"There has never been a mutation that has added information!"
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Ok, so I'm debating evolution with some new world creationist on facebook, and he keeps on saying "There has never been a mutation that has added information", and that mutations are just a loss of information. He keeps asking me to name a mutation where information has been added. Can anyone help me?
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http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html
While the link posted is quite nice, I usually find it sufficient to simply ask what, exactly, is meant by "information" - then watch them hem and haw as they pour over the creationists sites they got this ridiculous argument from and come up with next to nothing.
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A guy who was a "collective concious" mystisist I used to work with at my last job(nuts btw). He used to claim that people would call every time he went outside for a ciggarette.
Anyway he also used this argument. Nutters are nutters no matter what they try to prop up.
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Yep. As long as they don't have a demonstrable meaning for 'information', their argument is just a bunch of hot air. Ask him to demonstrate exactly how to calculate the information decrease from a mutation.
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It seems to me the evolutions are always taking the defense side of the "issue" (I think the real issue is that creationists refuse to look at the obvious) of evolution, when it is the creationists who need to defend their claim that a god created life with evidence of a god.
Without any evidence of a god, the creationists have absolutely nothing to base their claim on.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Perhaps this is just me, but since both sides are making Positive claims, both sides need to provide evidence and support. Unless one side is simply denying the other side. They have to prove it wrong.
EDIT: By prove it wrong, I mean find another meaning for whatever evidence there is. It need not be active.
But I could be wrong.
Evolution is a fact.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
why does it have to add anything for it to evolve anyway? am i missing some fundamental law here? we have 2 less chromasones then chimps. they were merged from the pre-exsisting ones but none the less, they became fewer. that sounds like subtraction to me. or would you say that we are de-evolving? maybe im wrong, but well find out huh? being on this board is tough. . . lol
sorry about my spelling it is always poor and i dont give a damn!
I am the radical and variable to counter act on your alpha and omega! The One True Juggernaut, and. . . I WILL BASH AND CUT DOWN THOSE THAT CANNOT BE TAUGHT!!!
Well I think the idea is that if nothing is added then things can't get more complex.
I did a quick google search on genetic mutations and it seems christian sites like to talk about it for some reason.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/1/85
I didn't read all of that but it starts talking about a kind genetic insertion. In most cases genetic insertions are very very bad, much like deletions. If you think about it a bit it makes sense. Completely removing something or adding something will throw more things off then just one spot being changed to something else.
I would think there would be a disease of some sort that is a insertion. I don't really have time to look for one, but it would be one of the worse kind of genetic disorders. One of the sites I was reading talks about how insertions cause more damage.
Mutations create new protiens all the time. And many creationists believe that all things are recycled form parent to offspring, yet that is totally untrue since their are about 100 Nucleobases that you get from neither your mother or father. Knowing this, how could these new Nucleobases be recycled?
And to quote my good man AZpaul3 (from another forum):
"There are plenty of vectors that increase genetic materials: new gene space usage, transcription error in meiosis, viral transfer, symbiotic gene transfer, and other dozens of known vectors that increase the total number of nucleotide space available for new capabilities to be expressed. The creationist contention that"
Sweet jesus on a trailer hitch! Warn people about that avatar.
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it all depends on how in depth are they looking into "adding" if the floating cloud of miscilaneous electron expands a minute amount wouldnt that be a change without adding. . .
if two electron were to be compressed enough to be conjoined nuclearly, that would change the over-all with out adding. . . right?
I am the radical and variable to counter act on your alpha and omega! The One True Juggernaut, and. . . I WILL BASH AND CUT DOWN THOSE THAT CANNOT BE TAUGHT!!!
Hi-
I am brand new to this wonderful website. I was planning on getting to know the forum a bit before saying anything, but I felt the urge to respond.
The person who presented you with this argument is talking total bollocks and obviously has no background in microbiology.
Certainly, most genetic mutations, which can be nucleotide insertions, deletions, or changes (Guanine to Cytosine), are harmful or have little effect on an organism. However, over evolutionary time, improbable small changes (whether they be insertions, deletions, or changes) do occur and help the species survive. It is not up to you to find examples of specific research....but if you must....I'd look up information on a virus or bacteria. These living things reproduce so quickly and so often that you can observe evolution in a lab.
HIV is a wonderful example of something that we can actually observe evolving in our lifetime. That's what makes it so difficult to cure. It is constantly adding or changing its genetic code through various mutations so that human antibodies don't recognise the surface proteins that it should be attacking*. There are so many strains of HIV in the world - and the virus evolves even within one host (person). You can likely find out much more on the National Institutes of Health website.
A lot of things creationists say make me mad - but if they took a few biology classes, they could look at evolution...not just read the very convincing material...look at it.
By the way, my degree is in Biology, but I haven't used it in a while (I'm doing social work right now), so if someone here sees a glaring error in anything I've said, please correct me.
*I do not mean to speak teleologically here: the virus has no idea that its reproductive habits lead to changing surface proteins and increased survivability.
I recently had a debate on my forums with someone over this very subject. Here are a few points discussed:
gene evolution from gene duplication:
Source - Zhang, J. (2003). Evolution by gene duplication: An update. Trends in Ecology and Evolution, 18, 292-298.
Also, gene duplication has been a major player in the evolution of life on this planet. The new territory broken into by the sequencing of whole genomes has shed light upon how gene duplications have led to the emergence of Homo sapiens. This is noted by Britten (2005):
Source - Britten, R. (2005). The majority of human genes have regions repeated in other human genes. PNAS, 102, 5466-5470.
Human Endogenous Retroviruses which is part of our human genome. They constitute approximately 8% of our genome:
Source - International Human Genome Sequencing Consortium. (2001). Initial sequencing and analysis of the human genome. Nature, 409, 860–921
The "LTR retroposons" they refer to are the ERVs.
Source - Pačes, J., Pavlíček, A. and Pačes, V. (2002). HERVd: database of human endogenous retroviruses. Nucleic Acids Research, 30, 205-206.
Retroviruses work by using an enzyme (reverse transcriptase) to copy their RNA into a host DNA. These copied into the germline cells makes it so that they are passed on to offspring.
Source - Batzing, B. (2002). Microbiology. Pacific Grove: Wadsworth/Thomson Learning.
I was poking around through the latest edition of PNAS and found this relevant article:
Source - Britten, R. (2006). Almost all human genes resulted from ancient duplication. PNAS, 103, 19027-19032.
Hopefully you can pick out the useful information in that jumble.