There are indeed some interesting ideas within the Hindu philosophical tradition.  The problem I had with it when I studied Hindu philsophy as part of my degree course was all the God nonsense and the various unsupported claims and assumptions. In other words the religious crap associated with some otherwise fascinating philosophical insights that where ahead of the west in many ways.

Please expand upon the area you wish to discuss. 

Well I can't speak for everyone but I do not belive that God exists. My view on the people that belive that God does exist is simply that they are wrong. 

No thats not it at all I'm afraid. My personal opinion is that it is the theists that have delusions of grandure and who have the big ego problems. There is nothing more egotistical in my opinion than thinking that there is a God who created the universe and who cares about you. Personal Gods are the ultimate vainity created by man to flatter their own egos.

Now with the Hindu traditions this form of vain, egotistical thinking is not quite a bad but it is still very much there. To even supose that we can have worked out the answers, that we can merge and become one with the ultimnate reality is really a very very foolish and vain thought. 

Most atheists I know will readily admit that they do not have all the answers and that humanity itself does not have the answers. This to me is a rather sensible and unvain atitude.

The begining of wisdom is realising that you know very little.

The end of wisdom is when you make up the answers.

No irrational is just a set of beliefs that can't be justified. Its another word for stupidity really.

Why? 

Thesim and irrationality causes very real problems in our society. It needs to be eliminated. There is nothing good about irrational thought. As I said before irrationality is really just a form of stupidity. 

So what?  

Yes I've had this discusion with many from the Hare Krishna cult.  Its along the lines of "oh well you can't understand. You will understand once you meditate and devote yourself to the Hindu gods" in other words you will believe when you believe. This kind of circular reasoning really does not cut it I'm arfaid. 

What you need to do is to demonstrate to me why the Hindu concept of Brahman is correct. Also what do you take the ultimate reality to be? Why do you think it involves conciousness? Why do you think it needs to be worshiped? Why should we bother to do so? Is this reality aware of our actions and if so how?

I'm perfectly ready to discuss and indeed entertain the possability of an underlying structure to reality that is neither physical or mental in nature. I consider my metaphsycial position to be one of neutral monism and this is indeed in line with some Hindu philosophy but what I find absurd is all the "add ons" that are atributed to this inderlying structure, the conciousness, the entities, the karma and all that bollocks. All of the add ons are just baseless claims which deserve no more respect than the Chrsitain claims about their God creating everything 6000 years ago (about 1000 years after the oldest Vedas where written!).

Quote - No irrational is just a set of beliefs that can't be justified. Its another word for stupidity really.

Firstly why do you say that the irrational is stupidity. It indicates that what is not proven is not acceptable to you and other atheists. You wish Science to prove everything. Are you then indicating that Science has proven everything that was to prove. Obviously not. What is irrational today , a thought say might be proven by Science tomorrow or by other means. So what happens to that stupidity which gets proven. You will look pompous when it gets proven !!!! though it was irrational. So lets not assume an a Priori statement that what is irrational is stupid. Not to say all irrationality will be proven . No that is not going to happen. So the wise one is one who discriminates between the set of irrational beliefs.

Quote -  Thesim and irrationality causes very real problems in our society

Not so in Hinduism, am not sure with Islam and Christianity which seem to be on loggerheads though and this has caused great problems like 9/11 and Iraq War. 

 Regarding the discussion with the Hare Krishna Cult . It cant be proven by me or anyone  to you, since it is a personal experience issue. If you try sincerely, you  will get it. Also it doesnt say as you indicate that the Self has to be worshipped. Also it is not be believed (as you say ___ you will believe when you believe) , but to be felt intuitively first and then only believed. By 'felt', I dont mean a vague and far off dream like realization, but a complete and composite experience (in full consciousness that you are alive and well) which can be exhilirating to someone who gets it first time. The nature of things and the ultimate reality are apprehended in one shot , in a micromicro second which totally changes the conventions others have , rather turns it upside down. 

 quote - why do you think it involves the consciousness

To know and to percieve (we are talking epistemology here) , you require a knower  a subject and the known ie the object . We consider our body to be the knower. It cannot be , since you have a brain/mind inside the body which receives the information and processes it. Lets say you see a table in front of you. Science will tell you that the eyes receive the reflected rays from the table. So do the eyes know that it is table. No Obviously. The information gets passed onto the brain and processed. An image is formed in the brain/mind. Does this confirm to you the thing as table ? Does your hand or leg know it as table ? Just as your hand or leg doesnt know it as table , so also your brain/mind doesnt know it as table. However unlike the hand/leg , the brain/mind  plays an intermediary role  in the knowdledge of a table being in front of you. It only assists by processing the information. What confirms the reality of this perception is the consciousness which is lording above. At the very basic level, we are aware of our existence not because our brain senses that the heart is beating and blood is flowing. We are also not aware of our existence because of electrochemical nerve movements/events though these only assist in the process.  Your conscious is revealing to you constantly that you are alive. it is happening every micromicro second.  Try closing your eyes and think only about your awareness  or that continuity of your life in that time period. Then think who is telling you that you are alive. If the brain/mind is the ultimate arbiter , it will not even think "Am I alive at this moment ?" What tells you are alive is your consciousness only . Now neuroscientists may try to map this out , but if the brain or its product mind is thinking "Am I alive" will the same entity answer the question affirmatively. It is a contradiction.   The answer is given by the Self or the conscious which therefore is above the mind.  This consciousness is the all pervading Self and is the Absolute . Viewed at a cosmic level, this is the Brahman. it pervades everywhere  and is timeless.

Materialism says that matter only exists. But matter cannot perceive knowledge of another matter. At a higher level, there is a supramatter or Being which perceives and pervades. One may call it God or by any name. But that is the Truth.

Now the last part of your question deals with tha "add ons" . Yes very difficult to justify. But a very vast and diverse set of people who have realized the truth at various different times have also perceived the pantheon of Gods in Hinduism (may read ridiculous to anyone , but is proven because diverse set of people including non believers who meditated for the heck of it to disprove the belief also saw them). The same holds true for the theory of Karma.

Venkat Rajan

Because it is. Pick any field outside of religion, and decide if you'd apply irrationality to it.

Do you find islam or christianity acceptable?

You prove to me that there's a six-armed elephant who showers gold on those who burn incense to him, and I'll stop thinking that it's stupid. Prove to me that the Ganges is a divinity rather than a festering cesspool, and I'll stop thinking it's stupid that people use it for ritual bathing.

Let's neither assume a priori that any irrational statement is true. That would be ... stupid.

Very well. Therefore let's limit ourselves to what does get proven.

And what criteria do you use for discriminating between the set of irrational beliefs, O Wise One?

Not so in hinduism indeed. As Kashmir attests, hinduism and islam have been perfectly harmonious for centuries. (Should the skeptics need further convincing, look also at hindu-sikh relations; no problems there either...just ask Indira Gandhi)

Why not? Why can consciousness not be a physical phenomenon? You would have to demonstrate the existence of consciousness separate from a brain to argue otherwise.

Tell god or whatever its name is to find its way into a science lab so it can be proven. Then we can start calling it the Truth.

Hi I  guess we are talking to each other on two different threads, In fact some of the questions and comments I have addressed in a reply just sometime ago on the  other thread on body-mind problem.

I will address some of the rsidual addresses here later.