Let's discuss human nature.

Iruka Naminori
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Let's discuss human nature.

I'm not sure if it's a holdover from being a fundy or if it's a conclusion I've arrived at on my own (the latter, I think), but I am not a fan of Homo sapiens.   Once I became an atheist, I wanted to become a humanist, too, but I just couldn't.  Humans are not admirable animals.

For the most part, our scientific name is a joke: "thinking man"?  Really?  I think we're more clever than wise.

Douglas Adams wrote:
It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars and so on -- whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man -- for precisely the same reasons.

Lately, I've been interested in primates and primate evolution.  Our closest relatives are chimpanzees and bonobos.  Chimpanzees seem to have the same flaws we do.  They commit murder, have wars and (in rare cases) eat baby chimps.  Bonobos, on the other hand, solve tension in the group by having sex.  Lots of sex.  A long time ago, my mother TIVO’d a documentary about bonobos, but I haven’t had a chance to watch it.  I would like to learn more about these apes and why (so far as we know) they seem to be less violent than chimpanzees and humans.

I’ve also been studying gorillas, which are far more admirable than humans and chimpanzees.  They are vegetarians, don’t commit murder, don’t have wars and are very gentle with one another.  A silverback gorilla is an impressive and intimidating sight.  Yet these creatures are very gentle with troop members and, at times, even with those who aren’t part of their troop.  I remember several stories of youngsters falling into gorilla exhibits at zoos and being cared for by silverbacks or other members of the gorilla troop.  Chimps probably would have torn the kids to pieces.

If people, chimps and bonobos are so closely related, why are bonobos less violent than chimps and people?  It’s the old, tiresome nature / nurture question, I guess.  I’m wondering if there’s something about the bonobo’s genetic makeup that causes them to be less violent or if something in their behavior (lots of sex?) eases tensions.  If so, could people learn something here?  Do the Abrahamic religions with their sexual taboos cause even more harm than we realize?...but chimps don’t have religion.  As least, I don’t think they do.  Why are they so much more violent (and less sexual) than the bonobos?

Another thing: there are no other living hominids, which is odd.  There has been some conjecture that Homo sapiens annihilated the Neanderthals.  One of the first people to theorize that Homo sapiens wiped out Homo neanderthalensis was William Golding in his novel, The Inheritors.  William Golding apparently wasn’t overly fond of Homo sapiens, either.  I haven’t read The Inheritors (yet), but my own mulling over human nature led me to re-read Lord of the Flies three times in a row recently.  Maybe I was looking for answers, but Lord of the Flies only poses more questions: Why are humans so violent?  Why do things fall apart?  And a big one for me: the kids are rescued at the end…but who is going to rescue the grownups?  Biguns, littluns: we’re all in this together.  And there is no deus ex machina, literally or figuratively, who is going to rescue us from this huge mess we’ve created.

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The way I think of most

The way I think of most people is reflected by what I thought it was going to mean when I first heard the term "The Collective unconscience." I thought it was going to be that most people are so stupid they might as well be unconscious.

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It's all about perspective.

It's all about perspective. I think the fact that most people actually care about eachother and other animals shows just a fraction of the compassion that people have.


Iruka Naminori
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CrimsonEdge wrote: It's

CrimsonEdge wrote:

It's all about perspective. I think the fact that most people actually care about eachother and other animals shows just a fraction of the compassion that people have.

Perhaps.

Unfortunately, the people I've been exposed to generally haven't cared about one another or other animals. Most of the talk about caring for one another was just lip service.   I've learned to base my assessment of other people on actions over time rather than mere words or a few meaningless actions. The people in my life basically act like the Bush administration.  

As for other animals...Sad  Let's just say I saw a lot of animals tortured, beaten and killed when I was growing up: everything from frogs to black bears.  As a natural animal-lover, this had a profound effect on me.  I tried to emulate the behavior that was acceptable, but found it wasn't a good fit for me.  I had to make a conscious decision to break from that kind of behavior.  I knew there would be consequences, but I just couldn't go along with it anymore. 

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Iruka Naminori
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MattShizzle wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:
The way I think of most people is reflected by what I thought it was going to mean when I first heard the term "The Collective unconscience." I thought it was going to be that most people are so stupid they might as well be unconscious.

Maybe. I run into a lot of stupid people, but the ones who really scare me aren't stupid. They're willfully ignorant or, even worse, willfully selfish and greedy. They know they're being assholes, but they just don't care.

I've made a half-assessed attempt to boycott the worst of the corporations, like Wal*Mart. I've explained why I don't shop there, but my mother won't respect my decision. Due to illness, she sometimes has to shop for me and buys shit from Wal*Mart. I've told her about the sweat shops, the nasty business practices. Her response was, "I don't care as long as I can save money."

She has told me the same thing about religion. Even if I "prove" there is no god, she will believe anyway.

My mother isn't stupid. She's just incredibly self-centered. She would deny that (tearfully) by pointing out "all the things she's done for me." But if I ask her to help me, I know there are always emotional strings attached. Nothing is freely given.

I am beginning to think that deep-down, most of us are just a bunch of marauding chimpanzees. We lie to ourselves about the baseness of our own natures.

I'd rather not believe this.  I'd like to see some signs that we don't bear the fatal flaw that will end in tragedy.  

On edit:  After reading Lord of the Flies I put both movies based on the book in my Netflix queue.  I watched both last night, right after making this post.  I think their arrival is what prompted this post in the first place. Was I looking for answers again?  Probably. Smiling

The 1963 version follows the book pretty closely.  The acting is adequate, but a truly stellar performance and a better-paced script would have made this a truly great movie.  The 1990 version has better actors and a better "pace," but doesn't follow the book quite as closely.  It's tough to turn a book into a good screenplay.  Both versions have strengths and weaknesses that left me hoping someone could make a better movie out of this deceptively simple book.

Of course, neither movie offers answers.  The 1963 version had some commentary.  Lord of the Flies offended the sensibilities of the French who believe children are innocent until they become sexual.  You can blame Catholicism for that particular viewpoint. Smiling  The commentator said Brits and Americans understand that children are more complex than that.   Whatever.  The story is mostly symbolic, anyway.  Children, both biguns and littluns, stand in for all of humanity.

One commentator said, "I hope that if you really stranded a bunch of kids on an island they wouldn't devolve into savagery."  Yeah, I hope so, too.  But the question remains: Are we a mostly savage species?  Looking at the world as it exists today--wars, pollution, ignoring warning signs we may be fatally poisoning the planet, etc.--does not speak well of human nature. 

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Iruka Naminori
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Here's something that

Here's something that occurred to me. Smiling

By whose standards am I judging humanity?  Obviously I'm judging humanity by some kind of standard I've absorbed as a member of humanity.  Of course, any time we judge we are doing so by some human standard.

Perhaps I'm expecting too much of the naked ape? 

Perhaps not.

We should at least be moral enough that we don't destroy ourselves. 

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I'm not a big fan of human

I'm not a big fan of human nature.  I never have been, even when they were at their height.  Their music just never appealed.

 

 

 

 

(Sorry, I had to Sticking out tongue

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People are people.  We

People are people.  We have to accept that.


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It's fascinating to see how

It's fascinating to see how people can degenerate giving the right conditions.

Stanford Prison Experiment

 

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Susan wrote: It's

Susan wrote:

It's fascinating to see how people can degenerate giving the right conditions.

Stanford Prison Experiment

 

Or in this case the wrong ones.

My brother was a prison medic and to do this he had to undergo warder training.  This was six weeks long, had psychological evaluation during it and then was probationary for six months.  They don't let anyone carry a baton. 

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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My family are pretty dang

My family are pretty dang nice for the most part.  Animal lovers too.  So I think the way you are raised determines whether you like or dis-like humanity.

Now humans are capable of remarkable cruelty and evil tendences.  But they are also capable of remarkably selfish compassion.

The fact that we can think of these things, however, shows us that we can figure out how to bring out the best in people.  First we would need to stop dividing ourselves.  So that first and foremost must mean a death to all the world's religions. 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Iruka Naminori
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Susan wrote: It's

Susan wrote:

It's fascinating to see how people can degenerate giving the right conditions.

Stanford Prison Experiment

 

Yes, Susan.  I'm aware of that experiment.  It must be part of every freshman psych class. And I believe I have seen the power trip mentality in the attitude of my brother.

Interestingly, my entire nuclear family worked (or works) at the local prison.  My mother worked as an accountant there for years, then decided to become a correctional officer, which really pissed off my brother. 

My brother has been a correctional officer for most of his adult life.  He likes to see himself as a "crime fighter."  I think he just likes to poke sticks at animals in cages.  He was cruel to animals as a kid.  Now he can get paid to be cruel to humans.

When my mother decided to become a correctional officer, it wilted my brother's dick.  If your mother is doing the same job you are, it's awfully hard to envision that job as uber-macho, isn't it? Smiling  Actually, I rather enjoyed my mother's little rebellion.  If my brother had a problem with it, it was his problem.

My father was a firefighter. His last job was working with inmate volunteer firefighters.  He detested it.  I think he wanted to view himself as better than the inmates.  Working with them somehow sullied his (self) righteousness.  He made it a point to run them into the ground.  Just a few months before his death, before the return of his cancer, he was hiking up mountains like it was nothing.  The inmates, which were twenty years younger, had trouble keeping up.  Smiling

Before he worked at the local prison, my brother worked at San Quentin on Death Row.  He readily absorbed the correctional officer mentality. 

Obviously, the inmates on Death Row are the farthest thing from upstanding citizens. Still, it cheapens us all to treat them as subhuman.  Many times I've heard people claim Death Row inmates are animals.  And so they are.  So are we.  If we expect to rid ourselves of violence, we need to start treating others as we would like to be treated.

Ah, the golden rule again!  Jesus--if he existed--didn't invent it, but it's a pretty damn good idea.  I certainly wish I could follow it more consistently than I do.

From the things my brother has said, I believe he has probably been guilty of police brutality.  When San Quentin still had a gas chamber, he would taunt the inmates with visual images of the deaths they would eventually suffer.  He'd walk the row, singing, "Plop, plop.  Fizz, fizz.  Oh, what a relief it is."  This was in reference to the sulfuric acid being dropped into the potassium cyanide beneath the condemned inmate's death chair.  He told me many times he wanted to be one of the officers to drag an inmate kicking and screaming to his execution.

The death penalty is a sad commentary on human nature.  Even if someone deserves to die--and I daresay most, if not all, San Quentin Death Row inmates deserve to die--it drags down all of humanity to create such a culture of death.  I believe it hurts not only the inmate, but the victims and their survivors, the courts, the correctional officers, the executioner--everyone.  Heck, it hurts me that my brother has so bought into the culture of death.  It is reflected in his personal choices of unrestrained greed and his extreme right-wing politics.

Many of those affected may not even realize it as they decend into the savagery depicted in Lord of the Flies.

If we want to create human dignity, we must learn to treat even the worst specimens of humanity with dignity, whether or not they deserve it.  That is part of ascending out of this hole we have dug for ourselves.

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There are certainly a lot of

There are certainly a lot of examples of ugliness in human nature, but human nature also carries the potential for growth and improvement.  We can learn to be great people and we can learn to be terrible people.


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I believe that human nature

I believe that human nature carries with it the capacity to commit atrocities, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that since atrocities have been committed; but humans also possess the ability to weigh their actions before they take them, to reflect on actions already taken, and to regulate urges.

 

Self-control, reflection, and forethought are more difficult than kicking back and letting your primal urges do all the work for you. Thinking independently is also more difficult than conforming to the group.

I don't think we are necessarily a contemptible species; I just think that there are too many of us with lazy minds. We have the capacity to be terrible, but we have the capacity to be something great. It's just harder to be great. That's the problem.

Speculation, of course.

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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   we have arrived to our

   we have arrived to our newest time, where mass communication as education is truly our new unrealized blessing. ( fix the tv/radio )

... our temporary world will see dramatic change relativley soon, but we today will all be called dead ?  

, ultimately huamanity getting off and beyoud this planet is something I do root for ....

, on this day defeating the god of abraham and fixing the world tv is my indignation. 

,yes to someones question ?,  I do get drunk on planet earth, to play with my sad reality ....

sorry if I've wasted anyones time, but surely there's always someone who partly understands our human nature, who would say "I am god as you" ....

 

   

     


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Ikura wrote: Bonobos, on

Ikura wrote:
Bonobos, on the other hand, solve tension in the group by having sex.  Lots of sex.  A long time ago, my mother TIVO’d a documentary about bonobos, but I haven’t had a chance to watch it.  I would like to learn more about these apes and why (so far as we know) they seem to be less violent than chimpanzees and humans.

There's a theory that it's because bonobo females forage in groups together, whereas chimpanzee females forage as individuals (because they compete with gorillas for forage on the chimpanzee side of the river).  The observed behavior suggests that when females stick together, they can counter male aggression, which is the major driving force behind chimp society. 

It's pretty clear that the environmental differences in forage competition drive the social evolution.  Something similar happens in Japanese snow monkey society too.  It's still an unanswered question how much the social differences have led to the physical/morphological differences between chimps and bonobos.  But the behavior is hardwired--bonobos in captivity raised among chimps still behave more like bonobos.

"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert