Incredible, what some research can do.
Offline This is my realization post. I have come to realize that my previous posts have been incorrectly motivated and incorrectly directed in this forum. I came to realize this today, while I was at Borders bookstore this afternoon. I wanted to look up a particular book concerning mathematics and science by Lecomte Du Nouy (spelling?) called Human Destiny. Unfortunately, Borders did not have the book I was looking for. I was disappointed, but I did not leave the bookstore and decided to browse around. My browsing led me to the God Delusion.
I read the first four chapters of Mr. Dawkins book. During those four chapters I came to realize that my conceptions of atheism were wrong. I have been trying to argue here and other places the points that Mr. Dawkins already acknowledges and accepts. I have been essentially misunderstanding what atheism means.
All of the philosophical problems I wanted to point out and argue for, Mr. Dawkins has already pointed them out, and conceded them. The bottom line is, atheism as Mr. Dawkins outlines it is not a target for any of the philosophical problems that I came to confront it with.
I see now the only choice that I am left with is to investigate evolution and the scientific evidence to explain our existence. Also, a key clarification Mr. Dawkins pointed out, what he doesn't see evolution as chance. I will admit, that I conflated evolution and chance. I feel ignorant and duped by some unknown reason which brought about such an incorrect association in my mind between evolution and chance.
So, R.R.S. as I depart on my journey to investigate and learn about the theory which Mr. Dawkins so heavily endorses, I would like to wish you all a very prosperous future in your political endeavors. I very much agree that religion can be damaging when misused and misguided. I would also like to wish you all a very big thank you, for well, driving me to search out the source of my misunderstanding. Sure is incredible what some researching can do.
To all those who read patiently as I ranted,
To all those who replied sympathetically as I argued,
A very big expression of thanks and admiration,
Sincerely,
Jread.
The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller
Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat
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Good luck then. It takes some cojones to admit when you're wrong, so you're already ahead.
Kudos to you then jread. I think I speak for many at RRS when I say: all we ask is that you apply reason and objectivity to the debate (whatever it may be). And so you have.
I find it far more productive in the long run to admit I was mistaken than to try and backfill a failed argument. I've failed in my own many times and will no doubt continue to stumble. This is how we educate ourselves. Your intellect is healthy.
I'm glad that you've come to realize this. I wish more people would understand what they were arguing against in the first place. Props man.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You're not the only person to ever feel that way. Please believe me when I tell you that the mistake was not a chance occurance! (And there's plenty of evidence for that assertion.)
You might really enjoy Carl Sagan's book, "The Varieties of Scientific Experience," as a follow-up to Dawkins. Dawkins is the wake-up call, Sagan is the morning jog. Follow that with a little Sam Harris ("Letter to a Christian Nation" is fine, you can read it in less than 3 hours-- but "End of Faith" is better) and you will understand why atheists in this country and elsewhere throughout the world are up in arms about religion. He sounds the battle cry loud and clear. Aristotle may have supported an Unmovable Mover, but Socrates was killed by a very closely related branch of anthropomorphized mysticism. The two different approaches to faith, extremist and moderate, are kissing cousins-- acceptance of the justifications for one is necessarily supporting the other.
*pat on the back*
It's cool. We all have things that at one time or another we were mistaken about that tooks something akin to a mental backhand to help us understand. I wish you luck in everything you're seeking knowledge on and hope you find answers, even if they aren't the one's you're looking for.
The Regular Expressions of Humanistic Jones: Where one software Engineer will show the world that God is nothing more than an undefined pointer.
I hope you find what you're looking for, and I commend you for being able to admit that you made a mistake.
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
I hope you come back after you've done your research, jread.
We will miss you while you're gone!
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This post is a fantastic example of what our ultimate goal really is here. Thanks for posting it--I know myself how hard it is to admit that publicly. (I had my moment online as well at a different board and actually just looked it up the other day and am happy that it was still available after a few years.) If you want to talk about your experience, we'd love to have you on the show sometime.
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Talking is good. Going on show to talk, good as well. Send me an email about what you were thinking specifically in regards to a possible show appearance. Thanks for replying by the way, I felt it a great honor to recieve a reply from one of the "faces" of the R.R.S. I enjoyed the Nightline massacre, I mean debate, with the WOTM. I wonder if I'm the only theist who thinks that a name like Way of the Master is wierd and semi-cultish sounding?
The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller
Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat
I know what you mean.
I had no idea what evolution meant until I read Dawkin's Selfish Gene . It's such a simple idea really, but at the same time so difficult to understand without getting a proper explaination.
Good job man! Keep up the good work and question everything!
Stories like this keep my morale up when I debate theists, it IS possible to reach people.