What the English press doesn't tell you about Ayaan Hirsi Ali [YOU RESPOND]
Offline This isn't your typical "You Respond"
It's entirelly possible the emailer is a muslim using a dishonest ploy to discredit Ayaan. At the same time, he could be someone that was misled by that group. Muslims have a nonstop discrediting campaign on all the time for Ayaan. They almost all call her a "proven liar" when the "lie" is simply that she lied about the existence of Allah. Where do you stand on this issue? Do you have issues with Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Do you think the smear campaign is merely bullshit? Have you heard these things about Ayaan before?
For those looking to help protect Ayaan from the almost certain attack from muslim terrorists, you can donate here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/ayaan_hirsi_ali_security_trust
I have alerted the author to this thread.
Ferre sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.
Hi guys and girls,
My name is Ferre, I'm Dutch and appreciate the work you are doing, I'm a
"friend"of Kelly at Digg and digg her stories and I also subscribed to
your youtube channel.
I noticed that you posted a couple of videos with a speech from Hirsh Ali,
the former Dutch politician and want you to have some information that the
english language press desperately avoids to mention about this woman.
For one, she is a zionist and is supported by the powers-that-be in Israel
and America. She was kicked out of our politics because she was busted
lying about her name and the circomstances she claimed to have fled to our
country, when those lies came out in a Dutch documentary she had to reseign
and leave the country and she was immediately offered a job in one of
Rothshield's think tanks in America. Her anti-muslim stance is just
propaganda to demonize muslims, not that I think much of muslims, for me
they are just as delusional as any other abrahamic based religious
nutters, but in Hirsh ali's case this is not about religion, it's about
politics and she is a tool to help Israel and the zionists pave the way
for their wars.
Don't take my word for it, do your own research, and don't think I'm a
right wing anti semetic, I'm not, I used to the the chairman of the
Legalize organization in the Netherlands and was one of the organizers of
the Stop Bush demonstrations against the war in Iraq in Amsterdam, I just
hate to see how the CIA/Mossad/zionists use people like Hirsh Ali to
"work" public opinion.
Hirsh Ali was planted in our country to help he zionists/neocons work the
public opinion against muslims, not because of the damaging influence that
those religions have on our societies, but because it rallies support for
their wars.
As a Dutchman I know what was not written in the english language press,
but I found one article which does have some information on her;
http://fanonite.org/2007/02/20/lifting-the-veil-on-ayaan-hirsi-ali/
Please, don't be a platform for those people's agenda, you guys have a
good thing going and there are thousands of credible scientists and
writers who spread the right message, people like Hirsh Ali don't fit in
the "credibility" group, they just want more wars for their masters.
Please be a platform for atheists, not for "agent provocateurs", they only
USE you when you give them any attention.
Regards,
Ferre, Amsterdam
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While I have no doubt that she is genuine refugee from Islamic fundamentalism (well Islam in general) I do think she is a poor role model for atheist/secular movements. She did have full protection in Holland and the Dutch govermernt should not be expected to fund her international protection. She has basically run from Muslim fundamentalism to Christian fundamentalist organisations.
Just be wary with politically associating with her. While I do disagree strongly with a lot of Hitchens non-religious political views there is at least a clear divide between his view on religion and his right wing politics
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
While I am sure that Ali is in danger, the question is: Is she in more danger than a woman like Ghada Jamshir?
Jamshir is IN Bahrain working for women's rights against Shari'a adherent lawmakers. Last I checked, she was still doing that. I have seen no fundraising for her security. OH WAIT! Jamshir/Jamsheer dislikes Bush and criticizes him for his hypocrisy concerning human rights advocation. Hmmm. One wonders who needs more protection. The woman living in a relatively secular country or the woman living IN Bahrain.
I'm not trying to downgrade Ali's voice. I'm merely asking "Why worry more for her?"
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It's believed the Hofstad Network (Al-Qaeda like) is trying to kill Ali.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
In all fairness, I am truly more worried about our 'own' for want of a better term.
My provincial hypocrisy overwhelms me when I think of global change, but am confronted with local problems. Imagery of LSD buses and whatnot spring to mind.
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Hello, I am Ferre, the one who send this email to you guys.
For one, I am not a muslim, I'm an Atheist like my parents and anyone else in my family, second, I use my own name and picture, I allways do because I have nothing to hide from anyone, everything I stated about myself and Hirshi Ali (which is not her real name btw) is true and can be verified.
I had send that email with honest intentions, I support your cause and wanted to warn you guys not to become a platform for political powers with a hidden agenda, do with it the information I gave you what you like, but I'm hoping that you guys use your brains.
Don't get me wrong, I have no objections towards the message this woman sends, I have objections towards the motives behind the people who planted her in our country. Those people are just as religious as the mulsims she attacks, I'm also not an "anti-semite", I just don't buy zionism and Rotshield funded initiatives and trust me, those people are not fans of Atheism either.
In your responce you say: "They almost all call her a "proven liar" when the "lie" is simply that she lied about the existence of Allah."
This is not correct, She lied about her name and the country she claimed to be fled from, she also lied about being a victim of an "arranged" marriage, all those lies have been busted by Dutch journalists and that was the reason she had to leave our country.
Do your frikkin homework before you defend this woman, PLEASE.
Funny that you mention the "hofstad group", another fabrication busted by the Dutch court, the Dutch court has found that this "group" was nothiing but a couple of crazy (but harmless) religious nutters who got infiltrated by "nameless secret service agents" and those secret service agents gave them weapons, a building to use as headquarters and was feeding them the ideas and plans they got arrested for. Last month the Dutch court declared that they are NOT a "terrorist group"
It's a shame that this has not been translated by the english press, it was all over the news in my country. The same powers that brought us Hirshi Ali, also brought us the "hofman group".
Don't believe me? Do your own research, Dutch court keeps public files and our newspapers do too.
here is a Dutch newspaper article which has the headline; "Court dismisses Hostad group terrorist charges"
http://www.dvhn.nl/nieuws/nederland/article3026216.ece
The court dismissed the charges after they found out that this group was manipulated and fabricated by secret service agents. Dutch people know this, but the rest of the world is, apparently, not supposed to know.
Glad you came aboard.
Just as a heads up, since you do advocate we use our brains, while it's nice to hear your position here, my experience with muslims have shown me how extremely dishonest they can be. So sticking with the theme of using our heads, I hope you understand that I remain slightly skeptical.
And you as well. You should provide direct proof for claims, and then they'll be easier to believe.
So you have a problem with the people who fund her but agree with her message? If that's the case wouldn't you sort of giggle at the fact that your enemy was funding a portion of your agenda?
Not sure how much any of that matters. Wasn't she lying to protect her life from fanatical muslims? We should question why people feel the need to lie to governments for protection from muslims, not call them liars for doing what most people would do.
Agreed. And vice versa as well. I posted the topic so that an open discussion could be had. I encourage you to post links that you think build your case. I'd hope those links will look like they come from decent sources and not muslim propoganda sources.
Furthermore you should know that before Kelly posted information about protecting Ayaan in her blog we talked to a very high power atheist about just this issue. I don't recall the details of that call but I recall having better feelings about the issues you bring up. Specifically the issue of who is funding her, and why, and if that's ok. The issue of liar, didn't come up in that call.
This email was sent by me to the person I refer to in response to a request to support Ayaan security:
These are the places we were being asked to support and a portion of the email I was responding to...
(1) The Ayaan Hirsi Ali Security Trust––a private trust fund that will be entirely dedicated to financing Ayaan’s security. This fund is able to begin accepting donations immediately. Check donations can be made out to the name of the trust, and sent to my attention at the American Enterprise Institute, 1150 Seventeenth St., N.W., Washington, DC. (Please note that this fund can only accept money from within the United States, and that donations to this fund will not be tax deductible.)
(2) A public U.S. charity (501(c)(3)) that will support Muslim dissidents around the world and, among other things, provide financial support for their security––including Ayaan’s. As we are still in the process of establishing this charity, tax deductible donations to it can, for the time being, be made out to American Enterprise Institute and mailed to the attention of Christopher DeMuth, president of AEI, with a cover letter stating the purpose of the donation. (Please note that this fund can also only accept money from within the United States.)
At that point I already was aware of what you were discussing in your email. And I followed up with a lengthy phone call to that atheist leader. My fears were laid to rest, I wish I remembered the particulars. I don't want to ask that person to waste the time on this issue and would instead like to see what the community thinks, and what your evidence shows. So far I'm not that bothered by either of the claims, the fact is, she is helping slow islam down. That's important and I think it excuses a lie for security and a security paycheck from a fundie christian.
Even if you're right. I happen to think our anger should be pointed at the muslim who makes us lie for protection, and the Christian fundie who seeks to destroy islam but claims to be inclusive and loving.
You see how telling me to do my friging homework, considering that I used to actually hold your postion (it was only a brief while) and have done my homework to work myself out of your position, might not be the best argument? Just provide some evidence, videos, news stories, etc. We're all ears.
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I'm not too good at reading this...
Hofstadverdachten vrijgesproken van terrorisme
anp | Gepubliceerd op 23 januari 2008, 17:10
ROTTERDAM - Het Haagse gerechtshof heeft woensdag zeven veronderstelde leden van terreurnetwerk de Hofstadgroep vrijgesproken van het vormen van een terroristische organisatie. Het hof verklaarde in het geval van Jason W., dat hij zich heeft schuldig gemaakt aan vijfvoudige poging tot moord.Laatst bijgewerkt op 23 januari 2008, 17:17
Daarbij was volgens het hof geen sprake van een terroristisch motief.
W. gooide op 10 november 2004 handgranaten naar leden van een arrestatieteam dat hem en zijn kompaan Ismaïl A. wilde arresteren in een woning in het Haagse Laakkwartier. De rechtbank veroordeelde W. destijds tot vijftien jaar cel, in hoger beroep eiste het Openbaar Ministerie achttien jaar. Het hof legde W. vijftien jaar op.
Ismaïl A. kreeg van de rechtbank dertien jaar cel. In hoger beroep eiste het OM achttien jaar. Het hof veroordeelde hem tot vijftien maanden, want het rechtscollege achtte hem niet schuldig aan het medeplegen van de vijfvoudige moordpoging, wel aan het bezit van de handgranaten. A. kwam woensdag direct op vrije voeten.
I think it says, they love the Rational Response Squad and Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a liar for not believing in Allah. But I can't tell.
Anyone got a good translator page, want to translate for the audience?
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Using Babel Fish http://world.altavista.com/
Hofstadverdachten clearred of terrorism
Dutch Press Agency | published on 23 January 2008, 17.10
last updated on 23 January 2008, 17.17
ROTTERDAM - in The Hague the Court of Justice has clearred Wednesday seven assumed members of terreurnetwerk the court city group of forming a terrorist organisation. The court explained in the case of Jason W., which he has turned himself guilty to quintuple attempt into assassination.
Thereby no talk of a terrorist aim was according to the court.
W. threw hand grenades on 10 November 2004 to members of a special squad who him is and kompaan Ismaïl A. wants arrest in a house in the Laakkwartier in The Hague. The court condemned W. then up to fifteen years cell, in appeal the Public Prosecution Service eighteen required years. The court empty W. fifteen years.
Ismaïl A. got cell of the court thirteen years. In appeal it required Public Prosecution Service eighteen years. The court condemned him up to fifteen months, because the court considered him not guilty to the medeplegen of the quintuple assassination attempt, however, to the possession of the hand grenades. A. came Wednesday directly on free feet.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Well, as I said, the english language corporate press has not translated any of this, but here are some links to documentaries which were broadcasted on Dutch tv. You should know that Dutch tv is not commercial, like the BBC they are funded with tax money and have to apply to many rules, one of those rules is to verify sources. OLther links are to press articles in Dutch newspapars, and those are mainstream newspapers, not some unknown blogs or independent biased outlets.
Documentary on Hirsi Ali, called "luck-seeker" translated from a Dutch word which actually means the same as the American word "golddigger"
http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=videoaudio.details&fontincrease=1&reportage_id=4570
Article on the nomination for a Dutch journalism award for the documentary that outed Hirsi Ali as a scammer;
http://www.trouw.nl/hetnieuws/nederland/article643178.ece/zembla-uitzending_Documentaire_over_Hirsi_Ali_genomineerd_voor_prijs
Another documentary wich shows that Hirsi Ali also lied about her being "oppressed" by Islam as a reason for her feeing to our country, apparently she was not being "oppressed" at all.
http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?fuseaction=videoaudio.details&reportage_id=4340
here is an article on the Dutch anti-islam site militant islam monitor, one of the few articles I found in the english language, although they are very anti-islam, they too write about the lies of Hirsi (which is NOT her real name btw)
http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1903
Then there is her History in Dutch politics, she was put forward and given electable positions within two different political parties down here by influencal people who are known Israel lobbyists, as a Dutch human rights activist I happened to be very aware of changes in our local political spectrum, I'm 49 years old and have been an activist since decades, from the very first day she came into the news I smelled a rat, and years later my intuition got conformed by the documentaries that outed her.
Of course, when you are such a fan of her that her lies don't matter, I rest my case.
Now, on your accusations of me being a muslim, Anyone who knows me also knows that I am a highly vocal opponent of ALL abrahamic religions, for me, all the judeo christian brands of religion are all the same bullcrap and the world would be a much better place without them.
I was NOT raised religious, in our country only 30% of the population is religious and my family nor I are part of that since many generations, I never had to "loose"any religion (as most Americans have who are "new born Atheists" and I'm certainly not going to adopt one of the most sick and totalitarian doctrines on earth, which the abrahamic traditions are.
To be honest, I find it rather insulting to be labelled a "suspected muslim" by someone I emailed to offer him information that could help him to stay clear of people who have hidden agendas.
Me too have the opinion that islam, christianity, jewish and all the offspring and different brands of this religions are a plague to this world, I was an activist against those religions before many of you guys were born and to be labelled a suspected muslim by a kid who is young enough to be my son and who knows nothing about me or my past is really too much. Seriously. That retoric might fly in the USA, but don't use it towards Dutch people, they might feel offended, as I do.
Our media verifies sources too, they still get it wrong.
First of all, you should translate the relevant proofs and post the text here. I've spent 20 minutes translating and reading with this: http://www.google.com/translate I have yet to find the sort of evidence I need to start hating her. I read some members of her family said her story was false, and made her story seem more impeded by religion than it is. I also know religious people will lie to defend their religion. I also know that her family would have reason to fear for their life if it looked like they support her.
Thanks for the english site. I spent about 20 minutes snooping around for her on the site. You are not providing evidence, just links, and then you're making us do the work. I for one am a busy man, either hope someone else gets involved to start deciphering, or start actually posting the relevant text that you feel makes the case that we should be up in arms about her.
How about when you're a wiseass who does a poor job proving his case? Then what? Are wiseasses who have hard times proving their case more likely to have bought into a smear campaign? I think so. My disagreement with yor position doesn't equal blind support for Ali. I barely know her... I know muslim smear campaigns and how they work abundantly better than I know Ali. And your arguments have "smear campaign" written all over em. Does it mean we're not willing to change our minds because we're such a fan of her? No. Don't be stupid.
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Good for the people that know you... I don't.
This is ridiculous. Your skeptic senses are weak and/or you took that too personal. You don't see the reasons why a person would have their skeptical senses up? If not, you're saying quite a great deal about your ability to apply critical thought in life.
Our ages have absolutely nothing at all to do with our skeptical inquiry. You were not labeled a suspected muslim, nor was your age known when you wrote the letter. Nor would your age have mattered at all. I'm 30, I posted it, I'm a grown man, not a kid... got that gramps?
You mention how I don't know anything about you, and then have the audacity to be offended when we apply skepticism to your inquiry? Your arguments are so extremely weak. Stop whining about it, some of us will likely suspect you're a muslim for a while. You should applaud that skepticism, if you truly do have a problem with all the religions in the world and how they operate.
I'm in the USA, the site is hosted in the USA, and the overwhelming majority of our audience is in the USA. Dutch law doesn't apply here. Sorry, grow thicker skin.
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Well when it comes to whether I believe the Dutch government /legal system or a right wing fundie group that Hirsi Ali has associated herself with my instinct has to be with the Dutch.
I do not think she is lying in hatred of Islamic fundamentalism but I do suspect some of her motives or at least those she associates with. Too many anti Muslim groups are just fundi christians ones which are just as bad
Jon, 34 fat balding, British human, anti-theist (bar the FSM( and in need of a good beer
Me too. Problem is so far I haven't read a word from the Dutch govt/legal system on the issue. No evidence in English has been submitted. Did you see something that I didn't?
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An attempt at a brief political history of her life from the BBC (not perfect but probably the media source I trust most)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4985636.stm
Its not that she doesnt tell a lot of truth but is by her open emission guilty of lying to public officials in one of the most open liberal governments in the world makes her a poor political ally when trying to promote rationalism.
I suspect a lot of disagreedments on this website and others regarding her come down to pretty much Europe versus America where the political scenes are still vastly different.
I certainly dont buy into the bullshit war on terror, nasty people who want to blow up buildings/trains in the name of islam sure, Islamic world trying to destroy westerm democracy utter bullshit media invention to control some redneck americans and expand an empire. And its this war on terror that Hirsi Ali represents not rationalism, atheism or secularism
PS still love ya Sapient!
That article leads me closer to believing that she's a hero not someone who should be smeared.
"Ms Verdonk said in May that the falsifications made her application for citizenship, granted in 1997, invalid. But a month later, Ms Verdonk wrote to the Dutch parliament saying she had found a loophole which made it legitimate for Ms Hirsi Ali to have used her grandfather's name in her asylum claim."
"The MP has previously explained not giving her real name, Ayaan Hirsi Magan, and saying she was born in 1967, not 1969, because she was afraid her family would find her."
"But after the decision sparked uproar, Ms Verdonk made a major U-turn and said Ms Hirsi Ali could keep her Dutch citizenship after all."
For the record "Sapient" is not my real last name. I use this name for some protection against religious fundamentalists who would prefer to see me dead.
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As far as I am concerned the Hague group is a terrorist gang. They escaped the Netherlands legal system on technicalities.
From another Netherlands source NRC Handelsblad
This is a crude translation. I did some editing and added the picture of mohammed.
Not just punishing for terrorismBinnenland Inland
Arrest of Jason W. In the Antheunisstraat in The Hague in November 2004. (Image Rien Zilvold) -->
Not just punishing for terrorism
Published: January 23, 2008 17:08 | Modified: January 24, 2008 16:44
By Folkert Jensma
Rotterdam, 23 jan. The Hague court has assumed Wednesday seven members of the terrorist Hofstadgroep acquitted of forming a terrorist organization. Terreurdaden punish that have not yet been committed is also a new law difficult. Four points on which the Court corrects the court.The Hofstadgroep was not a terrorist organization but a network of radical young Muslims. With inflammatory and threatening attitudes, that is. But they had no special plans. They also do not have available a coherent violent ideology. It is unlikely that their views automatically to attacks on democracy would lead.
Only Jason W., who in November 2004 with a handgranaat in the Antheunisstraat a arrestatieteam tried to murder, was yesterday sentenced to a long prison sentence. His henchman Ismail A. Was acquitted of complicity in the throwing of that shell, which severely verwondde five agents. His sentence was reduced from 13 years to 15 months. He is expected to be immediately released.
The Hague court found that the new terreurartikel 140 on a nobody could apply. All members of the Hofstadgroep were also acquitted of involvement in a terrorist organization.
The judgement hit yesterday when a bomb. Deep disappointment to the prosecutor that the Rotterdam court last year all members of the Hofstadgroep was convicted. While most group members were already low when sentences of 1 to 2 years. The Hofstadgroep as such had not yet released any act committed, except for the arrest in the Antheunisstraat. The group had not made plans for terrorist attacks or forged. The public prosecutor had to prove that there in the future would be assured.
Last year was the prosecutor absolutely 'pleased' with the verdict of the court. Yesterday the lawyers were just delighted at the ruling of the Court. One of them put on the pavement his arm stuck in the air and cried out: "At last there is once again done right in this ... land”. Land ".
For many, the trial of the Hofstadgroep also about freedom of expression and freedom of religion. Can you still others verfoeide views after? Can you still violent books and movies possession? For others, the murder of one of the Hofstadgroep members, Mohammed Bouyeri Of Theo van Gogh just a proof of the great danger that emanates from fundamentalist groups boys. Even if they are (still) had done nothing, they had already punished can be found even as Cabinet Room and in 2004 they changed the law.
Mohammed Bouyeri
The Court Den Haag yesterday showed how difficult it is to punish radical groups to avoid potential consequences of their ideas.
On what legal points were court and court apart?
1. Was there an organization?
The new terreurartikel a 140, Criminal Code, an 'organization' as a condition with an 'intent' to terrorist crimes suicide. This is familiar territory for strafjuristen. It should therefore be a 'structured and sustainable partnership. " Intent means adjacent (inevitable) goal. In ordinary criminal organizations shows that cooperation generally by the fact that they have previously committed crimes together. The Hofstadgroep that was difficult, because they would soon be started. At least that thought the AIVD (General Intelligence and Security Service of the Netherlands).
The court found the Hofstadgroep indeed such a group. There were exchanged writings and tapes. There was also an ideological binder: radical extremist beliefs and a hatred of the democratic legal system. "Where in the middle of this can continue by all defendants in the same degree was aangehangen". There was also talk of systematic training and recruitment for the jihad.
The Court sees the Hofstadgroep not as a link with its own rules and a common purpose for which cooperation. The questioning at the session and the procedural conclude the councillors that the more a network. One came more into the living room, Mohamed Bouyeri than the other. It was when we had time and meaning, There was talk about everything, not just geloofskwesties but also about politics. Bouyeri Was not always the leader, but was also known as an evening his mouth. Appointments to the texts that were traded with each other to spread, there were not. 'Inadequate organizational substance "says the Court to meet the requirements of the law.
2. Was there talk of a violent ideology?
The court found the club Hofstadgroep an inherently violent 'missionaries'. They are a religion that glorifies violence and the killing of unbelievers warrants. And when the group members do not believe that aanhingen than they had suspected there is a great interest. The court drew that conclusion from the large amount of cinematographic, tapes and writings that process has been taken. The group believes, for example, that they only are due obedience to God. Governments and judges have authority only if they perform their duties according to the sharia, the Islamic teachings.
The Court haThe Court has most of the time (and pages) spent on the investigation of that religious foundation that the Hofstadgroep would have. The conclusion is diametrically opposite that of the court. There are complete digital libraries in the group found as diverse and extensive that there is no meaningful conclusion to draw. Neither on the content, nor whether the group that ideas are shared. Although there were all 50 articles of Mohammed Bouyeri added, but they were not totally in the 675,000 files (963.5 gigabytes) that the boys had on their computers. There was certainly violent jihadistisch material information, but also calmer theological literature. That Mohammed Bouyeri An ideologically motivated murderer proved to be insufficient says about the other members of the group. "It is not even to determine whether they ask for this type had a special interest". And if there was a radical fundamentalist ideology than that still need to arrive at the use of force, according to the Court.
3. Was there criminal 'terrorist' threat, sedition or sow hatred?
The court agreed that it was so broad and quoted from the "open letters" to Hirsi Ali, Cohen, Aboutaleb and other work of Mohammed Bouyeri The group was active on the internet, msn groups and also published material. The Hofstadgroep was working with the public proclamation of a criminal message.
The Court also finds that many of the writings of Mohammed Bouyeri As inflammatory and threatening to be classified. But that is only punishable if the group was planning these documents also disclose. Among them understand the court an "arbitrary, indefinite and unlimited public". Those chosen a narrow circle "certain persons to the exclusion of the masses" that documents put forward, is not involved in "public" and therefore not punishable because of sedition. In other words, criminal sow hatred, opruien and can threaten not in small circles.
4. Why is a handgranaat agents to throw no terrorist but an ordinary crime?
They were court and the court agreed. Everything revolves here to the meaning of the term "terrorist intent." What were Jason W. And Ismail A. Ročnih exactly with those plans? In order legally to be able to speak of terror, the perpetrators population "serious fears (like) hunting," or illegally forcing a government to do something or tolerate. Of the structures of a country seriously disrupt or destroy. From Jason W. We know that he after throwing the grenade has called 'the whole street' to blow. And 20 kilos of explosives that he would have. But he made no demands or ultimatums, find judges and councillors coolly. And the throwing of a grenade to agents is not enough to assume that therefore the Dutch population afraid to be forward.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
For the record, those handgrenades were supplied by a "secret service agent", as were all other weapons the hofstad group has used and was found with, because of "security reasons" this agent was not interviewed in court, but the court did find enough evidence to acknowledge that those people were set up and given weapons and a headquarter by "secret service agents" who manipulated them and it was one of the reasons that the "terrorist group" accusation got dismissed. I didn't read any of that in the translations in the english language, but when you look at the trial reports it is all there.
As one of your members has mentioned, Hirsi Ali works for those who want the war on terror, not for those who want to end the insanity of religion. That's my objection towards her.
When you expect me to translate everything I can find to verify this in the Dutch language you are out of your mind, since when do I work for you? I contacted you with sincere motives and gave links to articles to start out with, but apparently you are not interested to look any further than your own nose lengt and prefer to dismiss anything that burst your bubble.
Funny that, I had the impression that this site was run by people who don't want their message to be hijacked by agent provocateurs, apparently I was wrong.
And also for the record, I hate the abrahamic religions just as much as I hate the powers that sold us the war on terror, that's the only reason I don't like people like Hirsi Ali, she is not helping the atheist cause, she is helping to sell more wars. When you support her, you support war.
"this agent was not interviewed in court" but you're claiming "the trial reports is all there"??
And you know about all this "secret stuff" even though it was not in the news? If you want me to believe you get a copy of the report and post it here. The great thing about capitalism is that a story like this, if it is true, would sell a lot of newspapers because people love intrigue but yet there isn't a single published acount of this.
I'm not sure which "war" you are referring to. As I said before It does not look like they are involved with the war on terror at all. I personally don't see anything wrong with conducting investigative and tactical operations on terrorists as long as it is a legitimate effort to find and imprison criminals. It is obvious that individuals in the hofstad group were involved in crimnial activity.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
I'm pulling the trigger in my mind due to overwhelming work load. I suspect he's a muslim. If he's not a muslim he's too stupid to be part of my cause anyway. What a horrible thinker he is. Clueless, just fucking clueless.
I tried, I really did.
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Here's a link to an article which questions the role of the intelligence service, and the role of "agent B" with the hostad group, it also mentions that they had received their headquarters from this intelligent service.
http://www.nrc.nl/dossiers/moslimterreur/daders_verdachten_terroristen_t/article103725.ece/Het_mysterie_van_de_onbekende_extremist...
And I'm just as much a muslim as your mom.
and to question your answer whether I hate all religions, the answer is no, I have no beef with buddhists, I find paganism funny and shamanism interesting and there are a couple of other religions I don't have any problems with, like the flying spaghetty monster and the church of reality.
Translation
Funny that, you actually stated that you don't believe things because you are not educated enough to read the evidence in the original language.
And before you sit down and think of a smartass remark towards me, have a look at the definition of "ad hominem", when you have done that, read your posts back again, from the very first one on and ask yourself why we got off on the wrong foot.
And another thing, if I were you I´d start wearing my tin foil hat, there´s a muslim conspiracy out there to get you.
"Rational responder"? Dude, you are a joke. I supplied you with the links to the articles which proved my point, and one of your moderators supplied you with translations that are good enough to see that the points I brought up are true.
Who is "too stupid" now eh? I didn't respond for a couple of days, waiting for an apology for your false accusations of me being some sort of muslim agent, but apparently you are "too busy" to feel ashamed for the little prick you displayed to be.
Your kind of people remind me of your political leaders, you would do well in American politics with that attitude. It's also your kind of attitude which gives Americans a bad reputation abroad, you are just another stupid American with a big mouth and little education. I bet most 14 year olds in my country could beat your ass in an intelligent test.
I also bet you were circumcised and indocrinated and baptized as a child, it might explain your irrational paranoia.
It are gullible people like you that are used by neocon fascists to spread their message, you are no asset to the Atheist cause at all, you are just a handy tool for neocon fascists.
Apparently I was just feeding pearls to the swines.
People like me are not only fighting against totalitarian religious doctrines and fascism (which goes hand-in-hand btw, but little do YOU know about this reality), apparently we need to fight stupid pricks within the movement who are used by those fascists to spread their message too.
The recent links supplied dealt with a follow up issue, not the original.
Want to really make an impact? Prove your case yourself, don't force me to waste dozens of hours wading through nothing in order to find the gem.
Still, you.
Don't waste my time. Want to make an impact? Prove it. We're all ears, anyone in this community can stand up for you and help out. Nobody has... they're all welcome to. Now please stop gnawing on my ankle, and get off the floor.
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I gave you links to the ORIGINAL documentary dude, and ORIGINAL newspaper articles, you are just too stupid to understand another language, that's all.
I did, but you wouldn't recognize shit if it hits you in the face.
And trust me, I do not "hate" Hirsi Ali, I'm also not "smearing" her, she did a good job at that herself already.
BTW, you "believe" that she fled from Kenya to be save from muslims because she was vocal against them, this is false, she got vocal against muslims only after she was in my country for years already and settled in our political system, before that, she never spoke out against muslims and therefor had nothing to fear either.
It is a misconception to believe that she fled because of her activism from Kenya, she wasn't active at all when she lived there.
You act like someone who doesn't care that neocons hijack your cause for their own political agenda, as long as they are against muslims right? Well, down here we don't think that way, for one, Atheist are the majority in our country and we don't care much about muslims and christians, they are a minority. That's maybe why those who suddenly start pushing their hatred agenda catch our attention and why we look for their motivation behind it, don't you wonder why those people start stirring problems in a secular society?
Hey Ferre...
I've been reading a long with interest, but I don't speak the language either. I resent the notion that not understanding a language implies stupidity, it is just not a native language in my country.
I would love to see some more information, if you could translate it for us and post it here it would be a lot more constructive than the bickering back and forth and posting of links that few if any people here will understand due to the language barrier.
I really don't know much about the woman. I know that I have seen her speak a coule times and she tells a fantastic story and is doing a lot of positive things on that front.
I don't know what all her history is, but I do have an idea of her current situation. To me her current situation seems like one that is very positive and very dangerous.
So unless you are going to be able to help myself and others out by providing information that we can actually understand I don't see a reason to think low of a person or discredit a person based on 1 persons opinion and a bunch of links and videos that I don't understand.
Hi All,
Although I am Dutch, I stayed clear of this thread until now.
I don't have a lot to add to the discussion, but I do have a few points.
The English wikipedia states most of the facts brought up by the links provided by Ferre, so they weren't exactly a secret. I read all the linked posts of Ferre and wiki basically says the same stuff. I don't differ much from Ferre concerning the facts, but I do differ concerning the interpretation and use of these facts. From the links he provided, I couldn't see any evidence of a "Zionist plot".
I didn't quit understand what the significance of the Hofstad group not being a terrorist group was. I think they were found to be a terrorist group by a lower court, but the higher court overturned that decision. In Holland the requirements to be convicted of being a member of a criminal or terrorist group are very high. For example, the Hell's Angels also didn't meet that standard. So not being convicted of being a member of terrorist organization, doesn't mean these guys were harmless boy scouts.
I think it is more likely that the English press does have excess to all the information on Ayaan, but consider this to be a Dutch internal issue that has been resolved. And according to the Dutch parliament, it has been resolved. The facts are known and this is no longer a political issue. The protection for Ayaan was cancelled outside the Netherlands. As far as I know there is no talk of cancelling the protection inside the boarders.
Also I don't share his view that the Dutch would be more intelligent than Americans. The Dutch usually speak English to varying degrees, because we are a small country that relies on an international economy, not because we are so intelligent. (Also Dutch TV is largely English spoken import and is almost always subtitled, so we come into contact with a lot of English with the translation handy.) My father speaks 6 languages and I only two, so does that make him three times more intelligent?
To Brian -
For what its worth, if Ferre is who he says he is, I don't think he is a muslim.
(ps The translations generated by the translation sites were hilarious. LOL.)
WillemThanks for the insight Willem, much appreciated.
Willem, thanks for being sane.
Ferre, I had enough of your way off the mark insults, you fucking asshole.
mods: don't ban him, let him keep digging the hole
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I have no comments on the rest of this thread, but the 'dishonest ploy' you are looking for regarding Muslims is called Al-Taqqiya - "the legal lie". Any lie told if its intention is to further Islam or Islamisation is acceptable. However when asked about this doctrine many Muslims will "taqqiya" about "taqqiya" (lol) and say "its just a shia thing" (Shia is a sect of Islam).
Muhammad himself, Mr. Uswa Hasana was a liar and endorsed lying. Let me know if you want some sources from Islamic texts
Okay sorry for the slight hijack there.
-Sani
Sapient, I think you are an asshole too, but I thank you for not resorting to abusing your power and banning me because you have a personal beef with me.
sadly enough I cannot prove that Hirsi Ali is a neocon asset, but her actions indicate that she is definately not a liberal minded person, and her supporters are mostly far-right neocons, and here is an article by an American who analized her speeches;
http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2008/tle456-20080217-03.html
I also would like to thank Willem for his open mind and not buying that muslim bullcrap that Sapient attempted to "discredit" me with to begin with, as I've said before, I am not a muslim and have no affiliations with muslims either, but I understand that accusing someone of being a muslim is becoming fashionable in order to smear them and make them "suspect" to begin with. That tactic is "ad hominem", it's the equivalent of white supremacists calling people "nigger lovers" when they don't like what they say. Or the old "anti-semite" card that Israel defenders pull against everyone who dares to ask them to obey the Geneva conventions and international law.
Needless to say that I found this insulting, but at the same time Sapient displayed his own poor character with doing this.
As I said before, I do not hate Hirsi Ali, I just don't think she is a good "role model" for the Atheist movement, of which me too am part of. I tried to give you the reasons why I think she is not a good role model and I did provide links which at least showed that she is a liar.
I have great respect for people like Richard Dawkins and Pat Condell, who are vocal against the Abrahamic religious indoctrination systems without pushing the agenda from war profiteers but apparently there are people like Sapient who do not recognize the difference between people like Hirsi Ali and those who do not have a political agenda behind their actions.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Sapient being sceptical, he should be a bit more sceptical actually, and learn to distinguish between those who try to improve things and those who try to push a far-right neocon agenda.
Of course, maybe Sapient believes that Jim Davidson is a muslim too, and anyone else who "dares" to criticize liars like Hirsi Ali, or are they just "assholes"?
I do agree that certain religions are a plague to humanity, I just don't agree with some people's idea to solve this problem, I prefer to use reason and education, ridicule and satire, I believe that pushing for violent confrontations is counter productive and I do not support those who aim for violent confrontations, like Hirsi Ali and the like.
It's not hard to get a mad bull attacking you when you wave a red flag to annoy him, we can all do that, it doesn't take much brains, Hirsi Ali and people like her don't offer solutions, they only add fuel to a conflict while making money from it and that's my main objection. Call me a "asshole" for thinking that way as much as you like, at the end any conflict needs a peaceful solution, by promoting hatred solutions only get delayed.
I think you're confusing atheism with liberalism. I'm not particularly fond her politics, being a fairly liberal Canadian, but when it comes to fighting against religion it is great to have conservatives out there like Ali and Hitchens. It is a strong demonstration that this is not a liberal only movement like the majority of social changes.
Mr Atheist, I can agree with Hitchens too, and many other conservatives, I just can't agree with people who support and actively aim towards violence in order for them to prove their point.
Stalin was an atheist too, but I wouldn't choose him as a rolemodel either. Being an atheist and vocal against indoctrinating religious groups doesn't make a person by default someone to support in my book, and as I said, stirring violence is counter productive for any cause, it only distracts from finding real solutions.
You know that the justification Hitchens offered for war with Iraq is essentially that it's the only way to end Islam? Murder them, because talking to them will do us no good. Or maybe you were too stupid to know that?
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I didn't know that, not because I'm "too stupid" but because I did not read or hear him stating that, at least I can read and write a couple of other languages apart from my own, and have been outside my own country. I still think your circumcision and baptism frustrated you though, to a point where you became obnoxious to others.
Seek help.
First, drop the whole I can speak other languages thing. That one is or is not multi-lingual is no indicator of intelligence. It is an indicator of exposure to other languages or education in other languages. It is much more common for people to be multi-lingual in places where non-native languages are a standard part of the educational curriculum, especialy in early education, or in areas where one is likely to encounter people speaking other languages often. In the U.S., most people are only exposed to English during their lives and so to expect them to know, or even care to know, any other language is ridiculous.
You don't seem stupid to me, but you do seem somewhat paranoid. A little conspiracy theorist like, perhaps. That people doubt the claims you level against this woman is what you should expect from a site of freethinkers and skeptics. Especially when the only other person who speaks the language of the linked material that has commented does not arrive at the same conclusions you apparently do. I do not agree with Hirsi Ali's political ideologies but I do see her as an asset in the battle against Islamic fundamentalism, or even the Islamic religion as a whole.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
Vessel, you are right in many ways, and those points we don't agree upon could be subject of an intelligent exchange of thoughts between you and me. I'm sorry to use ad hominem arguments in this tread, and when you read all the posts you will notice that I only do that when I reply to Sapients ad hominem attacks on me personally.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I'm not naive either, I'm too old for that, sapient started out with ad hominem attempts to discredit me in the first place and when I came here and provided the links to articles he asked for he decided to continue the insults towards me, mind you, I don't mind scepticism, I do mind being deliberately insulted for no reason.
I told you guys that Hirsi Ali is a liar, which is correct. I told you guys that she is supported by neocons, which is correct too.
Sapient told you guys that I'm a muslim, which is a lie. Sapient told you guys that there is no evidence of what I stated, which is a lie too.
Then he starts calling me an "asshole"? Methinks that guy has some "issues", he certainly doesn't have much social skills.
Anyway, hirsi Ali is not one of my pet peeves, when I wrote that email I also wrote to "Not take my word for it, do your own research", apparently Sapient is too lazy to do any research and prefered to paint me as a muslim conspiracy against Hirsi Ali and a liar when I told him I'm not a muslim. Now how's that for sceptisism?
Virtually, everyone on this planet is a liar. (including you, coming up...)
So is the Saudi Govt, the govt of Israel, and in the past... the Taliban.
So what? The enemy of their enemy is their friend... good for her she can milk them for protection money.
I believe I indicated skepticism about your religious position, I never stated you were and claiming so is a lie.
Should we hate you like you hate Ayaan now?
Did I say those words? I don't recall, I think this is another lie from you. Someone find me saying either of the above two things and I'll stand corrected.
Yes, after you showed yourself to be an asshole. How fucking dumb you must be to think that knowing 2 languages in a country where almost everyone knows two languages makes you smarter than someone else. You idiot.
No, I only hear things like "he's a good leader" "he has an uncanny ability for uniting large groups of people" "getting people to work with him is his best quality" only about once a day.
And this is why you're an asshole. You bitch about lying in your first few sentences, then go on to lie throughout the rest of your post. I never indicated I was too lazy to do my own research, I indicated that if you are going to convince me of your position, you would need to do a better job proving it. It's not up to me to research what I already have, it's up to you to show me what I was missing, if you want me to hold your position. Until then I consider myself researched on this position, and you a muslim pawn.
As for skepticism, you wouldn't know it if it bit you on the ass. Oh it's not spelled "sceptisism" Mr. I'm Smarter because I know two languages.
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Well, to me Sapient posted the first one with the proposition that there may be some merits to your argument, but you may also be a muslim just attempting to discredit her in the usual manner. The fact that he posted your message at all is a credit to the fact that he gave you some respect.
We then waited for you to provide interesting information that would reveal this position to us. I am too lazy to go extensively chasing conspiracies so I had hoped you would get me started with justification believe your conspiracy theory.
You did provide a series of links, though none of them I could understand. You then proceeded to call me "stupid" for not understanding your native language which is simply obnoxious. There is great justification at this point to totally write off anything you have to say because you apparently put more value into the education of languages than you probably should. It was a petty attempt to be offensive and it backfired on you and made you look like a total ass in front of a large group of people that are not bilingual. I did learn french growing up as that is one of the core languages in my country...if you don't know french you are just an ignorant moron. Is that a fair statement?
We then had someone who does understand post a comment that there is no merits to the argument based on the links you posted. To me this removed justification to invest my time into researching it further.
So I will take your advice and not take your word for it.
Thanks for coming out.
Thumping your own horn eh? How mature. I guess being circumcised gave you a huge inferiority complex, as I said before, seek help.
What's next? Are you going to brag about the famous people you know?
He was refuting your argument that he had no social skills. I think that was obvious and has nothing to do with bragging but merely a demonstration of his social skills that you claim he doesn't have. You can't claim that a person doesn't have something, and when they try to demonstrate that they do, call them out as a braggart.
What does this have to do with having skin cut off or an inferiority complex? Are you suggesting that all people that have bee circumsized have the tendancy to have a n inferiority complex? What do you base this statement on? Is this the same logical flow you used to determine that people that don't speak your native language are not intelligent?
You are really bothered by that flap of skin covering your glans aren't you?
I'll have Kelly check my penis later though, maybe she can help lick any problems off.
Sure why not. You know how I know about Hitchens position on Iraq? He told me himself in my hotel room over a whiskey a few months ago. Later that night I had dinner with Sam Harris and Charles Darwins great great grandson.
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Hey Weird Al, he even looks like you...
FerreVote for Democrats to save us all from the anti-American Republican party!
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Hi! Can you please advise what thumping a horn is?
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
Masturbation.
It are the same ridiculous AD HOMINEM arguments as those used against me, funny how you do recognize how ridiculous ad hominem arguments are when they are used to reply to ad hominem arguments from your leader.
I found it to be funny to call him out on being circumcized, down here this is only done by religious zealots, jews and muslims particulary. sapient has the mark of a religion he hates and can never get rid of it, poor guy, aint that ironic. He can shout out to be an atheist as loud as he wants, inside his pants he's religious as hell.
You guys give the old pot-kettle a honorary statue and to be honest it is rather amusing.
Oh what an achievement, the kid has sex, wow, I'm really impressed now.
When you ever get the chance to talk to Bill Maher, ask him who he travelled all the way to Amsterdam for to interview last year January, and why he found this person important enough to talk to for a documentary on the stupidity of religion, you might be surprised to hear the answer.