Christians are really atheists in the closet.
Offline I believe Christians don't really believe the bible is anything more than myth. Most are agnostic on whether any supernatural god exists.
If you hooked up Christians to lie detectors and you asked are you 100% sure god exists and the miracles of the bible is literally true, here is what I would expect: 99.9% would fail, the 0.1% that passes would be so delusional in other areas of their life they should be locked up in a mental hospital to avoid injury to themselves and others. Here is the evidence of why I believe this.
1. Most Christians believe because they were indoctrinated as children, the fear and desire for parental approval still has a hold on them as adults.
2. They are suckers for Pascal's wager. Even Rick Warren uses this argument as his reason for belief. It's not a real belief, just hedging your bet.
3. They don't discuss the wacky things they believe except in private with other "believers" or anonymously on the Internet.
4. They don't live lives as risk takers. If you were 100% sure you'd be in Paradise when you die, you'd be a daredevil and be careless about doing things that risk your life. Instead you see the little old lady driving slow to church, no daredevils, they are terrified of death instead of looking forward to it. They are not anxious to lay down their life for a friend.
5. They refuse to take challenges to their "faith" like a lie detector test or a scientific study to prove if their god really does answer any prayers. Instead they lie to themselves and others.
6. They don't understand what the bible really teaches. If you really believed a book was of a supernatural source, you would study it continually and understand every aspect of it. When you talk to most Christians they don't know much about what it say. In fact, the more you learn about the bible and it's sources they more likely you will disbelieve.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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I think most "moderate" (i.e. pussy) theists don't really believe their religion. They believe in belief, not in God himself... at least not exactly the same god they say they believe in.
What you're missing here is that belief and cognitive dissonance are really strange bedfellows. Consider kidnap victims who become attached to their kidnappers. Even after their release, they still believe the delusion, often for the rest of their lives. That's after a short brainwashing ordeal. Theists, on the other hand, have been brainwashed for their whole life.
Unfortunately, I think most of the fundies in pews genuinely do believe in their bizarre (and macabre) version of the universe. I think that you have to get up into the more educated, socially motivated moderate Christians before you find many people who are closet atheists.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Thank you for this hard hitting well thought out analysis on the Theist population which consists of approx 2/3 of the population based on your own thoughts.
I'll keep this in mind and look forward for more that will no doubt shake what we thought of Theists to it's very core and make us never look back.
I am curious to know what other freethinkers would guess the results would be if we could hook up "believers" to lie detectors. Would it be about 1 in 1000 as I see. More or less? Why? What would it be for pastors?
Anyway we could get "Christians" to volunteer for such an experiment? I was thinking someone should do like the game show Exposed on MTV. Get the voice analysis software to analyze so-called "believers" when they answer questions about their faith. This would make for great entertainment on RRTV.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I think it would be absolutely wonderful to get say, 25 each of fundies, moderates protestants, catholics, and say, mormons, and give them tests with the newer polygraphs that actually record brain activity, in an MRI.
I know I've already weighed in, but here's a more specific response to what I think the percentages would be:
Fundamentalists/evangelicals:
85% believe in the god of the bible, as preached
10% believe in a different version of god, but stay for family, etc.
5% are closet atheists (I bet this includes a LOT of the preachers, actually.)
Moderates (mainstream protestants)
60% believe in the god of the bible, as preached
25% believe in a fuzzy, undefined god, but stay in Christianity for family, etc.
10% believe that belief in god is good, but don't know if god is real
5% closet atheists
Anyway, that's just my guess. I'd love to see the lie detector results.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I see it more of a case of they never brought themself to question. If they do start questioning it's more that they don't have the answers, and seeking out the answers is something that would bore them so they just keep going with what they know whether it's right or wrong.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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How true. They deliberately keep themselves ignorant of many things of the bible because then they'd have to question the truth of events recorded in this book.
It is hilarious to watch Christopher Hitchens debate "believers" then he has to remind them of what their bible really says. I don't see how the percentages of true "believers" could be very high when you only only have a very small percentage of church attenders that understand much about what the bible records.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
As someone with a great interest in science, I request that you first show that lie detectors actually work as claimed.
-Triften
If a large majority of Christians were closet atheists, I'd think that most of them would be so deep in the closet that they don't even know they are in the closet.
I'd think that a significant amount of Christians would have a rather high confidence in their beliefs, but not high enough that they would be willing to risk a lot on it.
I'd also think that a significant amount never really think about their beliefs. I know that I was a member of these last two groups...
"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought
This reminds me of a quote. I don't remember who said it, or what his exact words were, but it was pretty much this:
If anyone can clear up for me the exact words, and the name of the guy who said it, that'd be great.
Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.
Thus my name daretoknow. One of the hardest things in my life was my conversion. I look back and laugh now, but it was not funny while it was happening. I find that the more I understand the more responsibilty I feel. The truth can be a bitch, but I say dare to know
Thats cute.
The newest technology I know if is called FMRI, which actually scans the brain as the questions are being asked. This has been tested quite a bit and has an accuracy of 90% (disputed accuracy from 70-99%), even while people attempt to beat it.
To get better than 90%, you might have to define what a lie is. If someone says something that is red is blue, and they really think it is blue, is that lying? If someone has schizophrenia and states something you know is false, is that a lie? In these cases should the lie detector report that as a truth or lie?.. You might think they are truths in that person's mind, but what if the lie detector said it was a lie, accurately reporting it, perhaps detecting the activity in the schizophrenic part of their brain (whatever that is) and compensating.
Any more than 90% accuracy would be very hard to define with our current understanding of the human brain. Besides, with 90% accuracy, in the application we want it for, a few more tests would make up the difference for statistical reasons.
Yep. The new lie detectors are next to impossible to "beat." They can give nebulous readings, but in virtually all cases, the vagueness is not from uncertainty about a lie, but from a peculiarity about the particular question/answer/subject combination.
Basically, when you lie, and you know you're lying, you can't help which part of your brain lights up.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
What most people don't know is that we are still guessing about what part of the brain reacting and how it reacts means what about emotion and quilt. We are still questioning and the more we test the more the evidence points to that brains vary more then we first expected. But i quess that if they did pre-testing to get a sort of base line for each individual first it could be worth trying.
If God doesn't do things the way you think they should be done maybe you should entertain the idea that it's you who doesn't understand.
I don't think these six points strongly support your assertion, but I think Hamby has it right - you can easily tack on another 5% to whatever percentage a legitimate poll finds to be the total number of atheists as a percentage of the population.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
Wow how is it that I have encountered contradictions to every single one of your points (see below). I think you should meet a true christian...There are very few. The definition is a follower of christ. Not all people who SAY they are christians are really following christ. The bible clearly teaches that it is a relationship with god, not a religion that saves you. Going to church and just saying you are christian does not make you a christian. You have to believe that Jesus died for your sins, rose from the grave, and that your sins are forgiven because of what he has done for you and be born again. If you truly accept that then it will show by you laying your life down and living for him. Many people say they believe in God, but they do not follow him. Why? Because they have not trusted their lives to God and been "born again." By the way I have heard of lie detector tests taken on atheists who said they did not believe in God and they failed it! It is innate in us to know God is there. You cannot tell me you have not once in your life thought about it or been shaken by the fact that you may be turning away from the truth. Even I have questioned my faith...but the more I read the bible and felt his hand in my lilfe, the more I have become convinced there is only one true living God.
1. I know many true chrisians who were not raised in a home where the doctrine of christ was taught. If anything, their childhood kept them from Christ. They encountered God late in life. In fact many have been rejected from their families because of their faith. In some areas of the world people are even killed by their families for their new faith in Jesus Christ! Many are persecuted!
2. And hedging your bet? The true christians I know live their lives completely different from other people. They give their lives to serve others and bring people to God's kingdom. It's not like you just pretend to be nice and poof you're christian. When someone gets truly saved, they are changed from the inside and then things start to show on the ouside. You find a passion to be fed God's word (the bible). You pray and serve others. You grow and are not doinated by sin like you once were...but you can overcome it through God's strength.
3. The whole point of some of our missions trips is to go out and preach the gospel to complete strangers!! What good is it to only talk to believers about Christ. We have to look for oppourtunities to share to those who are willing to listen. Many people have given their lives to Christ because of it.
4. Risk takers? I don't know what "christians" you talk to, but I have known some that love the thrill of doing daring things! Just because you see an old lady driving slow to church doesn't mean christians are scaredy cats. Has it occured to you that maybe that old lady is conscious and away of wanting to keep other people alive? Or maybe she doesn't want to wreck her nice car so she doesn't drive wreckless!
5.Heck plug me to a lie detector test right now and I can find at least 20-50 more believers who will gladly to it as well!
6. A true christian will read their bible and want to learn about God. If there is a condradition, they will search it out. If I am beleiving and following something falst i want to know! So I will read it all the way! You should go to a bible teaching church that does bible studies. All they do it teach from the bible so I don't know how you can say true christians don't read it. There are those people who are NOT true christians and they don't read the bible. Its sad that they lead other people astray...they make you have false beliefs on what following Christ is all about.
God is love and he loves you...deny him before men and he will deny you in front of the angels in heaven...He wants to know you and have a relationship with you. He died for your sins. Yes this is what I know is truth. And truth is not subjective. He either exists or doesn't. I sincerely hope you reevaluate how your heart is...
Unfortunately your main point here is true. The original assertion was that the vast majority are "born into" the delusion and then subscribe to it. But your point, that people for whatever reason, voluntarily subscribe to it later in life is also true. Some religions (and christianity in particular) produce sects which are quite adept at identifying people vulnerable to recruitment. Your assertion that they are persecuted and killed is one which is exaggerated and in any case irrelevant to the main point. Those killing and persecuting are almost without doubt simply subscribers to some other variant of the same delusion, and no doubt have their share of "converts" too.
You describe beautifully a form of paranoia well known to psychology, but even then you depart from logic in doing so. The notion of "serving others", for example, is a subjective one. Anyone who tries to "serve" me by attempting to "bring me to god's kingdom" (what a stupid concept) is not serving me at all - quite the opposite in fact. And if and when I commit myself to serving others I do it without any such agenda. I contend therefore that I - and others like me - are infinitely superior to you. You do "good deeds" in the hope your paranoia and delusion are fed by the experience and that others become equally ill. I try to make people better.
I should let that one go without comment - it just about sums up how sick you are. But I would simply like to point out that philosophical discourse, and not preaching, provides traditionally a surer avenue to enlightenment for all concerned. If you must expose your illness verbally to those who have not been infected, at least be prepared to learn from them too. After all, they are well. They must be doing something right.
I think the original contention was an attempt to say that not all christians by any means display, or even possess the courage of their alleged convictions. I would go further and say that it is irrelevant whether they do or they don't. When a conviction is founded on false premise it engenders little of value except coincidentally. Ascribing courage, or for that matter good driving sense, to a belief in a mythical being is about as relevant to reality as ascribing zits to the tooth fairy.
This was an even worse assertion by EXC. Lie detectors are useless when applied to pathological liars. You get my drift. However again I believe the true assertion here was the christian's inability to have the truth of his assertions tested empirically. This is very true - not necessarily because the christian would not dearly love to have his fallicies affirmed as fact, but because hogwash always resists such treatment.
The assertion that the majority of christians are not familiar with the contents of the bible is true, in my experience. What I also have noted - and this is much more important - is that dissemination of its contents is a function carefully controlled by christianity's propagators, resulting in people who can indeed quote chapter and verse but who have absorbed only a fraction of available inference, and then only that which they have been advised they should. This intentionally stunted intellectual exercise produces "true christians" according to you.
I am inclined to agree with that one, at least!
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Well, you get points for an interesting idea. The thing is that I suspect that a couple of your definitions are on the soft side, enough so that it would make the test that you propose hard to interpret.
First, what is a Christian? As Hamby points out, there is a whole range of people who use the single label. I would not expect each group to test equally. For example, I would expect that a fundie who lives for the OT in all of it's...well whatever is going to test out very differently from a liberal theologian – given an identical set of questions.
Second, what is a lie? Sure, the FMRI type test is pretty hard to “beat”. But I don't think we are testing to see if it can be beat so much as testing to see what really makes a given part of the brain light up for different people. Again, different groups are probably going to respond differently.
Of course that much is obvious. However, they are also victims of implanted neural programming (yes, I am aware that that is really inexact but follow me here). Are you testing to see what programs have been implanted?
Sure, Pascal's wager is an inappropriate application of game theory to religion. You and I know that they are basically trying to beat god at his own game. To that extent, what they are doing is really a lie but once again, there is the pesky neural programming that could potentially muddy the results.
This one I would like to work further on as it happened to me. As a kid, I almost never went to church. I have vague memories of being let out of the nursery to go to the big people's church a few times before my father pulled us out of church. But quite early on, religion ceased to have any force for me and it was only rarely brought up when I was a kid.
As an adult, I was involved with a couple of christian churches and one of them was pretty close to what you describe there. They had an outer church that was the “nice” aspect but was pretty much set up to help soften your mind so that they could get you into the hard core stuff that came later. Once they thought that they had you mentally pliable enough, you would be invited on a weekend retreat where the hard core stuff began.
It was not until then that I was introduced to YEC nonsense. However, I had been to a regular public school through my childhood and I had at least a working knowledge of biology and physics. Anyway, here I am pretty much ready to take what gets shoved on me and they shove shit on me. At that point, I could only think along the line of “if I have to believe this shit, then so be it”.
I have no idea what an FMRI based lie detector would have found from me at that point. Sure, on one level, I knew that it was a crock of shit but on another level, I was imprinted with the bad programming. Thinking back on that time, it was a bit like being on bad acid that you simply do not come down from the next day.
Well, that would be your interpretation but it seems to me to be over broad. I have known christians who were into sky diving and scuba diving. I never did that with them but I have been present for downhill mountain biking where an invocation was made. So some of them are at least some of the time.
Well, at least some of them have written themselves an automatic excuse. Ask a Roman Catholic if a consecrated communion wafer will bleed when you break it in half. According to the ones that I have met, the “miracle of transubstantiation” is a literal fact – unless you try to test it. When you put the lord to the test, he automagically undoes what was done in the first place so that there can never be any proof.
OK, that carries the supposition that they are even allowed to read the bible. Another version of christianity that I was involved with actually forbade it's members to read the bible. After all, it is a terribly confusing book for those who are not properly trained to read it and understand what it means.
So just who is so trained? Why Pastor is of course and he will tell you what you need to know when you need to know it. In fact, in the run-up to my baptism (my second one BTW, the group doctrine being that it only counts if you get dunked after joining the group), I had had my hair down a bit past my shoulders and a full beard. Well, that is clearly unacceptable. Everyone knows that good christian men have short, neatly trimmed hair and are clean shaved. Also, they wear white shirts with black slacks and narrow black ties.
When I learned of this, I had to ask why it was acceptable for god jr. to look more or less like I did but not for me. Well, first off, I had to understand that those images are only paintings and did not reflect what he really looked like (I suppose that the real god jr. conformed to the baptist ideal despite the fact that he would have looked way out of place for ancient Rome). When that obviously did not convince me, out came the bible and pastor flipped through it to a specific passage that read something like “and the men cut their hair”. I would have liked to read the whole chapter so that I knew what was really going on but the book was slammed shut after I saw that one sentence.
Yes, indeed, the bible has men's grooming tips for modern christians in it but only because pastor is specially trained to be allowed to know what is actually there.
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If this person ever returns to this thread, it's:
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” (Stephen F. Roberts)
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Sounds like Sam Harris is preparing to do something like this, brain scans to detect how or if you really believe.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1694723,00.html?cnn=yes
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen