Why is atheism not a religion?
Offline The defintion of religion is: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. Now, what I got from the debate on ABC, is that athiests want to debunk religion. Now, if you are an athiest, you do not believe there is a God, you belive in science. You have that right. Shouldn't people who believe in God have the same rights? Why is intelligent creation not taught in the public schools? Why do we have to take Darwinism as fact? Should there not be a balance? My biggests problems, other than rejecting God, is the condescending fashion you guys use to argue, athiests challenge everything in courts because it can't be done at the ballott box. You come off as trying to be intellectually superior. It is rather insulting. If you guys want to go hug trees and bow at the alter of junk science, its your choice. But, I should have the same rights; especially when it comes to my child. I do not need him indoctrinated in the schools with something I know to be false and have to come home and try and undue what this godless school system has taught him. Most people I have argued this point with say, put him in private school. Well, I should not have to, considering I pay taxes.
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Offline You obviously missed the points of what Christians have done to us. Also, we never said that Christians are the root of the problems with this country (assuming you are refering to the US). However there are problems that Christianity introduces into politics and legislation that do cause problemsn and can lead to problems (read A letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, he brings up some great points). Three I like to bring up (and there are plenty more) are the three big ones; abortion, gay rights and marriage, and stem cell research. All of the bad things and the reasons that laws exist banning these issues have ONLY to do with religion. If it weren't for religion, gay marriage would not be an issue cause its only in the bible that there are issues with gays, abortions would not be an issue because it should be a woman's right to do with her body as she wants and one of the big ones for me, stem cell research which could save a lot of people but is being held back by religion because of some stupid superstition.
And on the terroist comment, like Sapient brought up in the debate, terrorists don't have to be violent. The threat of violence (in this context hell) can also be attributed to people we label as terrorists.
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Offline Quote:Explain to me theory then [sarcasm skipped -MS].Gladly. In fact, I just did in another thread, and I have a feeling that I will have to do it over and over again.
----- cut here -----Quote:There are many theories of the orgins of the universe but we can't seem to agree on just one so why not plug in one involving God?Well, because anything involving god is not a theory; it's speculation that does not deserve to stand in the same line as what scientists know as theory. A real theory has some properties:
Additionally, scientific theories tend to be peer reviewed and published to the public. By scientific standards, we should have discarded God long long time ago, on all counts.
- It can explain the subject matter only relying on verifiable facts or other theories
- It can predict other instances of subject matter
- It can be independently verified by anyone
- It does not contradict itself or any other theories that were shown to be valid for now
- If any of the above conditions are violated, the theory is either revised or discarded.
---- cut here ----
Atheism comes off as a religion for the fact it is a belief you have. It doesn't matter if you believe in God that you can't see or if you believe in some explosion that happened which no one witnessed.
We have no reasons to believe in the former. We have reasons to believe in the latter, and if it turns out that the latter is wrong we'll just shrug and look for a better answer.
At least in the bible there is testimony
No there isn't. In bible, there are many words none of which can be construed as testimony.
and is one of the oldest history books around.
It is not a history book just the same way as Star Trek is not a documentary.
My friend the bible is to a history book. This is amazing. But it lets me know what I have to deal with as my son progresses through school. Like I said believe what you want, but as the bible states people who follow Christ will be persucuted. That just proves what ministers have been saying...Christians are under attack.
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Okay
Yes, where it infringes on my rights or hinders progress.
Not necessarily, the only thing that defines an atheist is "lack of belief in a god". Besides, there is no such thing as science 'belief'. Merely do you accept scientific finding or not.
Yes, I do.
Yes, they also have the right not to believe.
It is not taught in science classes because it is not science. It can be taught in mythology classes or theology classes.
It is not called 'Darwinism', evolution though is a fact.
Not in science class, mythology is not taught in science.
No, there are court battles because some things are illegal.
I am sorry you take it that way.
No, junk science is christian science. You may bow at the altar of superstition and mythology.
Which rights?
Indoctrination is a church practice, not a school practice.
And since I pay taxes, I should not have my child taught mythology as fact.
I was coming on to read posts, not post since I am at work but since I am bored I feel like responding. Ill work backwards on yours.
First, the fact you pay taxes and that should somehow justify the fact that public schools should have to teach god to those of us that are godless is retarded. The constitution says that there should be seperation of church and state, which implies that if taxes are involved, religion should not be. Regardless of your beliefs (unless you think the constitution is wrong but thats another set of posts).
I dont know about others on this site, but I do not like to hug trees. NOt a big fan of camping myself, I prefer technology. As far as people as you call it indoctrinating those in school with believes you "know" to be wrong, theres reason for that. Its called evidence. Stuff that is taught in schools, such as evolution are fact because there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to support them and very little to not. The reason Intelligent Design is not taught in school is because its crap. Zero evidence besides the bible.
Going to the original subject of your post of why is atheism not a religion is atheism, and this has been stated many times on the forums and elsewhere, is simply a lack of belief in a god/gods. Besides that, everyones whos an atheist usually differs on "beliefs" and ideas.
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Are all claims equal? Of course not. So dont go accusing us of egotism. It is simply a matter of evidece, thats it. I find it quite insulting that without even knowing us that you'd come here and make statements based on an hour of video. How about spending time here before you yourself pass judgment.
Look, if you had a friend, for example, who claimed that he could magically make Lamborginni's pop out from under their bed, would you merely accept it because they claim it?
My point is that not all claims are equal, no matter how much someone wants them to be. And you dont excape judgment of others claims either. I am quite sure in your life, you look at a friend, or co-worker or another culture and say to yourself, "That person?culture, is full of it" DO NOT TELL ME YOU DONT DO THAT!
Do you think that somene claiming to slam planes into buildings will get them 72 virgins is lagit? No, so why would we be any different just because we dont buy your claims either? Because your claims dont envolve violence means they get a pass by default? I dont buy claims of ouiji boards or Loc Ness either. Maybe you should try understandy why I class all these claims in the fiction catigory insted of expecting me to sugar coat life because you think I might hurt someone's feelings.
We are not smug domatic people out to barbaque kittens or spark up oven. Every single human on this planet goes through life the same way. We all feed ourselves, seek shelter and love, and all of us will die someday. But that does not obligate me to bow unquestioningly to absurd claims.
It would be unfair for me to say to you, "You must not question my belief in Ganish who has multiple arms". I expect intelectually honest people to tell me the truth, not sugar coat it because my feelings might get hurt. If someone can show me the error in my claim wouldnt it be wise of me to consider it?
I dont know what is worse, people who make absurd claims, or the people who think we should pussyfoot around absurd claims and never question them. If we never went outside our comfort zone as a species and never questioned anything we would never grow or learn.
"Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson.
"I distrust what god believers say what god wants because it usually coincides with their disires" Susan B. Anthony. If she never question the majority of white Christian men in power, women would still not be allowed to vote.
Your reaction is a natural one, but not because we are hatefull. It is natural because you are not used to challenging yourself to ask hard questions about your own beliefs. Since you dont do that you falsely accuse those asking the hard questions of hate, insted of doing the intelectually brave thing and aim those hard questions at yourself.
At one time the majority of the human population believed the world was flat. At one time humans believed that the heart, not the brain did the thinking. You want us to lie and sugar coat reality? That is an insult to reality and an insult to education.
Do not put thoughts in our head or accuse all atheists of hating all religous people. Certainly some do, no doubt. But calling any claim, be it about politics, sports or even religion absurd does not equate to hate or bigotry.
Maybe you should spend time reading our posts here insted of trying to paint us as monsters. Maybe you could learn something new. OH NO, LEARNING.......THAT WOULD BE HORRIBLE!
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Atheism is not a religion because there is nothing that holds atheists together other than the small fact that we simply do not believe a supernatural deity exists.
Creationism is not science, you cannot prove it or disprove it. If you want creationism and the Bible taught in school, then you must also teach the Q'uran and the Torah, as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. It would be taught as a humanities class, but certainly not science. If you are so bent on having creationism taught, then I'm assuming you won't mind having all the other religious versions of creation taught as well.
You think atheists are condescending? You are insulted by atheism? Well, I'm insulted that you think your holy book is such a superior moral code that you use it to deny people their rights. I find it insulting that you have no problems blurring the lines between church and state when this country was founded on the separation between the two.
You don't want to pay taxes because the public schools don't teach religion, namely your religion? Well, then perhaps the Jews, the Muslims, the Buddhists, Pagans, Hindus, atheists and everyone else who doesn't believe what you believe shouldn't have to pay taxes if your verision of Christianity is taught in schools. Why do you think you have the right to enforce your religious teachings in school, but others do not? Seems a little arrogant to me, don't you think?
If god takes life he's an indian giver
"So dont go accusing us of egotism"
I was simply refering to the 2 people in the debate as well as the lady in the crowd asking about cancer.
"It is simply a matter of evidece"
I find it hard to believe that evolution ever happened for the simple fact, there is no documented history of it. Much like the argument of Jesus Christs' existance.
"I am quite sure in your life, you look at a friend, or co-worker or another culture and say to yourself, "That person?culture, is full of it" DO NOT TELL ME YOU DONT DO THAT!"
I do on a case by case basis. I dont look at a race and say just because they maybe black, white, ot whatever that they are all bad.
"We are not smug domatic people out to barbaque kittens or spark up oven"
I never said it and don't spin it.
"I dont know what is worse, people who make absurd claims, or the people who think we should pussyfoot around absurd claims and never question them."
How is Gods creation any more absurd than you coming from a family of apes?
"I distrust what god believers say what god wants because it usually coincides with their disires" Susan B. Anthony. If she never question the majority of white Christian men in power, women would still not be allowed to vote.
Isn't that what they call gender baiting?
Your reaction is a natural one, but not because we are hatefull. It is natural because you are not used to challenging yourself to ask hard questions about your own beliefs. Since you dont do that you falsely accuse those asking the hard questions of hate, insted of doing the intelectually brave thing and aim those hard questions at yourself.
I never used the word hate. Watch the spinning.
Do not put thoughts in our head or accuse all atheists of hating all religous people. Certainly some do, no doubt. But calling any claim, be it about politics, sports or even religion absurd does not equate to hate or bigotry.
I agree. I never did..spin
condescending remark
OH NO, LEARNING.......THAT WOULD BE HORRIBLE!
(mod edit to remove extra whitespace at the bottom)Get your fact straight. The seperation of church and state is no where to be found in the constitution. It is a court precedent.
The big bang theory cant be proven either, that is why it is called a theory along with evolution.
"You think atheists are condescending? You are insulted by atheism? Well, I'm insulted that you think your holy book is such a superior moral code that you use it to deny people their rights."
If you read through my post, you will see I said you have the right to believe what you want. BE HONEST!!!
Well, isn't that what holds Christians together? We all have different belief systems i.e. politics, science, sports.
Little blurb I found.
"The prevalence of the term "separation of church and state" is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was then quoted and endorsed by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to popular and political discussion of the concept, as well as criticism that the phrase overstates the limits created under the Constitution."
So to a point, we are both right and not. However, whether the thing comes from the constitution directly or not, it still exists as part of US law. There are other things in history that show that this country was founded on freedom of religion and from. For those that are historically inclined, feel free to correct or add to my thing as I am not a history buff in any shape or form.
Everytime I see this argument, I die a little inside. Scientific theory differs greatly with what most people consider theory. Evoltution is fact just like gravity and that the earth is round. True, the big bang has less evidence then evolution, partly because we can observe evolution. We can't quite do that (yet) with the big bang (which many believe to be a misnomer as its generally held that there was no "bang" but I digress)
Ok the issue we have with your reasoning is that again you are trying to hold your beliefs on the same ground as science which has evidence. You have the right by law to believe whatever you want. If you want to believe a snarfwidget (a great term that I learned from Sapient) exists on your shoulder and tells you things, feel free. I could care less. Its when you start telling others that they should also believe that the snarfwidget exists and that what he says should be taught on the same level as science which is heaps of evidence that we have problems with it. Also when the snarfwidge is responsible for laws that make no sense, we have problems. So yes, honesty we are doing. Are you?
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Nobody wants to take away your right to believe what you want--just don't come over here and pretend that you have anything with which to back up that belief and force it upon us. Our issue doesn't lie with the beliefs of individuals, but rather with the individuals who want to influence legislation and use the fear of their imaginary friend's torture chambers to coerce us into their camp. Go ahead and believe whatever you want and brainwash your children and live in an insulated anti-science bubble if you like.
As far as the separation of church and state issue, it's not a court precedent as you stated, but rather the express wishes of the founding fathers (it was Jefferson who coined the phrase to begin with).
The statement you made about the "big bang theory" and evolution just shows your ignorance of the scientific method. Do some research and come back.
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Having been at the receiving end, I'm not down with that whole "brainwashing your children" bit. I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done to protect kids except what we're doing: challenging people to rethink their positions.
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Oh its not.... Due some research because it very much is. I am not arguing Jefferson never said that. It was meant that the government could not endorse a specific religion. If you read the founding documents, you will see this country was founded on Christian beliefs. As a matter of fact they used to have church service in the capitol building.
Thanks, Kelly and Gizmo.
I do have my facts straight, thanks very much. No where in my post did I say 'separation of church and state is in the constitution'.
You can say all you want that you think everyone has a right to believe what they want, but you're actions say something different. Don't believe me? Ask any homosexual couple that's been denied the rights that heterosexual couples have. Stem cell research? I can assure you I am being very honest here.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
The topic that this country has been founded on Christian beliefs has been talked about ad nauseam and I don't feel like responding to it besides this. Read more on the forums, its been discussed many times and do some research yourself. However, it would require doing some work and I am tired today of spoon feeding it for you. For those that wish, feel free.
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I was the one that said it was in the constitution. I mistated as it is not implicintly said there however more implied through other things refering to the first amendment. Again, bad argument on my part but my point still stands.
And going on the stem cell thing, eventually it will be allowed as science will eventually prevail as it always has, however im sure those that were fighting against it are going to be kicking the shit out of themselves when they realize that they had the potential of saving or helping possible thousands or millions but they held it back because of some stupid ass belief in something they had no proof over. I have always found it ironic that Christians and other theists wish to "save" us, yet things that really could are being held back because of their beliefs.
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I still wish an automatic billion-volt shock was sent through the internet to anyone who misused the word "theory."
Atheism isn't a religion for the same reason that "off" isn't a TV channel, bald is not a hair color, and being sedentary isn't a sport.
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Well, what I see when I come to your site is police badges and your bannner states "Fighting to free humanity from the mind disorder known as theism." From that statement that is exactly your goal. Folly
What it means, quite literally, is that the government can not endorse any religion through any of its devices. That includes tax-funded public schools.
Now, would you like us to defuse the idea that United States is a "country founded on Christian beliefs"? And do you by any chance think that freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion?
Atheism is not a religion for the same reason "off" is not a TV channel
Yes. It does not say we're fighting to take away your rights. We're fighting to take away the nonsense you call faith because it hurts us. And we do it honestly, openly, proudly and without reservation.
Police is needed because there are criminals. Atheists are needed because there are theists. Of course neither the criminals nor the theists would miss a chance to accuse their opponents of ulterior motives, but by the end of the day, it is neither the police nor the atheists that is the problem.
Atheism is not a religion for the same reason "off" is not a TV channel
Explain to me theory then, sinse your intellect is far superior than mine. Atheism comes off as a religion for the fact it is a belief you have. It doesn't matter if you believe in God that you can't see or if you believe in some explosion that happened which no one witnessed. At least in the bible there is testimony and is one of the oldest history books around.
You see son, that is an opinion. If you dont want to believe in God, then don't. All I am saying is why do you feel you need to stop christians? What exactly have christians done to you, other than going to church. This non-sense that we are the problem with this country is ludacris. To compare us with the likes of terrorists shows your ignorance. You may not have, but I have heard it before and it is a false claim.
Gladly. In fact, I just did in another thread, and I have a feeling that I will have to do it over and over again.
----- cut here -----Well, because anything involving god is not a theory; it's speculation that does not deserve to stand in the same line as what scientists know as theory. A real theory has some properties:
- It can explain the subject matter only relying on verifiable facts or other theories
- It can predict other instances of subject matter
- It can be independently verified by anyone
- It does not contradict itself or any other theories that were shown to be valid for now
- If any of the above conditions are violated, the theory is either revised or discarded.
Additionally, scientific theories tend to be peer reviewed and published to the public. By scientific standards, we should have discarded God long long time ago, on all counts.---- cut here ----
We have no reasons to believe in the former. We have reasons to believe in the latter, and if it turns out that the latter is wrong we'll just shrug and look for a better answer.
No there isn't. In bible, there are many words none of which can be construed as testimony.
It is not a history book just the same way as Star Trek is not a documentary.
Atheism is not a religion for the same reason "off" is not a TV channel