The Nature of Sin
Offline Hi, I am new to the site. Long time reader, first time poster I guess. Maybe since it's my first post, I should tell a little about myself. I am in my late 30s living in California currently. I grew up on a small farm in the Midwest (BABBLE BELT) if you will. My parents were not thiests in any stretch of the imagination, but my mom drug us of to church most Sundays. I never really felt any connection to religion as a child growing up, but I met my future wife at 18 and things changed kind of quick. Her father is a Southern Baptist preacher so it was akward a non-believer dating their daughter. Needless to say I got "saved" and would roll with the holiest of them. I gave up my secular life entirely, lost most of the best friends I had ever had then and didn't look back. Later on before getting married, less than 2 years after I got saved, I ran into some problems and just completely lost my faith. I stopped attending church and seeing my religious friends then too. However, I did try to get my faith back when I had moved to the town my In-Laws were currently living. We attended church where my father-in law pastored, but it was never the same for me. At the time I was "saved" I thought I felt a change in me, but looking back on it I have to wonder if there isn't some psychological reasoning behind it and not some supernatural one. As a recovering christian with a fundy preacher for a father in law, I think I have a unique take on the world around me. I look forward to posting in the forums.
Anyways, I wonder if anyone can tell me what the nature of sin is. It is probably the single most used word in the bible, yet no one I talk to about religion (father in law included) has been able to answer the nature of sin. In the bible sin's nature is often used as a verb and a noun. I mean, if sin is not doing god's (Verb) will then how can adam and eve pass this on to previous generations (Noun). Wouldn't this make sin something tangible as opposed to a meer act? Therefore, if sin is something in our nature why would a "loving", "merciful" god create hell to torture people who are just acting according to their nature? I know of no reason to believe that sin is something passed from one person to another from birth. If this is true, then there can be no "age of accountabilty". Some thiest friends of mine tell me that as a child sin is automatically forgiven because of innocence and heaven awaits them if they die before this age. If sin is passed generation to generation then how is there an age of accountability? In the same conversation with this friend of mine, he stated that native-americans before the spaniards arrived would go to heaven because they had never heard of jesus. His only reasoning for this was that it wouldn't be fair. At this point I told him nothing about the god he worships is fair or mercifull. Their actions, prior to any knowledge of a god, would still be sinfull in nature but they could be forgiven because of ignorance? Anyways I don't want to wander too far off topic.
My point is that sin, like most concepts in the bible, is something that no one can agree on. If the bible is the infallible word of god, oh boy was IT (not he) stupid to give it too so many fallible beings. Man wrote the bible and man still can't agree on what it says. I was asked one time why I don't believe, my only response was that if god exists and IT wanted me to know for sure then all the people claiming to speak for IT would run around telling and believing the same things. Anyways, that is my rant. Peace.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
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Welcome to the boards!
Like many theist concepts, sin is a circular concept, with no actual meaning. Though they list many activities as sins, the category is without definition.
Most theists will say that sin is anything that is contrary to the will of god. This is kind of nutty, because god is omnipotent. Therefore, anything that happens is a result of him making it happen. Therefore, nothing is against his will.
Some will say that sin is anything that denigrates or otherwise hurts our soul, but soul is also undefined, so that's kind of meaningless.
In short, every theist has a concept of "sin," but what they're really doing is stealing the concept from naturalism. Good and bad are necessarily related to cause and effect, and are necessarily relative because at least two people are necessary for an action to be moral or immoral. Therefore, there are at least two points of view, which may not coincide.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Welcome to the boards!
btw it's ei not ie
Questioning the bible is a sin, so it is a sin to ask what a sin is past what the bible explains.
Judging by your rational thought process, it seems you are more of an atheist questioning atheism (which is a good thing) than a christian questioning christianity (which is a sin).
Hamby pretty much explained away the idea of "sin" as the bible describes. I just want to add the same is true with god, creation, revelation, etc. It is all so vaguely defined that it can be remolded through time to fit into the society that interprets it. I see that as some amazing work by the authors, although there are many other parts that can only be accepted by claiming it to be metaphorical only. I just don't understand how the unrealistic stories of this "Jesus" guy are still believed without making him a metaphor also.
If this was true, wouldn't it make more sense to keep the story of jesus a secret, that way everyone goes to heaven? I would consider it cruel to tell someone about jesus.
The only thing i ever got about sin was that it was a transgression against god, and since god doesn't exist, sin doesn't exist, at least that's my logic, but what do I know, i am a lonely atheist.
Welcome to the forums sir.
I always was taught that sin was breaking gods law in thought or deed.
The Nature of Sin ? Girls of course.
Is this sin ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJLZoz_uhC0
The hurt ? That would be ? BAD GIRLS ?
Girls are bad ? "Cheating Girl Dildo Punished"
"so funny --- so funny ...
", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhIKezb53c
GIRLS SO BAD ? ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JrU12uo8Lg&feature=related
Eat me out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T265AVpp_2M&NR=1
SEE, proof positive that the old Jews were right; that Girls are the reason for all our problems. Naughty Eve was a trouble maker ..... poor Adam.
Atheism Books.
This refutation is a little more involved, but not much. (Thanks, by the way, Zombie... I didn't think of this one earlier.)
God's law is one of two things:
1) Based on logical cause/effect relationships between actions and consequences
2) Not based on logical cause/effect.
If (1), then god is unnecessary to understand good and evil, for we can see cause and effect for ourselves, and judge the results, which makes sin synonymous with relative value judgment. If (2), then we should not be able to make sense of any of the moral commands, for they are arbitrary, and ought to resemble nonsense instructions. The fact is, we do see patterns in the descriptions of sin in the bible, though sometimes we need to understand more historical context, since knowledge and cultural norms have changed substantially.
If one objects that god made the cause/effect relationships between good and bad, then he is simply assigning an ad hoc explanation to the existence of time and interrelation of things, and is committing a horrible logical mistake.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
so if questioning is a sin, would that in turn make knowledge a sin? to me it just seems that the more you learn the easier it is to say theres no god.
If ignorance is bliss, then knock the smile off my face
Well, the action that triggered "original sin" was eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Well human beings are animals born with no real concept of being civil. Various influences teach them acceptable ways to behave, parents, friends, the law,tv (religion) etc.
We probably do have genetic traits for helping others but not for surviving in the modern world.
I think we are 'animals functioning initially purely on instinct' is probably scientifically the closet to 'sin'
firstly, im not hear saying im right your wrong. I'm a Christian and i figured i should let you know what the Bible says about sin... once again Im not trying to tell you all that I'm right and your wrong, just telling you what it says.
Anyway, its not a sin to question the Bible and in fact God tells us to question it. He wants us to gain knowledge and study and learn everything we can. in fact the Bible says people who don't seek the truth are fools. contrary to popular opinion God doesn't want a bunch of mindless followers who follow the Bible on pure faith, faith is involved to a degree, but God gaves us brains for a reason.
As to the nature of sin. sin is an action. anything we do that is against what God tells us to do is a sin. However sin is more than that. We are born sinful. we are born with a desire to sin, its in our nature. humans are not basically good. thanks to adam and eve, we all are plagued by sin.
Why does God allow sin? God's purpose in creating us was to bring glory to Him. if God just didn't allow sin, which he could have, and every person every was sinless. thats not that glorifying. God allowd sin so that he could show us his grace and save those who wanted salvation. since no where near everyone wants to follow God, the people who do are more able to glorify him since their are defying sin. does that make sense? its not that God couldn't have stopped sin or that he doesn't have power over it, it was his plan to allow it just so that he could show his power over it.
- Jordan -
Thanks for taking the time to answer this question. I have read a post of your's and will attempt to do the same for your thesis. It is always good to have a theist take on certain issues. It still wasn't much help answering the question because it doesn't answer how sin is passed from one generation to another. Sin can either be an action (verb) or a noun (some natural or super-natural thing). The way the bible and christians use it it would seem that it is both. I don't believe there are any other words in the English language that have a similiar conundrum. The use of the word makes no sense if you try to substitute a similiar word like a fish. If I were to go out and fish (sin), this would be an action. It would also be a lousy sentence, but that's beside the point. However, a fish (sin) is also a natural object. How can the desire to fish (sin) be something innate in human nature? Fishing (sinning) is relaxing for some and a necessity for others but requires no predispisition from our ancestors. This isn't a perfect analogy and I apologize for it, but it is the best example I could come up with in the time I had.
Am I safe to assume that it is something meta-physical like kharma? Things like kharma are an easy concept on the surface but once you try to understand what it really is it can become rather convoluted.
I was a christian at one point. I have read the bible and still pick it up from time to time to research. I don't recall a specific verse that says we should question the bible. I only remember verses that claim otherwise such as, "Blessed are they that have not seen and still believe." I can't remember the verse, but that is the jist. Another verse states that only a fool cannot believe in god. To me these verses seem more akin to not question, just believe. I do however, remember the buddha was to have said, "question everything you hear even if I have said it." I just am not so sure that the bible says something similiar.
You say god wants us to worship him on faith so it will not show man proof of its' existense. The problem I see is that the god of the bible would rather use cohersion instead. Love me or burn in hell forever and ever. A christian friend of mine told me once that some people will get a free ride to heaven. People that had never heard of jesus, like native americans before the spaniards, never heard the gospel automatically go to heaven. His excuse was that it wouldn't be fair for them to go to hell if they never knew. When I told him his god wasn't fair and does some fucked up shit he was kind of offended I could think that. I however, was raised to believe that everyone was going to hell unless they accepted jesus. He could not cite any scripture to support his claim of course.
I don't think people choose to be an atheist. When I was in my deconversion, like a lot of people I fought to hold onto my beliefs. Twenty years later I do not regret my decision. If I were standing before god tomorrow I wouldn't either. I'd just spit in its face and go straight to hell, do not collect $200.00. I don't fear the afterlife because there is no reason to believe there is one. All religions are just ancient mans' explanation to the world around them. I have just as many reasons to reject jainism so nothing personal.
One of the reasons I reject the bible god, the quran god and any other mono-theistic god is that they often sound too much like human beings. If god created us to bring it glory then it created us for a selfish reason. This is the same reason I reject the laws of kharma. If I only did something nice because I want something in return then I did so for a selfish reason. I don't give to charity or help others because I want anything in return. The golden rule or reciprocity, that religion teaches has blinded us to just do good for the sake of doing good. This is where atheism holds the moral ground above religion. We do good because it is the right thing to do, not because we can have a bigger mansion in heaven or more virgins, or whatever. If anyone gives 10 percent of their income away in hopes to get back 20 percent then the whole concept of giving means nothing.
If a god does indeed exist it would be outside of any understanding we could possibly have of it. Would god be jealous, empathetic or fair? If god created man in its' own image then man returned the favor.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
sorry about that, i hope i can do better this time. sin isn't an easy one to describe. it brings up so many other questions. it might me easier to think of it this way. if you ever read a verse that has sin as a verb, switch it to transgressed. a transgression (or sin) is anytihng against God's word. there is also the noun for of sin. sin entered the world along with the first transgression. it is inate in every person. dont think of it as your parents sins passing on to you becasue unlike in the old testament, we do not pay for our fathers sins. think of it as this. ( i laugh to myslef as i begin to bring this up considering many Christinas don;t like wha tim about to say.) i don't belive in free will per se. i belive we make choices but i belive they are not free. PAul does a much better job explaining it in romans but we are all slaves either to sin or to righteousness. so before were saved we are slaves to sin, not to transgressions but to sin, noun form. we make choices but every choice we make is maed bsaed on our sinful nature. once saved our choices become salves to righteousness. so the noun form of sin is like a force. it guides our actions and choices and is impossible to defeat without God. does that help at all?
I really liked your last statement though. most people truly have made God in their image. wow. thats so good. anyway, im a very strict, conservative, fundamental Chrsitian. I think that atheism does seem more rational than the form of christinaity that has become popular. no wonder so many people "lose" their faith.
no the Bible does say the same thing as budha. it says the Bible is God's word and that we are to trust it. but at the same time we should gain knowledge. so no God doesn't say "question me" he also doesn't say its a sin to doubt him.
as for the cohersion. i hear thast alot to. people saying guide tries to win us over by scaring us. this is the best i can describe it. God created us for his glory (ill get to the selfish part) He knew in his omniscience that he would be better glorified if he allowed sin into the world. now God is loving. God does not want to send us to hell. However he is also perfect and just. he is soperfect, sin can be no wear near him and since we are all sinners we must go to hell. the punishment for a single sin is hell. God is just and he must punish ssin no matter how much he loves us. But, that love caused him to offer a way out. the sin was punished, its just that jesus took our punishmnent for us. so that all we have to do to be blameless in his sight is accept the gift Jesus gave us. does that make sense. God doesn't send us to hell, we send ourselves there. he doesn't want to send us there put he must. if he made an exception, he wouldn't be so perfect. your friend who claimed that people who have never heard go to heaven becasue God is fair, is very wrong. its interesting that we should be able to tell our creator hes not fair. The Bible is very clear that jesus is the only way. all the other religions arn't just different names for the same God they are false.
Now to the part about God seeming to much like a human. i agree that most gods do seem to human which is why i find it so interestingthat you think God is too. i admit that it may seem like it with verses that talk about God changing his mind or something like that ut i think that the Bible majes it very clear that God is very different and yet the same. we were made in his image, and thus bear some of the same traits such as love. however he also makes it clear that he is so far above us in knowledge that we can't even understand his ways. thus, many verses describing something about him are put into terms that are easier for us to understand.no one changes his mind. also jealous usually has a negative conantion but put yourself in God's shoes. you just createed this entire universe to bring glory to you (well earned glory since you truly are perfect) and the poeple you created either don't belive in you or worship fake gods. id be a little jealous too.we think how can god be so self centered that he wants us to bring him glory. well, he is the only perfect being, he is the only one who deserves glory.
- Jordan -
Do Bibles teach us GOD or Devil shit ? Science teaches GOD much better .........
Atheism Books.
i don't know why but i can never figure out what your saying. please dont think im being rude but your grammar is horrible. i can't figure out what the heck your saying in any of these posts. and i should hope science teaches God, since he made science.
- Jordan -
Is ALL ONE ?
GOD talk is indeed a hugh problem, Buddha simply said , "who cares" ! Everyone should know that ancient buddha rich dude philosopher ..... !
What would Jesus and Buddha argue about !
Atheism Books.
you asking if were all GOD? asking if everything is just part of some cosmic soup? what? your not specific enough? all those answers are no by the way.
- Jordan -
I don't know if I give you the answer you are looking for but here goes it.
The way I remember it sin is basically anything that is bad for you (us). Example if you smoke for 30 years then get cancer don't blame it on the god. The sin you committed was harming your body when you knew it could or would harm your body. The HS is supposedly in your body and soul and smoking not only harms our bodies but the HS indwelt in the body. This of course doesn't explain why children, non smokers get cancer.
The sins made up the by man claimed to be by the god were made at the time to keep civil order and keep the race safe to grow. Sorry I can't find the right words to say that right. If people were to go around murdering for vengeance or whatever reason the race would eventually die out since every one would be taking out vengeance on everyone who committed a murder. If you want people to obey the Rabbi's/ religious leaders then there is a need to come up with someone to pass the buck to.
As far as inheriting sin I think it means after Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil that sin is inherited because they then had knowledge and that knowledge would be passed on to their offspring - verbally. Ahh but what about the babies being born with sin that, I think, that would be the ability to sin, the ability to be able to have knowledge. It seems like the two people Adam and Eve weren't born with the ability to have knowledge of good and evil. It's seems like their brains weren't fully developed enough to have that knowledge. They were born without the ability to think, recognise sin, good, or evil but their offspring would since they ate the fruit. If they did sin before eating that fruit then they didn't know they did. They also wouldn't know eating the fruit would be a sin until after eating it. If they had the ability to know what the consequences would be for eating the fruit they wouldn't have eaten it. They also weren't told there would be a predator lurking around to tempt Eve into eating the fruit and that would be a sin, which would ultimately lead to everyone paying for it. If this god were real I'd say this god committed the sin. A sin against humanity equal to a crime against humanity.
Edit: spelling and now the edit shows up LOL. Patience I need patience LOL
No Edit Crap.
Pass the buck especially when people start to question the human authority who came up with the rules.
It's not me saying you can't do this or that it's the god and I am only saying what he told me to say.
They didn't realize they were naked either until then LOL. I have come to the conclusion that like most religious concepts, if you ask 1000 people what something means you'll get 1000 different answers. Sin just seems like some really vague concept when it is the crux of a religion.
When you think about it, if the bible is true then man really had no chance. I mean you inhereit a fatal flaw from your parents for starters. Then, you have this invisible dude called satan trying to get you to do wrong. Sometimes, you even get god taking bets against you with said bad guy satan. I call this a triple-whammy. If I didn't believe that the story of job was another children's story I would be angry at bible god.
I made a comment to a friend of mine though that if hell is real and I see adam and eve there I'd kick their asses. The funny thing was that he said they wouldn't be in hell. I don't see how the originators of sin could not be in hell. I know this is an incredulous arguement, but his response couldn't be backed up by scripture either. The same guy I made this comment to would disagree with you in that he believes adam and eve were very intelligent. I guess like most people high intelligence doesn't mean much in the way of common sense. Hey they didn't realize they were naked for god's sake.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
HEY, brave theist ? how should I pray ? Can you point to god
You is sick, but at least you are working on it , Luv ya , I really do , you poor devil ....
Atheism Books.
Can you find this part of the bible for me? You've used this a couple of times now, so it might be worthwhile sourcing it. Something like, "but thou shalt question what the Lord God hath written every once and a while." I'm not sending you on a wild goose chase, I'd honestly like to know where you're getting that.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I am not sure if faith and questioning can co-exist. If someone really has faith then you do not need to question. If you start to question one aspect of the bible then you open up a whole can of worms. Unless someone can quote a scripture in the correct context I would have to say that this claim is baseless.
If I had faith, I would read that the stars will fall to Earth when the end comes. However, I know that most stars are much bigger than our own sun and know that this is impossible. Therefore, I can question the validity of the inspiration of the book of revelations. If I can question a book that is supposedly infallible then I would have to have tremendous faith that indeed giant balls of burning gas will indeed fall to Earth. Common sense tells me that this cannot happen and no amount of faith will lead me to believe it can.
This is why I believe faith and questioning cannot co-exist. Of course I know, even hope, some apologetic will come along and say that I am wrong, but I am willing to listen.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
doubting all sorts of things about the Bible are alright, the only thing we are not to doubt is God himself. you are right, we can;t have faith in God and also doubt. however we can have faith but doubt other things such as concepts, facts, stories, etc. doubting these things is natural and not condemned and the Bible tells us to seek the truth (refrence to come). doubting God's existence is more dangerous and no the Bible doesn't say doubt me sometimes. although many character in the Bible doubted God and some point and God did not necessarily condemn them. abraham, job, jerimiah and john the baptist all doubted. they hear God's voice form heaven and still doubt.
does the Bible tell us to seek knowledge, to learn all we can, and learn the truth? certainly.
proverbs 10:14 "the wise store up knowledge but the mouth of the fool hastens destruction."
- Jordan -
Also this verse: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. link
When god gives you lemons you FIND A NEW GOD 1 Thessalonians 5:21
<My art> <not my art><MS>
I find the whole notion rant-worthy!
This is the exact same answer I hear from my boyfriend and various other Calvary Chapel Christians - verbatim! Surely this bit of illogical non-thinking pretending to be an argument worthy of the name is part of the wannabe-Apologist's handbook.
If this "God" doesn't "want" to send us to Hell, who's to say he "must"? He himself? He's supposedly the supreme being and makes all the rules... he can do whatever he pleases, it's his game. With a wave of his invisible hand he could get rid of Hell, the ridiculous concept of sin, the need for blood sacrifice, his need to be glorified and/or worshiped or any of a thousand other rules he supposedly put in place. And if he can't, what makes him "God"? If he can and doesn't, he's no better than an abusive parent... so what makes him worth worshiping?
What I find interesting is that you don't see the problem with your "agree[ing] that most gods do seem to [sic] human," yet turn a blind eye to that very same aspect of the particular god you've chosen to worship, simply because he's the one you choose. ALL gods come from the same place: the minds of human beings. Your god is one of thousands who've been worshiped throughout history, and he's so jealous because left to their own devices, human beings naturally gravitate toward less bloodthirsty, war-mongering, vengeful and tyrannical deities... gods in whose image they can imagine being created, gods who embrace and embody LIFE as it occurs in nature. Your god is a god of death and destruction who punishes human beings for being exactly as he "made" them, who demands glory and worship with threats of punishment of eternal damnation, while demonizing and making a "sin" of those acts that truly DO create life, unless they're performed within the bonds of certain (man-made) legal contracts and without taking any pleasure in them. I've studied religion my entire life, and I've yet to see a more ANTI-human, ANTI-life worldview than that of those who worship a god who considers his creations "filthy rags" who can never be good enough to be in his sight. Even when they go against their very nature and deny themselves so many of the pleasures in life that make it worth living, in hopes that maybe... just maybe... if they suffer enough and still glorify, love and thank his crazy ass for letting them experience hell on earth, he'll give them a pass into heaven.
"Sin" is a convenient catch-all; an explanation of why bad things happen to good people under the watch of a "loving god." Everything from the boil on your ass to natural disasters to pediatric cancer can be explained away using the "sin" excuse. It's a vague and useless concept to anyone with enough of a brain to see it as such, which of course precludes those people in the God business, for whom it is a handy answer that serves to stop a conversation dead in its tracks, and end the doubts of anyone who's already bought into the idea that humanity exists solely for the purpose of glorifying an invisible daddy in the sky.
There are any number of gods who, although they are as non-existent as yours, are FAR more worthy of glory and worship simply because they expect their followers to enjoy earthly pleasures, rather than spending their lives trapped in austerity and self-loathing, hoping that if their earthly existence is filled with enough suffering and denial they might be able to enjoy an afterlife seated next to a creator who'd just as soon toss them into an eternity of hellfire. Off the top of my head, I can think of 10 or 20 gods who are more deserving of my notice and/or loyalty than Yahweh or his zombie "son."
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
ObnoxiousBroad , you are a goddess .... me GOD loves you !
gods and goddess's ...... that's US ! Want to play ? I DO ......
Atheism Books.
.... I have a question to everyone , "what is not godly" ? .... Nevermind .....
Then there is ethics. A much more important personal topic ..... and surely we can agree on many basic ethical absolutes we should present to our young children, starting grade 1 ....
Give me all the kids of all the world to teach , and I will eradicate war and prejudice ....
.... easily , simple , so what's the problem ? <<<<
Atheism Books.