Homeopathy
Posted on: August 18, 2007 - 9:22am
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Homeopathy
I'm surprised this hasn't been here before. I'd say homeopathy is an irrational precept. It basically says diluting a chemical to the point there is one fucking molecule of it in a gallon of water is just as effective (or even more so!) as full strength - the water somehow "spiritually remembers" what the chemical does. (????????) 
Anyone who knows a little more please post, including anyone who wants to defend this ridiculous idea.
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The whole alterative medicine industry is just one big con, its part of the culture where 'every is an expert' and who needs people who actually study medicine and science
At my grad school (occupational therapy) we had a lecture last semester on "alternative medicine". The lecturer asked if anyone had tried alternative medicine, and most people raised their hands.
She then asked if any of us were skeptical of allternative medicine. Myself and the one other very rational, skeptical and abrasively blunt girl raised our hands. The two of us proceeded to basically bitch about alternative medicine and what a crock if shit it all was to the rest of the 60 or so people there.
One of the topics that came up was homeopathy. I had to explain what it was because no one in the class really knew.
Of course, the sellers of homeopathy will continue to assert and try to prove that it works because then they get to sell bottles of water for $20 each.
Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
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It is incomprehensible to me how these "products" make it onto the shelves, much less that enough people buy it to keep these companies in business. A high school chemistry book suffices to dispatch homeopathy as nonsense.
There are no theists on operating tables.
For everything you wanted to know about Homeopathy but was afraid to ask: http://www.homeowatch.org/
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
The second part to Enemies of Reason tore homeopathy apart. Sadly homeopathy is a "medical" procedure paid for by taxpayers in England. Taxpayers in the States pay for it as well when we need to cover the costs of neglected health.
You know, I just gave myself a Ph.D. in homeopathy. Anyone can do it.
I try to refrain from impugning all of what people consider to be "alternative" medicine. Take herbal products, for example. The main problem with those is that there's no industry standard, so you might be wasting money, but anybody who has ever smoked pot knows that it does affect you. The world's most powerful stimulant comes from a plant (coca plant) and poppies turn into opium and the strongest pain killers known to man. So...that's my take on it. Homeopathy, though...total bullshit.
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I'm not really sure what homeopathy is, but I will say not everything about alternative medicine is bad. herbs and stuff are used in Europe with some success (ironic b/c Europe has many more skeptics but they are willing to research more stuff). the problem in this country is the pharmaceutical companies have a stranglehold and they won't allow research into anything that's not one of their drugs. I know many people, including me who have been helped by alternative medicine in conjunction with "regular" medicine. I'm not talking about faith healing or any nonsense like that. anyways, what does alternative medicine have to do with religion??
I think the link between the two--homeopathy and religion--is that they both require faith in the unproven.
Can someone show me where in the TOS it specifies that only religion can be discussed? I missed that.
I'd just like to add though, that the principle of vaccination is similar to the concept of homeopathy. That and allergen desensitization via controlled but attenuated exposure. So, the idea isn't totally warrantless. These are the only examples, that I am aware of, supported by science and that are truly, medically effective.
Too bad stupidity isn't poisonous.
As someone that is chronically ill and therefore talks with a few more sick individuals than the average person I think people resort to homeopathy because they are at the point where they will try anything.
However, I think these alternative medicine people are starting to get wise to the skeptism and I don't mean that in a good way...
I once had a nurse push some various massage techniques on me. It seemed to work but I was also hyped up on narcotics at the time. Anyway, of course she was pushing advertisements for her on-the-side therapy. When I questioned her about it sounded like legitimate massage therapy although when I later came home and researched the techniques and 'certification' she presented I found out that it was nothing more than some hyped up magnetic crap.
hi Shelley,
I too am chronically ill so I can relate to what you are saying. I should have added this to my previous post. While I've gotten some help from herbs and stuff, I've also seen a lot of charlatans as well. The massage thing you mentioned is pretty common. I had one lady saying she could cure me by praying to the "angels". I left. You're also right about people turning to homeopathy b/c of desparation. Little has been done by way of a cure for what I have to deal with, and I've known many in my condition who have turned to other stuff, with limited success. Fear and desparation make people do scary things. As I said before this is some good stuff in it, but the problem is it's mixed with a lot of bs.
Correction. Homeopathy takes faith in the disproven.
Primarily, Homeopathy is a vitalist doctrine which states that diseases have spiritual causes that imbalance a mysterious vital force unique to humans. These diseases can be corrected by balancing the vital force by means of taking remedy as a substance which is extremely diluted. The reason for the ultra-high dilution is because, according to Homeopathy, high doses of the medicines associated actually cause the symptoms which they attempt to cure. Hence, Homeopaths recommend that the substance be diluted so much that not one single molecule of active agent of the substance remains. The reason for this is because Homeopathy holds to an outdated doctrine of water memory, which is based on an utterly outdated, almost Aristotilean philosophical notion that substances have “essences” which may leave “marks” on those substances which come into contact with them. Hence, water retains a “memory” of a substance so that even though it is diluted to the point where there is no more substance, the water (which is all that is left) is still an effect remedy. Often, Homeopathic remedies are ground with a mortar and pestle, and are then shaken vigorously in alcohol or water, which Homeopaths believe causes a “memory” of the substance or an “essence” to be left upon the water, and that this essence corrects vital imbalances in the body.
The dilutions of Homeopathy are classed by Roman numerals, with the most common being X and C dilutions. A C dilution involves diluting the substance to 1% of the original level, so a 2C dilution would be diluting to 1%, and then diluting that 1% to a further one percent, which means that a 2C dilution results in 1/10,000 of the original concentration. For each level of C dilution, the amount of active agent drops by two orders of magnitude. The most common dilution is 30C, which means that the substance has been diluted by 100^30, or 60 orders of magnitude. Since an X dilution (10% dilution in succession) drops the concentration by one order of magnitude, we speak of X and C in a logarithmic relationship whereby a 2C dilution would be the same as 4X (1/100/100 is the same as 1/10/10/10/10), and so on.
Modern biology and chemistry which renders the idea of this actually working as absurd, however, for now, all that we need to know, needless to say, is that in a Homeopathic remedy there exists not one single molecule of active solution. None. It’s gone. It is just gone. By definition, a Homeopathic remedy cannot contain a single active molecule of the active agent. In a 30C dilution, there is one molecule of active agent per 106 cubic light years of active solution. The number of water molecules needed in a Homeopathic solution such that one molecule of active agent is present rivals the number of atoms in the universe. There are even more absurd dilutions associated with some substances, such as 200C, where a simple calculation reveals that for a single molecule of the active solution to be present would entail the existence of 10^120 universes of this order filled with solution.
Primarily, the laws of chemistry and physics depend on atoms being discrete entities exchanging electrons in chemical reactions. A substance does not have an “essence”, all that specifically differentiates elements is the number of protons in the nucleus, and usually the neutrons as well. Atoms make and break bonds and retain their qualities based solely on the exchange of electrons. Trends in the periodic table are associated entirely with atoms having these properties, periodicity, electronegativity, ionization energies, melting and boiling points etc. all of which can be explained entirely in terms of their atomic structure.
In chemistry, reactions depend on what are called moles. A mole is a unit of measure of substance based on Avogadro’s Constant, where one mole is 6.02x10^23 entities. For example, one mole of sand would be 6.02x10^23 sand grains. In chemistry, we always use gram-moles, since by definition one mole of a substance will be its atomic mass expressed in grams. For example, Carbon-12 has an atomic mass of 12, which means exactly 12g of it contains one mole, which means it contains 6.02x10^23 carbon atoms. Chemical reactions, being discrete reactions depending on the exchanging of electrons by discrete atoms and molecules, depend entirely on moles, and chemical formulas have mole ratios associated. In chemistry, the mole is the most important unit. Consider a simple reaction: 2HCl + MgO ---- MgCl2 + H20. A simple reaction, Acid + Metal Oxide– Salt + Water. Now, as you can see, the ratio between Hydrochloric acid to Magnesium Oxide is 2:1, whilst the ratio between Magnesium Chloride and Water is 1:1. This means that 2 moles of Magnesium Oxide will react with 1 mole of Magnesium Oxide. We can calculate, depending of course on the accuracy of our mass measurement devices, the number of atoms participating in chemical reactions, since moles = mass x formula mass. These calculations are so accurate they are used every day by doctors, chemists, pharmacists, all around the world. They are so accurate we can calculate acid-base titrations to one hundred-thousandth of milliliter. It is the basis of a fundamental principle which flies in the face of Homeopathic idiocy: The Dose-Response Curve.
One more thing to note. Homeopathic remedies are not administered on standard diagnostic test. Rather, Homeopaths do an extensive analysis of emotional patterns, circadian rhythms and such, and assign the patient a “type”. Apparently, the “constitutional type” is believed to have better affinity with certain remedies. (Again, under the laws of biology and chemistry, that would be meaningless)
What is a type, you ask? It depends on certain parameters, and I assure you, with all of my creative power I could not make any of this up. I am telling no lies about what Homeopaths believe. The “Nux Vomica” type, for example, is angry, vain, and greedy, often hyperactive. The “Pustilla type” is a young woman of perhaps 20, with blue eyes, and quite delicate, emotionally fragile. There are many more “types”. There are the “Sulfer types” for example, and the “Ignatia types”. The Homeopath translates the person’s emotional type, life events, and such into a most appropriate remedy based on the law of similarity.
This is the basis of their diagnosis?
Whilst the worst part of Homeopathy, apart from its philosophy, are the remedies used. There are 3,000 listed, and most are reminiscint of an age where we cured “evil spirits” with trepanning. Of course, since there is not any active molecule of substance left in a Homeopathic remedy, the remedy used is immaterial. I could be put chemotherapy in a Homeopathic solution and give it to a skeptical cancer patient and rest assured nothing would happen to the patient. Some common Homeopathic remedies are:
-Essence of Belladona
-Calcium Sulfate
-Fresh Duck Liver
-Sodium Chloride (That’s Table Salt)
-Cobra Venom
-Tarantula Extract
These are not “medicines”, this is the sort of thing that is reminiscent of an Apothecary in Harry Potter.The last two, obviously, are lethal, and were it not for the fact that there is none of it left in a Homeopathic remedy, it would surely kill the patient.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
Yes, but vaccines rely on the ability of CD4 Leukocytes and other T Cells to retain a memory of a virus by the antigens, which has been verified by molecular biology. Homeopathy relies on the ability of water to retain a memory of an "essence", which has been disproven by chemistry.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
OK, I do like your word choice better. That makes it even worse. Appreciate the education too.
But in that vein, religion is disproven also.
All this talk about types has me curious now. I want to know what my type is. Might make for a cool screen name somewhere.
Too bad stupidity isn't poisonous.
If homeopathy is true, then why don't I get the effects of fish piss when I drink tap water?
It is at a lower concentration that the actual 'medicine'
Actually, it's probably a higher concentration - hard to get a lower concentration than "zero!"
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Yeah, I meant higher.
I had a friend who was into homeopathy once. Until one day he drank a glass of distilled water and died of an overdose of everything.
good one Aerik.
Now, i think that many are still unclear on the term Homeopathy.
(rubs his hands, his field of expertise, pharmacy student)
Homeopathy is in NO way related to herbs or natural medicine (meaning medical extracts from plants) , those are named PHYTOPHARMAKA.
Homeopathy is a concept so ridiculous and malicious it should be banned from drugstores and human history.
It implies that whatever causes similar symptoms to your dissease will heal you if diluded.
Now hearing that concept many laymans will agree, since that is the principle of vaccination works,
taking a small portion of the virus and neutring it so the bod can produce antibodies.
Homeopathy however doesnt use bakteria on bakterial infections, not viruses on viral infections, it takes highly diluted solutions (often so diluted there is no way of getting one atom in a pill/drop) of common elementary atoms (mostly heavy metals)
Blindness is cured with mercury, because mercury causes blindness.
This concept was very popular in the 18th century since the only alternative was to drain blood by leeches.
So someone that had a cold would better survive a treatment where you just drink water,
than draining your blood by a cerrulist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U
this is a supreme lecture by James Randi on this topic.
Now why do i make such a fuss about it?
Because ppl that believe in it, deny using regular medicine.
Second because i had a real life example what happens if ppl go that far,
some friend of my father denied to take his child into the hospital with heavy pneumonia (41°C fever) and treated it with homeopathic medicine for 2 weeks.
Luckily the child survived, but its lung is permanently damaged due to scarification of the tissue.
This is really dangerous! Its not a joke, and this treatment should be deemed obsolete!
Also i was rather shocked that i had a lecture on homeopathy (its after all the university follows the teaching plan of the state! and Pharmacy here has a exam verified by the government before he can work, since its such an responsible job)
So how does responsibility corespond with lung-damaged children?
PROFIT!
Homeopathic medicine sells about 2-10x better than regular medicine, while being 2-3x more expensive.
Yes ppl pay 15-30€ for 50ml of pure water (thats what an LM dillution is)
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I love that clip of James Randi. Had seen it before...but he says it all right there.
It is interesting that the greek word phytofarmaka has been adopted for herbal remedies while in Greece we use the word to describe plant pesticides.
I recently was part of a discussion regarding a new seminar on homeopathy in a Greek University. The defenders of homeopathy exhibited remarkably religious argumentation, beginning with "modern science doesn't know everything", dismissing the irrationalities of homeopathic medicine with "look, it just works" and ending with accusations of supporting the large pharmaceutical lobbies,described ina satanic light, that kill us with improper testing for our cash.
One of the defenders was a person I know to be an atheist and extremely anti-religious (opposing the local Greek Orthodox Church) yet didn't seem to realze the similarities in arguments.
I particularly enjoyed his use of the argument that homeopathy doesn't have any sideeffects, so it can't hurt to try (Pascal's wager applied to homeopathy).
This isdemonstrable proof that lack of faith in god does not mean a person is on the whole reasonable
Coffee... I worship at thy altar every morning
Thank you for clearing that up! Obviously the term "homeopathy "has been hijacked-I see it used on herbs and natural stuff all the time-not for what you mentioned but for stuff like vitamins even. Everything is "homeopathy" now. PHYTOPHARMAKA makes much more sense. That "diluted" thing really is bs. Thanks for explaining.
Our whole family uses hopeopathic medicine since I remember, whenever it's needed, and it always works. I mean, in cases of a flu, sore throat, and such a common diseases. We tend here to use antibiotics only when it's getting really tough (or we have no time), you know, overusing antibiotics makes the bacteries get immune. And most of such a medicine for common diseases is about hiding the symptoms, not actual curing.
All homeopathical medicine I've ever used in all my life was based on a milk sugar and produced by a company named Boiron. I really don't know anything about bottles of homeopathized water or whatever. My trust in homeopathy and other alternative medicine is based on my life experience. There is a doctor in near town who uses alternative medicine and I have been always healthier in years where I was at his clinic to get some cupping glasses on my back, and homeopathic meds, than in years where I skipped it. It's easy to see it on a school certificate in missed lessons. Some guys had a lot over 100 of missed hours and it wasn't just skipping school, they were really such a weaklings and sick all the time. I couldn't understand it, I was almost always healthy, usually about 20-50 of missed hours per year.
Homeopathics isn't based on chemicals. It's based on information. You can say it's not physical, but it's physical just like are data on your NAND Flash memory. It's just a change in microstructure. You certainly know the japanese guy's experiments, when he took the same water and put a papers with words around it and then he froze it and photographed the ice crystals. Water with words like love enveloped around it had beautiful crystallic structure, bad words caused the photo look like a sewage. You see, the water is really an information carrier. It's quite unique substance, I have read somewhere has the highest known energy in its chemical bonds, it can gather the most heat in it, and so on.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Homeopathy has failed scientifically. If it hadn't, Randi would not still be offering a million dollars for someone to prove that it is anything more than a placebo.
It is clear that placebo's are very effective and there are many statistics that support this. There has never been anything to suggest that homeopathy is at all more effective than a placebo.
Homeopathy is a scam and nothing more.
I'm in favor of alternative medicine. It's a sketchy industry, but it's not all bullshit. Homeopathy looks like total bullshit. It reminds me of leeching.
Many pharmaceutical drugs aren't necessarily good for you, though. Some can have damaging and deadly effects on the body, such as Adderall and Oxycontin.
Reflexology, an alternative medicine practice, is definitely NOT bullshit. I practice it and have since I was a child and IT WORKS, you feel it. I had a terrible cold, pressed a sinus spot continually and as I did my sinuses cleared completely. It's helped countless cases, plus it's relaxing and good for the body.
It helps me, I don't have "faith" in it. The practice teaches that the nerves in your feet connect to the nerves in your body, and applying pressure can alleviate symptoms. Makes sense to me. It helps, so I do it.
Many herbs have good, beneficial elements such as antioxidants and detoxifying properties.
I'm a skeptic on many types of homeopathic medicine, but I think there are many practices that show positive results in people. They can be used alongside modern medicine without substitution.
I think some of these practices should seriously be looked into further or tried before they are scoffed at.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
There's even no exact definition of why and how exactly placebo works, how anyone then can prove anything? I think, the million's quite safe.
"we must broaden our conception of the limits of endogenous human control" - that's what I found searching for the explanation.
If homeopathics would be simply a placebo, then why there are all these latin names, heavy metals, precise dosing in amount and time, dozens of kinds and exact specifications for each of them? A placebo is basically a simple thing, homeopathics isn't. If it would be possible, doctors and producers would gladly skip all the work with variety of kinds and could work only with a few different pills, that would be enough for psychological effect, but for some reason, they won't do it.
If is placebo effect so efficient, then it's really interesting that homeopatics can inflict it without a belief, let's say, on a patient who had never seen homeopathics before. I started getting homeopatics as a very young kid and I had no idea what it is or if it works, all what I cared for was the fact that these homeopatics were sweet. And they worked anyway. If it wouldn't work, my mom simply wouldn't spend money on them.
You may call it a faith, but you see a faith everywhere you don't see.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
It is necessarily true. A homoepathic solution represents a dilution greater than molar concentration. Which means that there is an exponentially small probability of even 1 molecule of the original agent in the solution. To win the Randi Challenge, a homeopathist would only have to distinguish between a sample homeopathic dilution, and a sample without the diluted agent. We would thereby know that science has hitherto failed in its assessment of homeopathy. Apparently, not a single homeopathist is confident enough in the efficacy of his own product to submit to this simple test.
How and why a placebo works is a separate question altogether. If a placebo does in fact work, why ought we to bother with extra work (and extra expense) of homeopathic preparations?
As mentioned above, if anyone is able to distinguish in a controlled test a homeopathic sample from a non-homeopathic sample, we can say that these precise dosings and exact specifications actually count for something.
If I ever decide to run a scam, I'll be sure to make liberal use of latin names and heavy metals, with lots of "precision" and "specifications". Thanks for the tip.
Perhaps that's because honest practitioners of medicine realize that there's more to healing than simply "psychological effect".
If a malady improves of its own accord, one can falsely credit homeopathy, whose effect was entirely negligible in resolving said malady. No offense to mommy dearest, but it sounds like that is what happened.
You seem quite certain you can appreciate the difference in effect between a "sweet" homeopathic pill and a regular sugar pill. If so, that $1 million is yours. Go make some science.
There are no theists on operating tables.
zarathustra, thanks for replying. You hit everything I would have said.
Has everyone seen/heard the recent news that trace ammounts of pharmaceuticals have been found in the drinking water? Wouldn't the fact that people are NOT OD'ing and that people still need to take these drugs (rather than just drinking water) prove that homeopathy is bullshit?
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The fact that they have found anything shows that it is far too powerful to be useful. Homeopathic remedies would be totally undetectable.
Actually, since the homeopathic crap is supposed to do the opposite of the undiluted ingredient, shouldn't there be these effects?
Depression due to homeopathic depressant from diluted anti-depressants
High blood pressure due to diluted blood pressure meds
lots of men with limp dicks due to homeopathic anti-viagra
high birth rates due to homeopathic anti-birth control.
lots of insane people due to homeopathic psychotics from diluted anti-psychotics (maybe fundies drink a lot of tap water?)
and shouldn't regular meds not work if drank with tap water, due to being cancelled out by the homeopathic version?
All evidence points to the fact that homeopathic medicine is irrational, and any benefits from it are purely due to the placebo effect.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
By the way, the medicine is strong, when there is a chemical concentration, but homeopathy is considered the strongest in greatest dilutions, which are the most informatically active. In every dilution step a majority of water and a part of previous solution must be thoroughly shaked, this is the process of making the homeopathics stronger. So much for homeopathic theory, nobody will consider these waters full of chemically present medicines as a homeopathics. They slowly get concentrated in a body and cause problems, if a body doesn't manage to dump them in time. You know, healthy people shouldn't take meds when they doesn't need it, or they become sick.
The psychosomatic idea in patient's mind, that the pill will help (even if it's secretly a placebo) is an information. Patient provides the information, which the body uses for healing. Homeopathics are too based on an information - on the ability of water to store an information in it's structure. So the patient doesn't need to believe, to provide the information, while it's already in the homeopathic pills. The informational capacity of water was already proven by the japanese guy. (will find the link)
Notice, that the process of consciously affecting the healing process isn't completely explained, humbly said.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
https://www.hado.net/ - I see the guy is a doctor, he has a lab, a microscopes, a title, he probably isn't kidding of us, it's not really a new thing that a water can contain informations. If it is really so, which is quite probable, then...
A thought is an information. A thought affects water. Water stores the information. Patient, who unknowingly takes placebo, believes that it will heal. The thought affects a water in a body (thus about 90% of the body). This is why a placebo has effect, but it's the patient's thought, what has the effect.
A water can also store the information directly. You see, when you put a thought inside a water (no matter how, like you can just write it down and envelope the paper around the glass with it) and then you freeze it, the water crystal is absolutely different to a crystal of unaffected water, always. It's an effect of the stored information. If a water or any other medium contains a healing information, it can be given to a patient and it will informatically affect the body, just like the patient would think of being healthy, because the body is 90% of water.
It's simple, homeopathics works like a placebo, because both patient's confidence in medicine and the homeopathic pill contains healing informations. The only thing you probably can't understand (because today's neat little popular science's box doesn't contain it YET but I believe it's a question of time), is that the water can be informatically affected without a physical contact, which is something like a scientifical taboo. But be open-minded, flying was once impossible too. Think forward. Hydroinformatics may be one of future medical sciences. But fully understanding the process can really change the scientific world view.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
The notion water can store information from a piece of paper, or that it stores the information from the solution is absurd.
First, the 'medicine' is diluted so far, that none of the original water molcules (let alone the actual solvant .) are there.
Second, that entails that the water 'reads' the information and then somehow stores it. But stores it on what exactly? and how does it 'read' it?
That water crystal experiment was in that bullshit movie 'What the bleep do we know'. Now what's the story on this 'experiment'? Was it submitted to a scientific journal for peer review? Can you point me to where we can download data on the experiment? Or did the guy use his microscope to take a picture of the nicest looking crystal from the 'love' bottle and the nastiest looking crystal from the 'hate' bottle?
Firstly, Every time the solution is diluted, it's all intensely shaked for a long time, this is a process when the added water copies an information from the original water. By this process all the volume of the water will contain the original information.
The added water didn't undergo this process before, so it's homeopathically non-active. And also chemically clean (destilled, I guess).
Secondly, it's stored in the water molecular structure, but how, dunno. It's quite diffcult to observe it, when the water isn't frozen. If almost no scientist ever cared about it, then there are no theories and tools developed to help in a research. Some areas of science are just ignored, laughed at, or even forbidden.
Well, not literally forbidden, but anyone who touches them, must pay the research from own money (not from grants or research funds, as usual), and media aren't really quick with an objective or extensive reports of the research.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
This experiment was well known many years before the movie itself appeared. Sorry, I'm not a scientist, I don't have a collection of scientific journals. If it disturbs your sleep, try some asertivity and contact dr. Emoto, he should have his e-mail on the page.
According to the related wikipedia article, Dr. Emoto is quite short on double-blind, bias-proof scientific methods, which I understand, because a scepticist messing around the testing water samples could screw up the experiment, the water probably wouldn't be "love" anymorv, but "scepticism", which would be surely an ugly pattern.
However, In 2006 Emoto pubished a paper together with Dean Radin in the peer-reviewed Journal of Science and Healing in which they claim to have proven in a double blind test during which 2000 people who prayed in Tokyo that those people could increase the aesthetic appeal of water stored in a room in California compared to water in another room.[citation needed
James Randi, founder of the James Randi Educational Foundation, has publicly offered Emoto one million dollars if his results can be reproduced in a double-blind study.[9] Randi has also stated that he does not expect to ever have to pay the million dollars.
Where the hell was Randi, when this experiment was happening?
Yes, it is absurd if you assume that everything is already discovered AND explained. But it isn't. The scientific progress is now exponential and there are no signs it would stop soon. What was "impossible" last year, this year is theoretically considered and next year it's seen in practice.
Firstly, Every time the solution is diluted, it's all intensely shaked for a long time, this is a process when the added water copies an information from the original water. By this process all the volume of the water will contain the original information.
The added water didn't undergo this process before, so it's homeopathically non-active. And also chemically clean (destilled, I guess).
Secondly, it's stored in the water molecular structure, but how, dunno. It's quite diffcult to observe it, when the water isn't frozen. If almost no scientist ever cared about it, then there are no theories and tools developed to help in a research. Some areas of science are just ignored, laughed at, or even forbidden.
Well, not literally forbidden, but anyone who touches them, must pay the research from own money (not from grants or research funds, as usual), and media aren't really quick with an objective or extensive reports of the research.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
The bottom line is that if homeopathy was effective, there would be results published in scientific journals. The post above contained (at least) 2 extremely irrational means of reasoning - typically used by pseudoscientists.
1. We don't know everything so we should just assume this is true.
2. Scientists/Corporations/The Media are for some reason involved in a massive conspiracy to stop any research on "controversial" ideas. This is utter rubbish. When there aren't experiments being done on something such as this it is because they have already been done and clearly shown the hypothesis has no merit. Don't you think these companies that make pseudoscience products would cream their pants to fund an experiment if it could show their product actually was effective? By the way, the media regularly is extremely unskeptical of some very ridiculous ideas until they are (and sometimes after they are) disproven - see that ridiculous "The Secret" and Facilitated Communication.
How the fuck could water copy information anyway? Utter nonsense.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Another thing - you know survival manuals often teach that if you really need water and can only get it from a questionable source you can purify it by using a small ammount of bleach? If homeopathy was true wouldn't this poison someone? I'm thinking of making a short YouTube video refuting homeopathy which would end with me using a drop of something mildly poisonous in a glass of spring water and drinking it to no ill effect - which would be likely fatal were homeopathy true.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
So let me get this, this Dr. who wants to prove his theory correct holds another experiment to prove skeptics wrong - by himself nonetheless - and you then expect Randi to just take the doc's word for it?,
The entire point of the million dollar award is that it should all be done in a controlled environment, so that there's no other explanation.
So lets use this on homeopathy - if the water remembers the stuff that was diluted in it you could totally ruin the medicine's effect by not thinking it would work?
Let's take it to the next level - to get the full effect would you need to believe that the medicine is going to work and is proven to work?, ever heard of the placebo effect?
Hey, you might argue that the water's memory from messages it received and having actual material in it are different so I can't make the comparison between homeopathy and the guy's experiments, but that would also require you to drop this experiment as a proof that water has memory thus making homeopathy medicine work.
You don't see a lot of scientists trying to disprove the existence of squirrels on the moon either, must be lack of funds.
Yes, the whole idea "it only works if you believe in it." Typical magical thinking - often a predictor for schizophrenia.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
That's ok, 'Dr' Emoto isn't a scientist either...
You'd think a 'Doctor' would have a real doctorate, instead of a piece of paper from a diploma mill like Open International University of Alternative Medicine, wouldn't you?
http://www.altmeduniversity.com/
What next, 'the sceptic ate my homework' ? Surely you can see that this is the DUMBEST rationalization EVER.
EXPLORE: The Journal of Science & Healing addresses the scientific principles behind, and applications of, evidence-based healing practices from a wide variety of sources, including conventional, alternative, and cross-cultural medicine. It is an interdisciplinary journal that explores the healing arts, consciousness, spirituality, eco-environmental issues, and basic science as all these fields relate to health.
Can you say 'woo-woo'???
Dean Radin -'Senior Scientist' Institute of Noetic Sciences
"Research supported by the Institute of Noetic Sciences has been criticized as lacking in strict "peer-reviewed empiricism"..."
"The skeptical organization Quackwatch includes the Institute of Noetic Sciences on its list of questionable organizations. The list outlines nine criteria they feel are useful in determining the reliability of groups offering health-related information."
So what we have is one guy with a fraudulent 'Doctorate' doing a bogus 'experiment' with a member of a Woo-Woo factory in Petaluma California... Really, do I need to spell it out for you?
I'm pretty sure that Randi and the JREF weren't invited to observe the original experiment, and unlike the Woo-Woo crowd, they don't rely on visions, telepathy or direct revelation to keep in touch...
Oh, I see... They SHAKE IT UP REAL GOOD... that explains how it violates chemical and physical laws... Yep... change the ATOMIC STRUCTURE of a substance by shaking it up...
It's quite difficult to observe...because it doesn't exist.
Your suggestion that research is surpressed or forbidden is simply stupid.
Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.
I guess "dr." Emoto is one of these people, who can't study something they don't agree with. It's really diffcult, when a professor loudly and proudly swears on a heap of lies, it feels like... well, it's kinda bizarre. Dr. Emoto probably couldn't sacrifice years of his life for an archaic institution. We know from history, how far can people outrun a current scientific knowledge level, sometimes for centuries. Sometimes it's quite simple, not by outrunning the science, but taking a few steps aside, into an ignored area.
Interesting pages, thanks for the link. I have checked these criteria and it's mostly appealing to an official monopoly of institutions. Some of these fraudulent organizations in the list looks suspiciously, while there are other ideas, which I agree with and I had no idea they're out there considered as false. Like that amalgam tooth fillings are safe. I have never seen an inert soft metal. They measure a mercury amount in urine, but how much of it stays in body tissues, did anyone measure it? Anyway, I know where to put my eventual money when I won't know, what else to do with them. I hope the ceramic or polymeric fillings won't produce electricity dental shock, when biting an aluminium.
Quackwatch just puts all of these institutions, false or true, into one list. Like in that saying, who does nothing, screws up nothing.
Frozen water, sliced and placed under a microscope should be easy to observe, I just emphasized, that it can't be done by naked eye in liquid state. Don't play with words, you don't have to, or do you?
Please, look at yourself. Would you ever recognize, if an obviously stupid and unbelievably unbelievable research would be suppressed? Probably not, you would automatically consider it as a quackery, you make up an idea of it and then you judge it. This is a new version of a witch hunt, a crusade against a blasphemy, again a dominant institution against minor organizations and individuals. I think something is wrong with the system, all people should cooperate to find the truth, there's no such a hope in mutual competing.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Why can't we appeal to a higher power (Brien, Kelly etc. ) and get a realtime chatroom open on this site, it would cut down on the "recent posts" backlog. How about it RRS, a LIVE CHATROOM????
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I pretty much give up here. Luminon you continue to post things that are utterly absurd and downright paranoid. It seems you have no idea how science actually works. Do you wear a tinfoil helmet so the alien or CIA satellites can't control your mind? Are there any irrational ideas outside religion you don't support? So far you buy the absurd claims of homeopathy, past life regression and I believe psychics. I would recommend some of James Randi's books, checking out skepdic.com , Also this book I have read quite a few times (a good source for debunking pseudoscience for anyone) - Quantum Leaps in the Wrong Direction - where real science ends and pseudoscience begins
http://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Leaps-Wrong-Direction-Ends/dp/030907309X
This one - How to Think Straight About Psychology is great too - it was a textbook my senior year of college - it specifically addresses psychological pseudoscience but gives you good information on how to evaluate any claims.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Think-Straight-About-Psychology/dp/0321012461
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Son, it costs $1100 US to get a PHD from this noble institution...
The man is a fraud.
The idiot in question isn't a visionary, just a cheap snake oil salesman.
Electro magnetism is a real force. The bullshit methodology and 'vibrations' postulated by Emoto are not. You are comparing reality to a silly fantasy.
You son, are a paranoid.
What part of H2O don't you get? Two Hydrogens, one Oxygen...
There are NO chemicals dissolved in a homeopathic solution...that's the point. It's pure bullshit. And no son, the water doesn't carry 'memories' of long lost molecules, no does it respond to 'vibrations', it remains...water.
Because you are a gullible and naive individual, with poor skills in recognizing fraud?
However, your fraud, Emoto isn't TALKING about frozen water... he makes baseless, chemically and physically IMPOSIBLE claims about crystals in LIQUID water...
It's sad that you are so mired in this silly, logically and scientifically indefensible garbage.
LC >;-}>
Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.
All right, I'll give it up here too, just keep in mind, that there are people with very different life experience, who follows the same logics, but comes to different conclusions.
I just write, what very often happens to me, eventually to members of E.K., for mainly several last years and before. (E.K. is the citizen association for a personal development, residing in this house). I don't close my eyes, even if things I experience doesn't fit into the current scientific knowledge. That's not my problem, a science should reflect a reality, and when it doesn't, it's time for science to change. When you don't believe in non-material stuff, that's OK, you have your reasons. But I have to, I hold a proof in my hand, so it's not a question of belief anymore. You can write as many times you want, that this and this phenomenon had been completely refuted, but this doesn't erase it from my hand (it feels quite strange), or explain it in a range of current official knowledge.
I am vaguely aware of people wearing tinfoil helmets and afraid of CIA mind controlling satellites, but I have never seen or heard anything which could support it, so I don't consider it possible. Even woo-woo misguided people avoids more misguided people than them. Everything, what I'm sure about, must show to me or to people who I know and trust. Nothing more, nothing less. Blame the non-material world, that haunts my house, for incoherence with a current scientific knowledge, not me
Just don't ban me, I really liked the free podcasts, I consider buying a few of the first shows, and I need an online english communication (for a practice). A chat would be nice, but last time I was there, everyone was talking about food and ninjas.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
No, no, no. In homeopathy, the diluted substance does the opposite of what the agent does. So that would cure bleach poisoning/etc.? Also, the more diluted the agent, the stronger it it. So a "small" amount of bleach wouldn't do much homeopathy-wise because it would be too concertrated.
"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought
I just have a couple of questions and this is the best thread to stay with topic.
We, generally agree, that a placebo has effect and a homeopathics, can have basically a placebo-like effect too.
Does placebo have an effect on animals and small children? I suppose the effect is psychologic, so I guess it doesn't, when the psyche is lacking.
Does homeopathics have an effect on animals and small children? I have read that yes, I've read this remark somewhere and it sounds reasonably. Anyone here know a vet?
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I read somewhere that homeopathy is b.s., and it sounds reasonable. Anyone here know how to conduct a controlled, double-blind test?
There are no theists on operating tables.
I've been avoiding this thread because Luminon just frustrates the living crap out of me... but I can no longer resist:
Some years ago I worked for a while in a "holistic" pet supply store. Folks would bring their sick pets in to get homeopathy treatments. One of my duties was to deliver the "medicine" to the kennel for the "long-term" patients.
I started replacing the water in half of the vials with tap water on my way there, and started keeping track of success rates. I couldn't think of a way to set up a control group, so all I have is a "placebo" vs "homeopathy" comparison.
Incidences of death, continued illness resulting in a client removing the pet from our care, and recoveries were spot-on exactly the same. Quelle surprise.
Now, for the part where we discuss how pseudoscience is evil: People would bring in puppies that had parvo. Canine Parvovirus is a disease that affects a dog's digestive tract, slowing and sometimes preventing absorption of nutrients and can cause internal prolapse of intestines causing sepsis, it also can attack the heart if the puppy got it in-utero. The cardiac form is particularly lethal. It's treatable, survival depends on how quickly it's detected and how aggressively it can be treated. If not treated, it's a lingering death.
Every dog brought in with Parvo died. Every. Last. One.
I admit that performing this experiment on people's pets was unethical. Now that I'm more clear on my morals and ethics it's not something I would ever do again.
On the other hand, the pet supply store is still charging serious money to give water to sick animals, and allowing treatable diseases to kill people's pets.
I did wrong. They're doing far worse.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray