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Tons of assumptions and incorrect claims (you respond)

Posted on: December 11, 2006 - 2:15am

RationalRespons...

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Tons of assumptions and incorrect claims (you respond)

YOU RESPOND:

Quote:

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Rushton D
Date: Dec 11 2006 2:56 AM

you guys are a little hard nosed about this, ehhh? Now, I'm not the most religious guy, but wow, you guys are after all religion and all faiths, beliefs, etc. what then? In your view are we here today gone tommorow? YOu now, if you don't beleive in heaven and hell, and any type of morality, you have no reason to govern your actions, for example, if a heaven and hell don't exist, thenyou have no reason not to go out and rape and pillage your way to the top. I'm not suggesting that is what you guys are about, but the wrong person begind to believe that there is no heaven and hell all hell breaks loose here, Hitler was that kind of man, he didn't truly believe in afterlife, spirituality, etc. scary, it meant that to him, what he did had no consequences, because after all if there is no god, and no afterlife, take what you want, kill, rape, steal, who gives a damn, in the end the results are the same, you're dead. Not such a good belief system, you see, all people's beliefs aren't necessarily true, they are just beliefs, religion is a belief, albiet sometimes a little disturbing, (video on Jesus Camp). I choose to believe that all religions are trying to do what is right, and just because we don't all agree on what is god, doesn't mean that spirituality doesn't belong in our world, I believe its important, and a pillar of strength for many GOOD people. So, having said all that, I hope you guys realize that there are people out there who lean on "god" occasionally to help them to think through things, and to decide what is the right thing to do, sometimes this sort of action (prayer) prevents individuals from making horrific decisions. Just something to think about, a world without religion would be worse, not better..., in my opinion.

take care

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Posted on: December 11, 2006 - 2:41am #1

Voided

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Rushton D wrote:you guys are

Rushton D wrote:

you guys are a little hard nosed about this, ehhh? Now, I'm not the most religious guy, but wow, you guys are after all religion and all faiths, beliefs, etc. what then? In your view are we here today gone tommorow? YOu now, if you don't beleive in heaven and hell, and any type of morality, you have no reason to govern your actions, for example, if a heaven and hell don't exist, thenyou have no reason not to go out and rape and pillage your way to the top.

Depends on your level of morality. It sounds like you are reasoning from a reward and punishment system. Sounds like the kind of thing little kids tend to need to behave. I suggest you take a look at
http://www.asktheatheist.com/question/where_do_atheists_get_their_morals_from

Quote:

I'm not suggesting that is what you guys are about, but the wrong person begind to believe that there is no heaven and hell all hell breaks loose here, Hitler was that kind of man, he didn't truly believe in afterlife, spirituality, etc. scary, it meant that to him, what he did had no consequences, because after all if there is no god, and no afterlife, take what you want, kill, rape, steal, who gives a damn, in the end the results are the same, you're dead.

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]

"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125]

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief." [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God." [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174]

"Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve." [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309]

That doesn't sound like an atheist to me.

Quote:

Not such a good belief system, you see, all people's beliefs aren't necessarily true, they are just beliefs, religion is a belief, albiet sometimes a little disturbing, (video on Jesus Camp). I choose to believe that all religions are trying to do what is right, and just because we don't all agree on what is god, doesn't mean that spirituality doesn't belong in our world, I believe its important, and a pillar of strength for many GOOD people.

"Good" people shouldn't need a god to decide what is "good." If they can't then it says more about them then it does us.

Quote:

So, having said all that, I hope you guys realize that there are people out there who lean on "god" occasionally to help them to think through things, and to decide what is the right thing to do, sometimes this sort of action (prayer) prevents individuals from making horrific decisions. Just something to think about, a world without religion would be worse, not better..., in my opinion.

And I think religion has held us back on many levels. How many people and ideas have been lost in the name of religion?

Quote:

take care

You too man.

Posted on: December 11, 2006 - 2:53am #2

Ophios

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People=Nothing?

I like it how people like these seem to forget that PEOPLE MATTER TOO!

Heaven forbid that you do good, for the good of OTHER PEOPLE.
No, you do it for YOUR spirituality, or so god won't send YOU to hell.

Jail apparently means nothing to this guy. I'm glad he and all people who have this narrow, selfish mind, have a god to think about. Because it's these people who do horrible things, and they do it becuase PEOPLE MEAN NOTHING TO THEM!

AImboden wrote:

I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.

Posted on: December 11, 2006 - 3:04am #3

MarthaSplatterhead (not verified)

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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

YOU RESPOND:

Quote:

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Rushton D
Date: Dec 11 2006 2:56 AM

you guys are a little hard nosed about this, ehhh?

um...We are serious about rational thought.

Quote:

Now, I'm not the most religious guy, but wow, you guys are after all religion and all faiths, beliefs, etc. what then?

We are looking to end the irrational mind virus known as theism. And to awaken the long dormant ability known as critical thinking. Then live a more meaningful existence than one consumed with fear that religion causes.

Quote:

In your view are we here today gone tommorow?

I am existing in the time I was born until the day I happen to die. If that's tomorrow then I guess your statement would be correct. (But I hope it's not tomorrow).

Quote:

YOu now, if you don't beleive in heaven and hell, and any type of morality, you have no reason to govern your actions

My morality comes from avoiding adverse consequences. If I steal from the local store and get caught, I will not be able to shop from there. If I tell a lie to a friend and another friend blows it up, then the first friend won't trust me. If I kill someone, I go to jail and live with the guilt that I left their family to grieve.

Quote:

for example, if a heaven and hell don't exist, thenyou have no reason not to go out and rape and pillage your way to the top.

If I go out and rape and pillage my way to the top, then I will probably be going to jail before getting to the top.

Quote:

I'm not suggesting that is what you guys are about,

Cause we're not and we don't eat babies neither.

Quote:

but the wrong person begind to believe that there is no heaven and hell all hell breaks loose here

Actually, statistically there are way more Christians in prison than atheists which tells me that if you do believe in heaven and hell you think it doesn't matter what you do in this life. Furthermore, I have never heard of an atheist declaring war on another nation.

Quote:

Hitler was that kind of man, he didn't truly believe in afterlife, spirituality, etc.

I don't know about that. He certainly used god-belief to motivate the ethnic cleansing.

Quote:

scary, it meant that to him, what he did had no consequences, because after all if there is no god, and no afterlife, take what you want, kill, rape, steal, who gives a damn, in the end the results are the same, you're dead.

My philosophy is quite the opposite. I do give a damn because in the end that's it. No do-overs. I want to get this one right.

Quote:

Not such a good belief system, you see, all people's beliefs aren't necessarily true, they are just beliefs, religion is a belief, albiet sometimes a little disturbing, (video on Jesus Camp). I choose to believe that all religions are trying to do what is right, and just because we don't all agree on what is god, doesn't mean that spirituality doesn't belong in our world,

They try to do what is right for the most part until another religion conflicts with the ideals they hold in high regard. Spiritual is another word for immaterial which means "of no importance." If you could help people get a grasp on reality, wouldn't you want to try?

Quote:

I believe its important, and a pillar of strength for many GOOD people. So, having said all that, I hope you guys realize that there are people out there who lean on "god" occasionally to help them to think through things,

Well, you may well have said, heroin is a pillar of strength for many good people. There are those who seem to not be capable of functioning without their addiction to heroin.

Quote:

and to decide what is the right thing to do, sometimes this sort of action (prayer) prevents individuals from making horrific decisions.

Prayer doesn't work. Believing that you can jump in a lions lair and praying to god that the lions won't eat you is not a healthy mind set. Actual story.

Quote:

Just something to think about, a world without religion would be worse, not better..., in my opinion.

How bad does the world got to get now with religion for you to see that it might just help to try living without it?

take care

thanks.

Posted on: December 11, 2006 - 3:09am #4

MarthaSplatterhead (not verified)

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I just wanted to add that

I just wanted to add that jail isn't necessarily the reason for my morality neither. I just enjoy reaping the benefits of being true to myself and the people around me.

Posted on: December 11, 2006 - 4:12am #5

ImmaculateDeception

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Quote:you guys are a little

Quote:

you guys are a little hard nosed about this, ehhh?

Ok, I checked your profile, and you're not Canadian. I am born and raised in Canada and I am hereby forbid you from using 'eh' for your own purposes. Sorry, we're really strict about that kind of thing here. Americans say it wrong. They always say "ey" or "A" or something. Pisses me off.

Quote:

Now, I'm not the most religious guy, but wow, you guys are after all religion and all faiths, beliefs, etc. what then?

No one here is trying to abolish religion. We'd rather people give up religion themselves. What then? People actually start thinking for themselves, that's what.

Quote:

In your view are we here today gone tommorow?

If your life lasts 24 hours, then I suppose so. If that happens, then you're very unlucky. Or a gnat.

Quote:

YOu now, if you don't beleive in heaven and hell, and any type of morality, you have no reason to govern your actions, for example, if a heaven and hell don't exist, thenyou have no reason not to go out and rape and pillage your way to the top.

This is a very questionable statement. I choose not to rape, pillage and murder because I know these things are wrong. How do I arrive at the conclusion that they are wrong? Empathy is something basic to human nature. It stops you from doing bad things to people, it makes you feel sick and a little dizzy at that thought of doing something like this. If you talk to the people around here, you'll find that most of them are very compassionate individuals who truly want to make the world a better place. Reason and empathy are what drive them to do that, not scripture.

That being said, if I wanted to entertain what your theory, then I should note that you said earlier that you were not a very religious person. I suppose that makes you not a very moral person.

Quote:

I'm not suggesting that is what you guys are about

You just did. Rather blatantly, I might add.

Quote:

but the wrong person begind to believe that there is no heaven and hell all hell breaks loose here, Hitler was that kind of man, he didn't truly believe in afterlife, spirituality, etc. scary, it meant that to him, what he did had no consequences, because after all if there is no god, and no afterlife, take what you want, kill, rape, steal, who gives a damn, in the end the results are the same, you're dead.

Hitler was catholic. Do your research next time.

Of course, I'm just playing with semantics here. Let's just ignore the name and read what you had to say. Ok, I see. Do what you want, rape and kill and pillage because there's no god so who gives a damn about consequence. That sounds troubling. Now, what about this mindset: Rape, murder and pillage, who gives a damn about the consequences since we're executing god's will and we'll go to heaven anyways! This was the attitude that fueled the crusades of 1095-1291.

I agree with you when you say that a person who comes to the conclusion that he/she is beyond consequence is a terrible thing. What you need to understand is that very often, religion is used as a shield from consequence. Someone who chooses to do good out of a desire to be a good person is far more trustworthy than someone who does good to save themselves from hellfire. To the latter person, good can mean just about anything.

Quote:

you see, all people's beliefs aren't necessarily true, they are just beliefs, religion is a belief, albiet sometimes a little disturbing, (video on Jesus Camp).

So it shouldn't surprise you that there are people who have a problem with it.

Quote:

I choose to believe that all religions are trying to do what is right, and just because we don't all agree on what is god, doesn't mean that spirituality doesn't belong in our world,

Isn't it religion itself that says "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."?

Quote:

I believe its important, and a pillar of strength for many GOOD people.

A pillar, or a crutch?

Quote:

So, having said all that, I hope you guys realize that there are people out there who lean on "god" occasionally to help them to think through things, and to decide what is the right thing to do, sometimes this sort of action (prayer) prevents individuals from making horrific decisions.

I'm sure it does. Sometimes, it makes people gun down a doctor who performs abortions. Sometimes it makes people blow themselves up to kill a couple of jews and american soldiers. Sometimes it helps people make horrific desiscions.

Quote:

Just something to think about, a world without religion would be worse, not better..., in my opinion.

That thing on your doorstep? It's called a newspaper. Try cracking it open sometime. Take a good long look at all the good religion is doing for our world.

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine

Posted on: December 11, 2006 - 7:58am #6

Tilberian

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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

YOu now, if you don't beleive in heaven and hell, and any type of morality, you have no reason to govern your actions, for example, if a heaven and hell don't exist, thenyou have no reason not to go out and rape and pillage your way to the top.

This is an incredibly primitive version of morality that predates and ignores centuries of subsequent moral advancement, including the Reformation, the Enlightenment and modern secular liberal thought. It isn't even properly called morality in today's definition, since today we expect that people will carry their morality within themselves, using their conscience and reason to determine right and wrong. Instead, you would call on people to be animals, slavering after their most base desires, restrained only by fear of a superior force that will do worse to them than than can be justified by the profits of their crimes.

I reject your view of humanity and thank Spaghetti that secularism has rendered this kind of religious morality mostly obsolete.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown

Posted on: December 12, 2006 - 12:39am #7

KSMB

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ImmaculateDeception

ImmaculateDeception wrote:

Ok, I checked your profile, and you're not Canadian. I am born and raised in Canada and I am hereby forbid you from using 'eh' for your own purposes. Sorry, we're really strict about that kind of thing here. Americans say it wrong. They always say "ey" or "A" or something. Pisses me off.

Bring out the hockey stick, eh?

Posted on: December 12, 2006 - 12:43am #8

ImmaculateDeception

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KSMB

KSMB wrote:

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
Ok, I checked your profile, and you're not Canadian. I am born and raised in Canada and I am hereby forbid you from using 'eh' for your own purposes. Sorry, we're really strict about that kind of thing here. Americans say it wrong. They always say "ey" or "A" or something. Pisses me off.

Bring out the hockey stick, eh?

See? You said it wrong.

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine

Posted on: December 12, 2006 - 12:45am #9

KSMB

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ImmaculateDeception

ImmaculateDeception wrote:

KSMB wrote:
ImmaculateDeception wrote:
Ok, I checked your profile, and you're not Canadian. I am born and raised in Canada and I am hereby forbid you from using 'eh' for your own purposes. Sorry, we're really strict about that kind of thing here. Americans say it wrong. They always say "ey" or "A" or something. Pisses me off.

Bring out the hockey stick, eh?

See? You said it wrong.

BEEP! Wrong. Unfounded assumption. I am not American.

Posted on: December 12, 2006 - 12:47am #10

ImmaculateDeception

Posts: 280

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KSMB

KSMB wrote:

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
KSMB wrote:
ImmaculateDeception wrote:
Ok, I checked your profile, and you're not Canadian. I am born and raised in Canada and I am hereby forbid you from using 'eh' for your own purposes. Sorry, we're really strict about that kind of thing here. Americans say it wrong. They always say "ey" or "A" or something. Pisses me off.

Bring out the hockey stick, eh?

See? You said it wrong.

BEEP! Wrong. Unfounded assumption. I am not American.

Owned. Sorry, man. My bad.

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine

Posted on: December 28, 2006 - 6:45am #11

memesinconflict

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Response

We at Rational Responders find it extremely disturbing that you believe you need the threat of punishment by a deity in order to stop from engaging in "raping and pillaging."

Posted on: August 8, 2007 - 8:10am #12

The_Deception

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Ophios wrote: I like it how

Ophios wrote:

I like it how people like these seem to forget that PEOPLE MATTER TOO! Heaven forbid that you do good, for the good of OTHER PEOPLE. No, you do it for YOUR spirituality, or so god won't send YOU to hell. Jail apparently means nothing to this guy. I'm glad he and all people who have this narrow, selfish mind, have a god to think about. Because it's these people who do horrible things, and they do it becuase PEOPLE MEAN NOTHING TO THEM!

This is true, but it is a minority. It is common christian belief that good deeds will not affect your status in heaven, so generally being nice is done simply because we are nice people . I have done voluntary work for homeless charities not to boost my spiritual blessings or to get me front row seats in heaven but simply because I have felt it was the right thing to do. Understand that many many christians do right things for exactly the same reason you do. An inherent moral law.

Peace
Ben

To live is for Christ, to die is gain.