Why?
Posted on: March 18, 2007 - 2:24pm
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Why?
Why is it necessary to "free humanity from the mind disorder known as theism?"
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Besides all the advantages of a society guided by the search for truth and knowledge, instead of the belief in ancient mythology and superstition? If gods were never questioned, or faded away from disbelief, this world would be fucked up, and people would probably still want to throw virgins into volcanoes, and cower in fear of natural phenomena.
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
The Galileo Decree
"By the grace of God.Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church.and especially commissioned by the Holy Apostolic See as Inquisitors-General against heretical depravity in all of Christendom."
"Whereas you. Galileo. son of the late Vincenzio Galilei. Florentine. aged seventy years. were denounced to this Holy Office in 1615 for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world and motionless and the earth moves even with diurnal motion; for having disciples to whom you taught the same doctrine; for being incorrespondence with some German mathematicians about it; for having published some letters entitled on Sunspots. in which you explained the same doctrine as true: for interpreting Holy Scripture according to your own meaning in respone to objections based on Scripture which were sometimes made to you; and whereas later we received a copy of an essay in the form of a letter. which was said to have been written by you to a former disciple of yours and which in accordance with Copernicus's postition contains various propositions against the authority and true meaning of Holy Scripture."
"And whereas this Holy Tribunal wanted remedy the disorder and the harm which derived from it and which was growing to the detriment of the Holy Faith. by order of His Holiness and the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Lord Cardinals of this Supreme and Univesal Inquisition. the Assessor Theologians assessed the two propositions sun's stability and the earth's motions as follows:"
"That the sun is the center of the world and motionless is a proposition which is philosophically absurd and false. and formally heretical. for being explicitly contrary to Holy Scripture;"
"That the earth is neither the center of the world nor motionless but moves even with diurnal motion is philosophically equally absurd and false. and theologically at least erroneous in the Faith."
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
"But to affirm that the Sun is really fixed in the center of the heavens and that the Earth revolves very swiftly around the Sun is a dangerous thing, not only irritating the theologians and philosophers, but injuring our holy faith and making the sacred scriptures false."
Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church and the foremost Vatican theologian of the seventeeth century
"The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved."
-Psalms 104:5
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
Pope Pius IX wrote, in the 1864 Syllabus of Errors
"Divine revelation is perfect and, therefore, it is not subject to continual and indefinite progress in order to correspond with the progress of human reason.... No man is free to embrace and profess that religion which he believes to be true, guided by the light of reason... The church has the power to define dogmatically the religion of the Catholic Church to be the only true religion...It is necessary even in the present day that the Catholic religion shall be held as the only religion of the state, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship."
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
The corrosive nature of theism is not it's irrationality but its dogmatism. The fact that in this day and age, where men have cracked the atom and set foot on the moon, that 5 billion people still believe in some ancient, superstitious dogma over the hard work of men of science is astounding and dangerous. Religion is comprised of a set of mutually exclusive dogmas that chase each other eternally in a circle for converts, each vying for dominance as they are deluded into thinking they are on the one true path. Do you not realize how extremely dangerous this is?
We are on the brink of a scientific revolution. From theoretical physics to molecular biology, ancient spiritual questions, ones that once could only be answered by the myth of religion, are being answered by science. Yet instead of embracing this revolution in the interest of peace and progress for all mankind, people from Alabama to Afghanistan are turning inwards and embracing fundamentalism. And don’t say it is a small minority because it really is not.
We don't seek to actively convert. Have you ever seen an atheist holding up a sign saying there is no God and you have to stop worshipping? Have you ever seen an atheist stop and demand you renounce Christ in the street or leave the God Delusion under the windsheild?
And in your avatar are you suggesting we are not allowed under the constitution to be atheists?
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
Human suffering
Belief in mythology as a reality, makes people more vulnerable to ignorance and evil.
What is that picture of?
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
Jonestown
And unless I am mistaken, that is Afghanistan. If there was ever a good reason to wipe religion off the face of the Earth, the Taliban may have given it to us prepackaged.
Even though I do not support American military intervention in the region, I genuinely do think it was a good thing that they removed those lunatics and barbarians from power.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
This happens in many Muslim countries.
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
That is one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen. Oh yeah...there's no harm in religion.
Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
This 20-minute speech pretty much sums it up for me: Sam Harris.
Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
I"d post a link, but the videos are easy to find. Check out modern videos of stonings. It's fucking sick.
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
This happens in many Muslim countries.
Countries where Sharia is instituted as theocratic law:
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
Oman
Iran
UAE
Afghanistan
Islam is utter fucking insanity. It is the only religion still in existence where proselytizing, religious debate, atheism, Judaism, apostasy, blasphemy, homosexuality, premarital sex and adultery are still punishable under the criminal code. Far worse, all of the above-mentioned offences carry the death penalty
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
A woman can be stoned to death for being pregnant out of wedlock, even though she was raped. They can even be stoned for riding on a bike with a man, and many, many other things.
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
Yeah, I knew this. Seeing it is something else. It really makes it concrete. I think the news should be full of pictures like this, including all the horrors of war. It's easy to pontificate when something is abstract. Seeing the real people involved in real events forces us to further consider our actions (or our inaction).
It makes me wonder how the people in these countries can so easily witness such atrocities...the executions are public events. I suppose if you grow up seeing such things, it takes the sting out of them, whereas Americans are totally insulated from real violence and the very real consequences of our many military operations.
Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
It makes me wonder how the people in these countries can so easily witness such atrocities...the executions are public events. I suppose if you grow up seeing such things, it takes the sting out of them, whereas Americans are totally insulated from real violence and the very real consequences of our many military operations.
Dictatorship is a hard business. Eventually, the people will hate it enough to overthrow it.
Religious dictatorship, on the other hand, is an easy business. Convince the fools that there is a deity watching them like 1984's big brother. Better yet, convince them that they cannot even think free thoughts let alone speak out for fear of damnation, and one can see how the terrible pattern of self-subjugation will take shape. What makes these countries so terrifying is that the people go along with it because they instigate it.
The Middle East today is about seven hundred years behind the West. A place where sullen, ignorant young men watch women burned alive at the stake and brash Talib child-soldiers weilding Ak-47s hurl giant blocks of granite at the skulls of innocent men.
People do not question, there is not even the smallest form of timid attempt at free expression. Why? The rulers long arm of the law cannot catch them all the time, but in their hearts these fools have been forced to believe in vengeful Allah. It is so unfair because for many, it is not even a choice. They were brought up being told this every day. Recititing it every day (Islam is particularly monotonous, it emphasis repetition and recitation more than any other faith. The word Qur'an means "to recite).
You think the fundamentalist Christians are insane? Spend a day in Riyadh. They'll put them to shame I guarantee.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
CIRCUMCISION
"Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) is an invasive and painful surgical procedure that is usually performed without anesthetic on girls before puberty. There are about 100 to 140 million women who have been circumcised. An average of about four girls a minute continue to be mutilated. Their clitoris is partially or completely removed. This inhibits or terminates sexual feelings. It has been a social custom in Northern Africa for many centuries."
"Many people link FGM with the religion of Islam. Actually, it is a social custom that is practiced by Animists, Christians, and Muslims in those countries where FGM is common. There are many Muslim countries in which the mutilation is unknown."
"FGM is occasionally performed in North America on girls of families have immigrated from countries where FGM is common. An analogous practice, Intersexual Genital Mutilation, (IGM) is sometimes performed on intersexual infants -- those born with ambiguous genitalia."
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
OK, thanks Skunk! That helps a lot, but could you elaborate a little on why it's necessary. I'm still not clear on that. Why is it necessary for a society to be "guided by the search for truth and knowledge?" Why is it necessary that we not "throw virgins into volcanoes, and cower in fear of natural phenomena?" Why is it necessary that we stop obscurantism?
Belief in mythology as a reality, makes people more vulnerable to ignorance and evil.
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
I think this guy is setting you up for a morality argument.
No problem. I'm prepared for that.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
I know you are.
"In religion and ethics, evil refers to the morally objectionable aspects of the behaviour and reasoning of human beings — those which are deliberately void of conscience, and show a wanton penchant for destruction. Evil is sometimes defined as the absence of a good which could and should be present; the absence of which is a void in what should be. In most cultures, the words are used to describe acts, thoughts, and ideas which are thought to (either directly or causally) bring about affliction and death — the opposite of goodness, which itself refers to aspects which are life-affirming, peaceful, and constructive."
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
Ummm...I'm sorry...I missed your point.
These religions were originally based on evil, and evil still exist within them. Their "holy books" contain stories of evil, that they try and pass off as glorious and rightous, which they aren't.
"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)
"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30
Lookit, you guys are suggesting that there is some value in getting rid of theistic belief. What value is that, and why is it worth pursuing? If it's to stop human suffering, then why is it necessary to stop human suffering? If it's some other reason, then why is that reason necessary?
What value is that, and why is it worth pursuing?
The very fact that you are typing on a computer is a testimony to the progress of society in technology. The fact that you are on the interet having a free discussion is testimony to the liberalization and free expression of society. When religion calls the shots, these things wane.
I have already explained this in my earlier posts:
The corrosive nature of theism is not it's irrationality but its dogmatism. The fact that in this day and age, where men have cracked the atom and set foot on the moon, that 5 billion people still believe in some ancient, superstitious dogma over the hard work of men of science is astounding and dangerous. Religion is comprised of a set of mutually exclusive dogmas that chase each other eternally in a circle for converts, each vying for dominance as they are deluded into thinking they are on the one true path. Do you not realize how extremely dangerous this is?
We are on the brink of a scientific revolution. From theoretical physics to molecular biology, ancient spiritual questions, ones that once could only be answered by the myth of religion, are being answered by science. Yet instead of embracing this revolution in the interest of peace and progress for all mankind, people from Alabama to Afghanistan are turning inwards and embracing fundamentalism. And don’t say it is a small minority because it really is not.
We don't seek to actively convert. Have you ever seen an atheist holding up a sign saying there is no God and you have to stop worshipping? Have you ever seen an atheist stop and demand you renounce Christ in the street or leave the God Delusion under the windsheild?
And in your avatar are you suggesting we are not allowed under the constitution to be atheists?
Dictatorship is a hard business. Eventually, the people will hate it enough to overthrow it.
Religious dictatorship, on the other hand, is an easy business. Convince the fools that there is a deity watching them like 1984's big brother. Better yet, convince them that they cannot even think free thoughts let alone speak out for fear of damnation, and one can see how the terrible pattern of self-subjugation will take shape. What makes these countries so terrifying is that the people go along with it because they instigate it.
The Middle East today is about seven hundred years behind the West. A place where sullen, ignorant young men watch women burned alive at the stake and brash Talib child-soldiers weilding Ak-47s hurl giant blocks of granite at the skulls of innocent men.
People do not question, there is not even the smallest form of timid attempt at free expression. Why? The rulers long arm of the law cannot catch them all the time, but in their hearts these fools have been forced to believe in vengeful Allah. It is so unfair because for many, it is not even a choice. They were brought up being told this every day. Recititing it every day (Islam is particularly monotonous, it emphasis repetition and recitation more than any other faith. The word Qur'an means "to recite).
You think the fundamentalist Christians are insane? Spend a day in Riyadh. They'll put them to shame I guarantee.
As for the human suffering comment, that makes no sense. Please clarify. Is that supposed to be an offshoot of the "no morality without god fallacy"?
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
So, are you asking the question in general and, hence, advocating ethical nihilism? There are other interpretations, but they are too varied to list. I value things. Most people here value things. I'd bet that you value things. We are beins who give menaing and value to things, so they have value. If you are an exception, then you are simply a nihilist. In that case I have nothing to say to you
If you want some ultimate or absolute reason to pursue truth or prevent suffering, then I'm afraid I don't have one for you. I cannot give for you some objective or absolute reason to seek truth, nor can I explain to you in some ultimate sense why we should prevent harm to people or other sentient beings.
What I can do is simply point out that as sentient, conscious, and emotional beings we have things we care about, things that have meaning, and thus things that matter. Because they matter to us--both individually and collectively--we want to seek them or defend them. And if, for example, there are things that some or many people care about, others have a responsibility to not intentionally act as an obstacle to them if there is no conflict.
Thus, you may not value truth or the prevention of suffering. That's fine, but keep your distance because I don't want people around me who don't value truth or lack of human suffering. But if you value anything, even if it is just your own desires, you have to respect the desires of others in the same way as you want yours to be respected or you are setting up a double standard which creates a fallacy. This means that since others seek truth, don't interfere.
If you somehow desire the lack of truth, then you can support religion all you want. You have that political right, but you will not have any basis for doing so logically, as any basis to subvert truth would need to be argued, and to argue for non-truth using any truth would be absurd. Theism is not based on anything rational, thus cannot be said to be true. So, you don't have to agree with supporting truth at all, and if you don't that's fine. But why would anyone interfere with this? What is gained, besides control of massses and the gain of money through the deluding of those in your influence, in not seeking and raising truth? That is, not supporting truth supports suffering.
And if you really don't know why we should try to prevent undue suffering, then perhaps we can all find you and torture you for our pleasure? If you don't want that, you should understand why prevention of undue suffering is a worth-while activity. For the same reason you (as well as him, her, those people over there, and I) don't want to suffer, you don't want to suffer. If you allow suffering for others, then you implicitly give license for them to allow you to suffer. To say that your desires and values somehow automatically trump those of others is absurd.
But, if after all that, you still don't understand why we shouldn't seek truth, then you are welcome to stew in ignorance. If you don't understand why we should not prevent undue suffering, then you are a sociopath, and we cannot help you.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
No thank you. I think the picture was quite enough for me. If at some point I think I'm not really "getting it" I might watch a stoning, just to remind myself how dangerous religion can be.
Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
I apologize for my somewhat cryptic posts. If you all will bear with me, I will try to shed some light on exactly where I'm coming from. Unfortunately, I am a little busy at the moment, so, for now, it will have to wait. Thanks for your patience.