Hello Lux,

Have you read the introductions of most of the members of this site?  I cannot speak for all, but as for me I certainly did not have a bad experience which brought me to atheism.  Actually, my life has always been more positive than negative.  I was raised christian but so much of it never made sense to me.  Honestly, I could not care less about religion up to the point that it infringes on my life in the form of laws being made based on religious reasoning.  Yes, it annoys me that so much of our culture revolves around theism but I do not deny anyone's right to believe whatever they want.

 In my opinion, you have made a very vast and incorrect generalization about atheists.  I would not do the same to theists.  Some theists have stronger beliefs than others - so what?  Some atheists are more concerned about the effects of theism than others - so what?

The reason that I am here is to discuss issues and listen to different viewpoints in order to increase my understanding and knowledge so that I can make better informed decisions about issues that affect me.  I am glad you are here because you represent yet another voice to the mix. 

Lux, you've been listening to preachers again, haven't you...

In my entire life, I've known maybe one person who left religion because of a bad experience.  Almost all of the atheists I know either left the church because they thought their way out, or simply grew up in a non-religious family and never got sucked in to begin with.

In fact, Lux, I've known lots of people who left the church because of bad experiences, but do you know where they went?  To another religion.

I admit that all of this is simply anecdotal evidence, but I think you'll find that if you actually asked atheists why they are atheists (instead of trusting what the theists say about it) you'd find that you're quite misinformed.

{Mod edit - double post}

Actually, let me be clearer...

In general, I think it's safe to say that most of the atheists here would regard being religious as a "bad experience" in their life, but I think it's disengenuous to say that they left because of a bad experience.

Regarding aging and religious tendencies, it is true that a lot of people become more religious as they age. It's also true that people tend to become more Republican as they age, and I'm not sure you could call that a benefit at this time in history... But I get what you're saying.

And on a completely unrelated point, I'm thinking that I might use your sig quote as the basis of a blog soon. It's a deceptively seductive idea, and I can understand why it's appealing. Keep your eyes open.

Not exactly.

Many very intelligent people stay in church. They just don't apply their critical thinking skills to one aspect of their life, namely religion.

There are also many non-intellectual reasons for staying in religion... peer pressure, family concerns, etc... I've known a great many church going intellectuals who, when cornered, would admit to a much more watered down deism than the dogma of their particular church.

Well, to be more precise, I'd say that people who become atheists use their intelligence in a brave way, but yes, atheists do tend to be pretty smart folks, on the whole.

Since I'm an atheist, you wouldn't expect me to be particularly worried about fairness, right? People are born with the intellect they have, and it's just genetics at work.

Fair enough. I'm curious, how many atheists do you know, and where have you normally met them? I honestly have not known many theists who kept atheists as friends... I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything. I'm genuinely interested because your experience seems so different from everything I've ever seen.

JCE - I am glad to see you say that, I too feel and see the "banging the head against the wall" within this community.  The community here certainly does provide a good source of frustration, almost in the same sense a stubborn 12 year old does not want to do his homework, or a 8 year old wants to stay out past 11.  They are like little children, and you can see it clearly in their stubborn refusal of all things that arent their very own. 

Lux, these kids are the most adamently, militant atheist kids I have ever seen in my life. This isnt a matter of them listening to you, they wont listen to anything you say. I gave them the golden and obvious truth of the matter with contradicting their staple argument and they shunned me lol. They really are that adament to stick with idiotic ways, and theres nothing you can do about it. You too have your idiotic tendencies, such as if you believe the bible is the innerent infallible word of god, or that there is such a thing as an outside authority, but at least you know of god, which is much more then what I can say about these group of little children.

Unfortunately, 1400 years of oppression and this is the result - your religion oppressed the masses and this is the cultural by-product of their resistence. They are here because of the oppression the Christians created. tisk tisk.. both of you, you could solve your differences like some grown gentlement, but instead, you are so ardent to convict each other to "does god exist?" "Yes he does" "no he doesnt" "yes he does" back and forth.

hopefully some of you will grow up - we cant have idiots like this continuing to spread their word of hate - what are we teaching our children? That people are divided into two groups? That everybody can be judged by wether they believe in something as arguable as "god"?

You guys are resisting the oppression of the christian community, and combatting it with further segregation and reverse oppression - youre seeking harmony and balance in the wrong way, with a closed narrow mind. I say this, so long as "Does god exist" remains the staple argument, so long as you continue to seperate and segregate people by "atheist" vs "theist".... your levels of condescent towards others is absolutely repulsive and its also self destructive. but far be it for me to show you guys what is clearly obvious to an unleaning mind.

you guys think, believe, and see things the way that you do not because youre critical thinkers or free thinkers or broad minded, but because your mind is leaning to, the opposite direction a christian fanatics mind leans....

by the way, kids - almost all religions say "you have always believed, you were born believing", and all people reach a point in the religion where they realize that, much iun the same way you have experiences with atheistic beliefs. Christianity - Eyes of a child, Buddhism - Buddha-to-be, Born a buddha, etc.

but my my my it must be because you guys are all so much better then everybody else, far be it for you to do the research with an open mind, noo no no no no! you found your convictions, no need to remain inquisitive about life, you know the answer now lets go to war!

Do you not see you are doing the very thing you are criticizing. You are accusing others of being close minded because they think differently and were not presuaded by your 'awe inspiring' message. I don't think many atheists here claim to know for sure, but rather they withholding belief until evidence is presented. You on the other hand are believing without evidence and when we disagree you accuse us of being close minded. 

you group of self-centered retard did not even assess my conjecture, you just quickly refuted it with "well, i dont believe that", even though its VERY scientifically sound.  You have not even begun to look at what I said, for as what I said goes against your preconceived convictions, you sought first to be understood, then to understand others.  You guys really are idiots, and I call you idiots out of compassion for you, because youre causing your own suffering through your very own bondage of mind.  You live in bondage and you live in slavery, and you think you are - but you are not.  You have been nothing more then a poor conditioned little kid, only diving deeper and deeper into your own illusions the older and older you get.  When you see your self for what you really are, you will see the christians for what they really are, and everybody else for what they really are.  And you will find that just as you have YOUR conditionings, they have theirs...   Also, sometimes a sharp word is a kind word, I call you idiots in the hopes to shock and disturb your dumbasses and welcome you back to reality, where there is no convictions and no assertions and no negations, ther eis just understanding...  You cannot even begin to understand, so long as you think "does god exist" is any kind of a relavent argument.  When you realize how absurd a dumbass question that is, then you may begin to see, till then, you idiots will keep your anti-god rhetoric close to your heart, where you live in bondage of your own self-deceptive egocentric assertions.   

Again, more "whaaa whaaa, my panties are in a twist because you disagree" or "whaaa whaaa, my proof is so solid only stupid retards(though when I cry like this I certainly am being childish) don't believe it". 

You are refusing to discuss because others disagree, rather you have resorted to ad hominems in almost every post over the last few days. Great way to get your point across... 

Which is all it will do. I've been going back and forth with this guy and he's just getting more open about his hate mongering. Watch ... here he goes...  

hate is love, suppressed by the barriers and bondage of ego.

you are teaching them then? Have you told them that "does god exist?" is the argument that has been fought over for 5000 years? Have you let them know that in all that 5000 years demanding either god existing or not has led to war and famine? Have you let them know that nobody has ever been able to solidly answer the question, and that so long as you keep asking the question expecting an answer, you remain a slave to it?

Also - have you ever thought that maturity has very little to do with age? Often times, the older people get the more deluded they become, the deeper they dive into the shallow pit of their own ego, and the more circumnavigated their mind becomes and the more they justify their stupidity.

JCE - if you are teaching these kids, you arent doing a very good job. I repeat, "does god exist" will, always has been, always will be, and will constantly remain to be a dumbass question when looking for an answer. Socrates teaches you guys to shut the fuck up with your answers, and just pursue questions, but you are so convicted by your grand answer of the universe that you cant even see past your self. AGAIN, I dont give a flying fuck how old you are and it matters not how old I am, if you look at this question and demand you have an all-knowing answer, youre a fucking flaming idiot. If you truly think that your wormy little self-serving brains are capable of articulating the 5000 year old question in your apex of cognition, then you are fucking idiots. So long as you divide people into two people, theists and atheists, you are idiots.

and hey idiots - i never disagreed with you, the only things i disagree with is your dismissal of allr eligion as being the same.  you guys really are idiots. 

Hate is love, by the way, and one day you kids may come to realize this.  Hate is negatively charged love..... 

Wow, you must be REALLY full of love because you are spouting hate like a geyser just because we don't see god like you do.

No one here has claimed to have all the answers except you. Again, PROJECTION!!!

You are a FUCKING IDIOT if you are here to tell us how to think because you have the answers, BULLSHIT you have not presented any RELEVENT answers or questions. 

 Same here. I grew up in what I would describe as a religiously indifferent household. I was for many years an ignorrant intuative Atheist. It's only after I grew up that I aqquired enough knowledge to call myself an informed atheist.

I agree pariahjane I don't care what anyone else believes as long as they don't try and push their theology on me.

Anbesol, you act like your viewpoint is so ultimately superior to everyone elses that if anyone disagrees with you they are automatically an idiotic, close-minded idiot. The whole point of these boards are to debate, question, learn, and have intelligent conversations. Not just be sitting here, watch some guy come onto the forums, preach about how his viewpoint is so superior to everyone elses, and automatically agree with him and follow him to victory. No. We have the right to disagree with you. We have the right to try and refute you. We have the right to question you. Just as you have the right to do the same. What you don't have the right to do, is to come on here and attack people who disagree with you.

Now, on to the actual topic of the thread.  I was never raised in a religious home. And, I had always really just accepted that God existed because.. well that's what everyone believed and what everyone told me so it must be true right? Nah. Now that I look back, the idea that a God exists always seemed like a fairy tale to me. Not till I actually started questioning it and thinking about it for years and researching and doing all these things did I actually come to the conclusion that I didn't believe in God. What I think the difference between the Atheist's and the Theist's is that. Atheist's are curious. They question. They keep questioning. And they don't stop questioning. They think critically about things and they don't take anything face-value. They want evidence for what they are being taught and they want facts to back it up. Theist's, from what I've observed.. don't question. Or if they do, they are quick to accept. Theist's don't question as much as Atheist's, and I think that the questioning of Atheist's is what leads many people to become Atheist. Because, Theist's from what I've seen and heard about [ trying not to generalize ] don't critically question that much.

I grew up in a mild-moderately religious, but non-Christian household. And I've always been somewhat agnostic-atheist, so it wasn't a "bad experience" that led me to atheism.

A friend of mine had a rather bad experience with religion, which didn't lead him to atheism, but deism.

Yea, you got me dead to rights. One night Jesus crept into my bedroom when I was a kid and asked me if I wanted to play a game.

WTF are you talking about? Dont try to make us out to be emotional despots. It is about one thing and one thing only. EVIDENCE!

I guess Thor molested you as a kid so thats why you reject him?

You dont see bad in religion? That must mean you dont own a TV set. The 3 big kids on the block want to beat the crap out of each other. So forgive me if I am "sick" of people using religion to justify political gain and justify agression or self defence.

Dont these three ever consider that maybe, just maybe, they are doing something in the name of fiction?

Would you follow me if I told you Thor had the right to kill the inhabitants of a land and take it over as yours? 

Would you vote for a believer in Thor because he promised to give you lower taxes? People do that all the time, but somehow you got it right, so if people would just follow you, everything would be nice and cozey.

The problem isnt that people believe in anything I find to be false. That is human nature. The problem with the species is that they still have an Alpha Male mentality, not an Advise and Consent mutuall agreement goal.

If humanity is to not self distruct it is not based on atheism or theism. It is about finding universal tests that minimize harm and maximize benifit, while still maintaining a majority degree of individuality.

The problem with political and religious compitition is that it goes beyond debate which is where it should stay. Since that is the case, the best course I see is to seek common ground without expectation that the other should worship your position. 

Unless you like seeing Jews and Muslims in body bags all day. Unless you like seeing soldiers die every day. I am so sick of political and religious death when most of it could be handled with a good bitch fest and a beer afterword.

The reality is that no matter your political or religious or national origin, we all want the same thing. We all want love, we all want a means to make a living, and we all want to feel like we make a differance and what we do means something.

I was going to write a reasoned response then I saw who the topic creator was so instead I'll settle for this:

Y halo thar subjective comment LOL!1!!1!  

I am very faithful to God. Chruch doctrine, on the other hand,  has always been a confusing subject. I believe the bible is inspired by men who were inspired by God. DO I think the bible is infallible? No. But I do think that the bible does provide some good parables and a moral compass. It provides a structure from which to find the nature of God. I don't believe that revelations is to be taken litterally. My preist went into this whole thing about how, in those days being a Christian was a punishable offense, so the writter of this book of revelations was actually writing in code. There is meaning of some kinds, but not the litter message contained within it.

The book of revelations is divisive and spiritually destructive no matter how you chock it up.  If it was used for a time that time has passed.  The book of revelations remaining in the bible is to contradict and go against the very lessons of christ.

I too agree that the bible provides good moral direction, and I too believe it was written by men.  Problem is, the only real purity in the new testament is Jesus himself.  Though some bits of good seeped through corinthians and acts and romans and the sort, everything pretty much fell short of the brilliance of christ and his synoptic and gnostic gospels.  He was simply way too ahead of his time...  I like to think that he was able to dissolve the toxins of the fruit, and that his teachings are his hands that are reaching out for us, to pull us back into the garden of eden and out of the forbidden fruits toxins.  And yes thats a metaphor so for fucks sake dont butcher it with "There is no such thing as forbidden fruit dumbass", Im aware of this, god forbid I speak in metaphor.  oh shit, bad word there, huh.

Ok, so we agree, spirits dont knock up girls, and flesh doesnt rise from the dead after 3 days.

So, other than, "I like what this guy said", what do you have to convince me that I should take your position?

If anyone is not paying atttention it is you,

My point is and I have repeted in prior posts is "so what"

Just because you are blown away by the words in a book is irrelevent. I find lots of liturature that "blows me away".

But it doesnt mean that because it "blows me away" that it is no more or no less metaphorical than other things that "blow" others away.

What makes the differance is EVIDENCE!

Warm fuzzies is what you have a case of. I'd suggest you go beyond "I like it" and find some way to demonstrate it. 

Some atheists turned away from their former god(s) because of bad experiences, and found atheism through rational thinking. Some atheists became atheists because of bad experiences and never did so rationally. Still other atheists(myself included), were simply always an atheist.

As am I.

If that's all it was then this site would be a waste of time. You don't have to be a christian to be judgemental. Christian terrorists bomb abortion clinics and foster hate against moslems, moslem terrorists bomb jewish and american targets and foster hate against the same. Jewish terrorists also bomb moslem targets though aren't so much into the hate propoganda(which is not to say none of them participate in it).
A religious war for control of the world is going on. I'm not sure the start of the war can be pinpointed. It's probably been going on since before the crusades. We want that war to end. We want to stop being a target of all three of the major monotheistic religions, and every other religion as well.

I too have sought meaning in life, only to find that the only meaning that exists is that which you make for yourself. If you choose the bible as your meaning that's fine, but I don't think you should go around saying there's a god when you don't know that there is one.

You came across much better than most theists do.

Poor child. You really don't get it.

Uh huh. Listen kid, on the off chance that I haven't already ripped your so-called "obvious truth of the matter" apart already, feel free to repost it so I can. I don't feel like digging up every one of your posts to locate it.

You must really hate being shown as a dumb ass to post 8+ ad hominem attacks without anything of substance. But then that's the quality of a young child, which I'm sure you are. 6 years old maybe?

I'm here because theists in general are war mongering hate machines. Not because of christians and only christians.

Such a hypocrite. Call everyone names and then suggest that others act like adults. Take your own advice kid.

Again, take your own advice and grow up. Learn a few things too.

Maybe if theists hadn't forced the issue it wouldn't be an issue.

Lies. We resist the oppression of religion entire. And your self modeled projections of narrow minds are amusing.

You're looking at the wrong group. Go to a church and say that.

Far be it from allowing me to prove you a pompous asshole with nothing to back up your assertions, since you won't back up your assertions.

If you really believe that then perhaps you can demonstrate why it's rational to believe in a god.

Hey kid, I wonder why every religion claims that everyone believes in it whether it's true or not.

Nice. One paragraph and you completely destroy all your credibility and throw yourself into the fires of stupidity. Have fun there kid. We'll have fun in the real world.

Anbesol, we are here to discuss, not bend to your wishes.

As I stated in my previous warning to you, some people are quite assertive and some prefer a more gentle approach.  On these forums (other than the Kill 'Em With Kindness forum), either choice is within the rules of this site.

Your name-calling and insults are certainly not going to bring anyone to your way of thinking.

Your posts are inflammatory and are clearly in violation of Rule 2.1 Antagonism.  If you continue to post in this manner, you will be banned.

Here is the original argument / first post

I suspect you are not alone in this revelation. As most of us can see, it is easy to question the existance of god and the rationale behind following doctrine. However, it is only when we are free from the threat of eternal violence that we have the courage to look at this reality.  

I think bad experiences turn people away from religion, not away from god. It is rational deduction that I believe turns people from god.