way home, one of the women asked when was the appropriate time to introduce her children (ages 5 and 3) to church. She stated that she did not grow up in a religious household and was wondering when she should start taking the boys to church. Her goal is to make sure her children understand the importance of charity and helping others. Her husband was raised Catholic (obviously he isn't real devout if they haven't been going) and she was occasionally attended a Unitarian church growing up. She mentioned that there was a Unitarian church near her and she wanted to try attending a service there. Another woman in the car started going on about how important it is to instill morals in children and how much her children get from going to church, blah blah blah. I did not say one word. There are a couple of reasons for this - while the study of religion is interesting to me, it certainly isn't to everyone and I know this. I did not want to engage my friends in a debate and end up alienating them by making them feel like idiots. But I should have. I also did not want to walk home.
In the end I sent an e-mail to my friend that asked the question and detailed my position as a atheist and noted several statements the other woman had made and refuted them. I told her that I was not trying to turn her in one direction or the other, but to consider that there are other possibilities. I did not focus on the negative effects of religion mainly because I did not want to scare her off - she was just asking a question after all! She responded and thanked me for my honesty and said she would love to discuss the issue more in depth with me since she was not aware that I spent as much time as I do studying it. She also asked me if I would attend a service at the Unitarian church with her and give her my thoughts. I am very close to this woman and I know she thinks I am smarter than she is (nothing could be further from the truth - she has self-esteem issues) so I don't want to come off sounding like a know it all.
What I am looking for here are questions I can put to her to make her think about this decision. I don't want to force her in one direction or another, but I do want her to think about the issue as a whole. Any suggestions??
P.S. - Sorry this is so long and I am sorry my other thread was so long. These things have sort of been building up - LOL Thanks for reading all the way through if you made it this far!
P.P.S. - I can post the e-mail and her response if that helps.
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Definitely in the same category as your other thread. I have a couple more things that might help in both cases.
One of the things that you have to consider when "debating" women is that women handle conflict differently than men. With a man, it's a contest of strength and will. It's winning and losing. It's sport. With women, you're likely to end up being called a bitch if you take the head butting approach.
Women, as you know, are very sensitive to power issues. One of the more effective ways I've found to debate women without seeming like I'm debating is the socratic style. In other words, ask questions instead of making points. Steer them to the truth by asking careful questions.
The most daunting task in approaching a debate this way is keeping things on track. Whether subconsciously or consciously, your friends are likely to deflect the question away from where you want them to go. You're going to have to find nice, empathetic ways to keep them on track. It also helps to say a lot of things like, "I understand what you're saying, but that's not exactly what I'm asking. Let me rephrase, because I don't think I asked well enough."
In other words, be deferrential while being consistent and persistent.
Remember that your opponent is exercising power by voicing her opinion in answer to your questions. As it becomes obvious that you're not going to lecture her or pontificate, the power seems to shift to her side. After all, she's doing most of the talking!
The beauty of it is that you're using her perception of the power balance to your advantage, encouraging her to dig her own metaphorical grave.
Now, as to specific questions:
Do you know any people whose kids don't go to church?
Are they bad people?
Do you think children have to go to church to be moral?
If they don't have to go to church, what other alternatives are there?
Why is it that countries like Holland, Norway, and Sweden have very low crime, and great standards of living, but almost nobody goes to church there?
Are Americans really better than those people?
These are the kinds of questions I'm talking about. Once you get an immediate answer, you can focus on a fallacy in the answer, and ask a question about it.
For instance, if she says, Yes, children have to go to church to be moral, you can point out so-and-so's kid, who's a great kid, and say, "Well, I wonder why that kid is such a wonderful person without any church training. What do you think?"
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Yep, that happens.
This is excellent - just what I was missing. BGH does this to me all the time and it drives me crazy, but it does give me the feeling that he values my thoughts and forces me to think very, very carefully before answering.
Thank you so much! This particular friend is easy to talk to so these questions will come easily and the sense of empowerment it will give her will go a long way toward boosting her confidence in this area.
Once again, Hambydammit has hit the nail on the head.
It's interesting that your friend thinks she has to take her children to church in order to be a good mother. Has she done a bad job up until now? Probably not.
If she hasn't gone to church all these years, has she become a horrible person? Probably not.
Does she think only the church can provide moral guidance and good values to her children? Is she unable to guide them and be a good example to them? Probably not.
Ask her if Bill Gates is a terrible person with all his philanthropy. Nope.
Can her children be kind, moral, charitable, etc. without adding religion and all of its baggage? Yup.
It's up to your friend to teach those things, not pass the buck to the church.
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The answers to those questions are, as you suspected, no. I did mention the morality issue to her in my e-mail - I will post the e-mail tomorrow so you can all read it and point out the good and bad, plus you can get a better feel for where she is at on this issue.
Damn Hamby, that's good advice. You're spot on. Unfortunately, women tend to be a bit more emotional, especially when you disagree with them. Since I am a woman (and a bitchy little know-it-all at best), I know that I've probably lost some good points others have made because I was just too damn stubborn to admit that I was incorrect.
I think what Hamby said about asking them questions is the best thing to do. You can only lead them so far to a conclusion.
And if that doesn't work, just say really catty things about her to all your other friends when she's not around.
If god takes life he's an indian giver