Greydon Square attacks Brian Sapient (later pleas guilty)
Offline Brian, I realize that words alone aren't worth much, but since I have nothing else to offer you:
I just wanted to give you my deepest sympathies. I'm quite sure Greydon hurt more than just your head when he attacked you. I am very sorry to hear that this happened to you, as well as the other tragedy you mentioned but did not want to discuss.
Bad things like that shouldn't happen to good people like yourself. The fact that they do will always be the most compelling evidence, to me, that there is no magical force looking out for the best interests of the meek or altruistic. It's a bleak world, sometimes, which is why I think it's so important we show kindness, compassion and companionship to one another.
Second post from Kevin Brown on the horrific attack by Greydon Square on Brian Sapient:
Brian and a number of other people from the RRS were at a secular humanist convention in the Washington District of Columbia. Greydon Square was there to both promote his CD and simply be another atheistic representative.
Greydon is, as I understand it, bipolar - and was not taking his medication. He confronted Brian at the convention over a paranoid delusion he'd developed as a result, regarding the CDs that Brian and bought and was selling at the convention (feeling that he was somehow being taken advantage of, regardless of the fact that these were CDs Brian had already paid Greydon for), and psychotically attacked and attempted to beat Brian to death (nearly succeeding in the endeavor).
Brian explained this story to the best of his ability to as many people as possible on Stickam, just after getting out of the hospital. He looked like he'd been hit by a truck.
To say the least, Greydon's in prison right now, charges are pending.
Such a waste.
Brian,
I'm sure you've had other threats, but to have someone you trusted turn on you is reprehensible. I'm sure myself and countless others wish you a speedy recovery. The mental part, I realize, is the most difficult to overcome.
Holy shit.
I had no idea.
This sucks on so many levels.
Brian, I hope you're doing better.
On edit: This really bothers me because if Greydon wasn't on medication, he isn't entirely responsible for his actions. Yet I'm extremely concerned about Brian. No winners here. It just plain sucks.
I have a severe form of unipolar depression. I've never developed delusions or psychoses. I've never become violent toward others. However, my doctor just tried to change one of my medications (sans psychiatrist because there aren't any good ones in this county). I've been at the edge of a panic attack for about two weeks as a result. I think (hope?) I'm turning the corner. It got so bad that at several points I was like, "Please, I'll believe in anything, god...just fix me!" Of course, I don't believe in god, nor do I think I could make myself, but it was that bad. I've been an atheist for many years and haven't felt anything like this in quite some time.
Mental illness is awful, especially because of the stigma and loss of self-respect that often follow. For Greydon it's hard enough to be a black atheist. Once he's well enough to realize what he's done to Brian (and probably his own career), he's going to be in a lot of pain. I'm with Brian: Let's pray to Jake that Greydon gets the help he needs.
Again: Brian, I'm sorry this happened to you. Rest well. What a huge shock to you, both mentally and physically.
What Brian Sapient has to say about Greydon Square and his assault
Now that I know what happened, you can throw my best wishes, thoughts, and prayers to both Jake and the FSM in to the ring too. Best of luck with the recovery Sapient.
I've never understood why people start refusing to take meds, even if they are artists and their creativity gets affected. The downside in almost all situations I've come across (including ones that don't end up in situations like this) still don't seem worth it to me yet by the time the person gets back on the meds they've formed other rationalisations which make them not see the real affects that everyone around them sees of being off the meds. It makes it that much easier for them to convince themself next time to stop taking them etc and turns it in to a recurring circle. The sooner he gets back on them to realise what he's done the better.
I hadn't bought any Greydon CD's in the past because the music just isn't my style. It's something I probably wouldn't even listen to once, so I never bothered with the purchase. May as well make a donation via another form as I've done via the gold membership.
People have misunderstandings and conflicts, but there is no excuse for things degenerating to violence like that.
However, I wouldn't go so far as to use Greydon as the poster child for bipolar disorder and imply that all people suffering from such ailments are prone to violence.
I would point out that there's another serious problem looming on the horizon that is affecting people like him who have served in the armed forces: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Not that I have any clue what is happening with him, but PTSD is another issue that I wouldn't be surprised if it was a factor.
In any case, this is a sucky thing to have gone down. I hope it resolves itself in a way that everyone can live with.
Three years later and Sapient still has PTSD:
I still have PTSD from this. I'm too embarrassed to explain publicly how that PTSD affects me, because I know it's illogical and irrational. My fears are based solely on one person, but the PTSD remains.
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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chatroom on myspace, huh? that must be new. why is violence funny and how the hell is that related to your opinion of music?
How's the healing going, Brian?
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Never been to a myspace chatroom. But fwiw: his violence has nothing to do with the quality of his music.
Exactly the same as the message you quoted, swelling is gone although there are still a few small bumps as if I've got a small balls of blood that have hardened under my skin. I've got a feeling something will be there permanently. I don't have health insurance and am reluctant to get it checked. I have to wait to see how his prelim trial goes in a day or two. I'm reluctant to speak further so as not to disturb any of the process. I may end up having to do something in a civil court after his criminal case is complete.
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However, if I may gently suggest, if you're worried about having to deal with the long-term and recompense for same; get thee to some sort of free clinic or similar (or call about and fond someone who'll take payments) to get something comparative into a professional's record. It'll be worth it in the long run.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
My sincerest sympathies Brian. What some morons (the ones that think violence is not serious, not you Jill) fail to understand is that the damage is much more than physical and some of it will stay with you for life. After such a violent attack it would not be unusual to get symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder.
Also, the US health system sux. In Australia your medical expenses for something like this would have cost you very little.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
I think it's about time we get beyond this and start to fight religion. I got attacked with no provocation once at the pub. How ever I was fortunate enough that my office did not revolve around this for six months.... My colleagues nor my customers does not give a shit who's face is smashed and for that I am happy..
Kind of hard to move beyond it when the criminal charges are still being worked out. He pled guilty in court yesterday, I think under the assumption that he would simply receive probation and wouldn't have to return to D.C. He accepted the guilty plea with the knowledge that the prosecution would recommend probation and coverage of $3,400 in hospital bills for me, and upon hearing the final outcome from the judge she threw a loop at him. Apparently he's got outstanding issues. Something about "sale or distribution of a weapon" in L.A., and the issue from Arizona last year still not resolved. There is still a warrant for his arrest in Tempe, AZ for failure to pay a bond, driving on a suspended license, no registration for his vehicle, and something else related. He goes back to D.C. at the end of August for his sentencing on this case, at which point the judge stated that he needs to have resolved his other issues or he will serve jail time for this crime. We'll see what happens.
I know there were a few people saying they were withholding "judgment" on this matter until the trial. For those people, here is what you need to know... "guilty."
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I know people in AZ who can state with reasonable certainty that most of his charges there stem from "going outside while black" Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio is in hot water with the FBI for his greater than normal use of racial profiling, and his arm stretches long in most of the state. Having said that, I can understand why he's being dealt with in a somewhat harsher manner.
I wish you luck and a speedy and fair resolving of this case.
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Speaking as someone from the outside looking in, this incident rather upset me (not as much as it did you, obviously). I sincerely hope there is no permanent physical damage, Brian.
I'm furious with Greydon Square, even though his bipolar condition is at least partially to blame. He did stop the medication on purpose. I've been tempted to permanently delete his music.
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I thought that way too, but he already has the money from my purchase of his music, and frankly his music is really good. I really hope Greydon gets the help he needs.
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Shit...I feel like I have PTSD from this. I can't get the image of running around the corner and seeing Brian getting up and having his face almost completely disfigured out of my head. I have dreams about it and relive that moment almost every day. Any time somebody mentions Greydon or I see a picture of him, I am completely overwhelmed by the emotion that I felt right then. I was scared, of course, but it also borders on the most intense rage I've ever felt. I'll have a case of the "If onlys..." for the next few years, I imagine.
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Ouch, and god forgets nothing , it can't .... so sorry ....
Has that rapper nut even expressed an apology ?
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Kelly talks almost every day about how she wishes she was in the room the moment it happened, and how much she would've wanted to pummel him with objects she saw on the floor (like the lamp that got knocked over). She DOES have PTSD from it. I also have much less interest in being around people. I figure if this can happen to me when I'm with someone who I've done so much for, who knows what could happen when I'm with people who I am a mere acquaintance with.
As for the music... I haven't deleted any of his music, although we can't stand to listen to him anymore. We smashed a few of his cd's which was therapeutic for about 2 minutes.
And as to my "recovery" it's actually felt a tad better in the last few days. We'll see.
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He wrote an apology in public on his blog, but my sources tell me he didn't mean it and only said it because he was losing gigs. I think his view of the situation is still (and will likely continue to be) too delusional to understand just how wrong he was and how despicable his actions were.
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I love being right.
Total, unreformable sociopath. Whatever Greydon's 'condition' may be, clearly it's untreatable, because he's clearly unwilling at all to have himself be treated.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
With all due respect, it's not cool being right about something like this. I used to have an uncle who was even more violently bipolar manic depressive than this guy. Sometimes only severe trauma would stop him from hurting, attempting to kill or maim someone else. Last time he did anything, he tried to assault one of my sisters even though she had a hot oil filled cast iron skillet close at hand. some 6 months after, he left the rehab he had committed himself to and then apparently committed suicide. 11 years later, we still can't find his body.
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That's was what I guessing Sapient.
Yes Kay, Kevin, people are sometimes really sick, and not always obviously ....
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Kevin is right for all the wrong reasons; I'd call it pessimistic bias.
Moreover, it sucks that Brian and Kelly would even have to be in the same room with him - even if it's a court room.
My condolences to both of you.
I can't believe how much this sucks.
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I'd call it 'learning from history'. Compare the track record of Eric Harris to that of our good friend Greydon; they're remarkably similar.
(...You could be right, though. I do tend to lean towards the pessimistic side when it comes to the actions of people).
...And why we continue tolerating such individuals is beyond me. Locking them up / medicating them is bizarre to me. Lock them up... so they can watch TV and get into inmate fistfights / cause prison riots on someone else's dime? Medicate them so that they can randomly snap when their meds wear-off or when they arbitrarily decide to stop taking them?
I wasn't trying to be smug. I'm trying to point-out that what I'm saying is being constantly affirmed (regarding Greydon's behavior patterns)... and apparently, we're too attached to the primitive notion that life is sacred to actually do anything to prevent him from causing further misery.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I'm not condoning what he did, surprisingly enough. I am of the mind, from personal experience mind you, that yes, people like him should be locked up, put in straightjackets, medicated and kept away from the more productive people of the world. What I neglected to say is that I for one am relieved, not glad, that this particular uncle of mine isn't alive and kicking, because he had hinted in the past that he had killed someone. No details, just that he had killed someone. I will repeat what I said earlier in a different manner; It's not nice to be happy about being right about such deviant behavior. I'll concede that you are right, but I don't agree with your attitude about being right. That's all.
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Oh, agreed.
This is why I don't often claim to be a nice person.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I'd go further and say that it is right that it is not nice to be happy about being right about such deviant behaviour. In fact I ain't even happy that it is right that it is not nice to be happy about being right abut such deviant behaviour. But then again, it is of course only right that I am not happy that it is right that it is not nice to be happy about being right about such deviant behaviour, so that's ok with me, too.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
From your description, I imagine you do. I think it's easier to be the one who takes the beating than to feel that powerlessness. I've been both, and I'd take the beating for sure.
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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70aL1aBrqgU I think this says it all really.
Brian, sorry to hear about what happened, hope you're feeling 100% soon. My sympathies to you and Kelly.
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
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What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
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It looks like someone who thinks what happened is funny. I had posted "asshat" in response but it disappeared.
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I have to second that sentiment. It's about as comparable to the subject matter as 9/11 is to the genocide in Sudan.
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I'm sure you're aware that most people with bipolar and other affective disorders are not dangerous. Greydon Square isn't much of a poster boy for people who are already stigmatized in this society. It's another reason I'm so furious.
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I am. Which is why I continue forward with my hypothesis that Greydon is a sociopath.
Also: I did not mean to insinuate I think all bipolar people should be euthanized. Simply those that prove to be a dangerous menace to the people around them.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
hmmmm funny, I posted this url http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-NS1XIjllc so I would hope that my post wasn't edited
[mod edit: Making light of this situation will not be tolerated. Welcome to IP banning. Yes originally it was edited to a video of someone going to jail.]
I realize it's been a while since the incident, but I would still like to say to Brian that I hope that you've fully recovered from this. I know the mental and trust aspects can take much longer to heal though.
I originally wasn't going to post in this thread, because I would have been repeating everyone else's sentiments. However the thread hung around the front page, and I decided to see if there was any update to the situation. Instead what I found really pissed me off. There is a level of ignorance by some in this thread I would expect to be reserved for the fundies of this forum, with respect to people who suffer from mental illness. It seems that in the rush to run to Brian's defense that there are those that want to through the baby out with the bathwater. I.e. where Greydon is concerned. Now before anyone accuses me of justifying his actions I DON"T, it was a horrible thing to do, especially to perhaps your greatest ally. That said, anyone who wants to make comments about how Greydon, and people like him need to be locked up for long periods of time, or just plain disposed of, really need to take a step back and use the rationallity they use on most other issues here.
Let me relate this to a little story about me. One that I NEVER thought I would type out on an internet forum. One that I hope future employers don't Google, that's for Damn sure!
About 10 years ago (I was 20 or 21) I was having a very rough time of things mentally, emotionally, financially, you name it. I had just gone through about four traumatic experiences in the space of a couple months. I was depressed as hell, felt like the world was out to get me etc. etc. So a friend finally convinced me to go to a free clinic to get medicated. Long story short the first drug seemed to do nothing, so a second was added, and that combo was making me very short tempered. A couple of weeks later I was out driving around in my 71 240z, and decided to pull in and get some gas. As I'm pulling in there is a certifiable hillbilly pulling in the other way towards the last pump. I was much closer so I start to pull in to the pump. Meanwhile this dude decides he is going to gun it Nascar pit-stop style sliding and laying rubber, into position next to the pump, nearly creaming my beautiful classic car. What I did next I'm not proud of. Maybe I had the right at that point to give this idiot a peice of my mind, but instead I got out of my car and beat this guy unmercifully. I even took the gas pump handle out of his hand and pistol-whipped him more times than I can remember. This is hard to type now that I'm remembering it in detail. The guy pleaded with me early on and it just made me go off worse, in hindsight he probably thought I might kill him, over a F___king gas pump!. When the guy wasn't responding anymore, I got in my car and drove to a friends house to lay low. I checked on the guy through the grapevine, and he was relatively ok considering. Now that I'm sickened by recounting that (minus the real gory details even) I'll get to why I felt the need to post it.
Fast forward ten years, and let's assess the situation. I was never punished for the incident. By some accounts here I should have been given the chair. If that attitude has any merrit, I should still be a violent sociopath with no redeeming qualities right? Well I haven't been in a physical altercation in about 8 years, live my life so as not to hurt others physically or emotionally. In all respects I think I am a productive member of society with above average morals. As a matter of fact I am working hard at getting involved with a couple of causes to try and make a small difference in the world, which is more than most people do.
I think people with mental disorders like being bipolar go through a particularly rough time in their late teens / early 20s. Most then mature, and grow emotionally and become better people. Greydon inparticular went through hell as a child that most of us suburban kids shouldn't even pretend to understand. He was rased as an orphan in the most violent neighborhood in the country. Anyone think that ther'es much of a chance that something as profound as that would not come back to haunt him at some point? Yet when he was helping us by giving us some very theraputic music for us to listen to, and furthering the Atheist cause while admiting he was still that badass from Compton,... nobody objected. When he mentioned violence in his music I didn't see any 'greydon is too violent' threads. Now that the hardly surprising consequenses of his rough beginnings manifests itself in an ugly way, now lets throw him out like a peice of useless garbage. Not "let's hope he gets help", ...no F___ him! Again let me restate that I don't condone his actions in any way shape or form, cause I know somebody is going to claim I'm doing just that.
My point is that I, and countless others with mental disorders do stuff early on that we aren't proud of, then mature and become productive members of society. There's no reason Greydon can't do the same if he faces his issues. He has allot of baggage to work through, but that doesn't mean he won't come through fine in the end. It also doesn't mean that he won't end up on America's Most Wanted, but that's not for anyone here to decide!
I feel like some people owe Greydon and others on this site with mental disorders, a sincere apology. Obviously I'm only reffering to the people in this thread that made such remarks, not everyone else.
Brian, just so you know I understand this happened to YOU, not me or anyone else, so I'm not implying you should forgive. I think you should deal with this as you see fit. Personally I hope that you at least see that what I'm saying here has some truth to it, but what you do with that info is your business. Again I didn't go back and read the entire thread but I hope you've recovered well from this.
/end rant!
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
Although I similarly realize this topic is pretty much dead, I would like to say that, accordin to the DSM-IV, although violence is not associated with Bipolar Disorder, episodes are sometimes accompanied by psychotic features.
Still atrocious, though.
Wow, I was considering joining this forum, but when I see a skeptical forum that has a mod making such a sad ad hominin attack on someone they have trouble with, that makes my decision very easy.
So, physical violence coupled with a history of mental issues doesn't warrent calling someone a sociopath? Whatever, we didn't want you here anyway.
Of course not. That's being honest about things.
Who wants honesty when we can all sit & eat popsicles & pat ourselves on the back all day instead?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Who gives a shit.
he does?
Man...I quiet down in the community for a few years, and look at what happens?
Brian, I know this is FOREVER late and I'm sure you already are back to your striking good looks
But I'm so sorry that you had to go through a painful recovery, and from someone you thought of as friend, too.
It's interesting that some of us think Atheists are somehow more moral, or should be held to higher standards than, non-athesists. First and foremost, Atheism is not a "Movement" or a "Religion" and therefore, there is no dogma associated with Atheism. Those who would assign such rules to it are just as misguided as the Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc...The fact is that Assholes come in every flavor, dogma, religion, race, sex and nationality. If Greydon Square is an asshole then it is no fault of his belief system. Musicians, like myself, are admittedly the biggest assholes of them all. Personally, I like his voice - his themes - his intelligence (which there is much too little of in the world)...and while I feel awful about the situation that happened, that he felt the need to do what he did....I also understand what it's like to be discounted as an intelligent human being. Maybe this is all it was about. Regardless, I think it's fantastic that he is singing about the bullshit...let us come to understand the word spoken from the heavens...let us hear the music meant to inspire life...let us not judge one another as we are all slopped from the same cesspool of life. Carry on Greydon! Carry On!!
This is way fucked man. I only joined this site because I heard Greydon's music and thought it was brilliant, I'm listening to it now. I thought his life story was inspiring and felt good about humanity that someone could come out from such a closed ended life and become, what seemed to be, a decent free-thinking individual.
So I signed up to this site and began searching for articles with him in.
I am now depressed. I don't know what to do or think.
Firstly, I would like to express my shock and disgust regarding such a terrible attack and also hope that you (Mr. Sapient) are, or at least will be ok.
I have this urge to somehow try to defend Greydon, even though there is clearly not much basis for his defense. I just feel like I need to make excuses for him, perhaps because I don't want to connect his actions with his music. Also, I keep thinking how I felt about him before I read about all this. Almost like I felt I knew him with the little information I had and the Greydon I'm listening to now isn't the same person as the one who committed such an act.
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I feel the same way being bi-polar myself. But the reason you see two different people is exactly why it's called bi-polar. And while the things we BPs do when we go on a rage cannot be excused away, it can be explained. I always have taken my meds - and that has been for over 20 years now. But I still get wickedly riled at times because IT controls me...I cannot control it. I think this is what happened to Greydon Square. I believe this fully. I have talked t him and he is gentle. But the proverbial "turning of the screw" is so close at hand.
I wish the best for both parties. Brian, you will heal. Greydon never will. And the latter is the most heartbreaking for me. Maybe because I can relate to it...I don't know. Please let's don't bash the man. He changes minds with his music.
I think what ever happened between Greydon, and Brian, is between Greydon and Brian. I would not distance myself from either person if either one has never brought negativity to me. Greydon Square is talented and he has a tough background, similar to mine. Fights happen and are usually personal between the two individuals. The fact remains that the fight is insignificant to the cause we're all here for. I am not going to alienate Greydon Square, because he still speaks on subjects I agree with and I listen to his music in my car very loud so everyone around me can hear it too. I think Greydon will be paying for what he did if found at fault, however from personal experience a fight someone started with me, and ended with only me standing, resulted in me going to jail. Doesnt matter if I was defending myself.
If he would have been taking his meds, maybe this would have never happened.
Sorry...
Thank you, your help maybe this is the best now
I still have PTSD from this. I'm too embarrassed to explain publicly how that PTSD affects me, because I know it's illogical and irrational. My fears are based solely on one person, but the PTSD remains.
Flash Kellish posted this on facebook a few days ago, it reminded me...
The example isn't perfect because Greydon never gave a genuine apology. But I do think about it every day. Sometimes I think about it for 30 minutes of a day. In fact, he mentions me in a song on the new Syqnys album. The song is called "Hurt You." He refers to hurting me in the song. Seemingly proud of it. I don't even need to tell you what I think about that. But I did have to tell my son. We were listening to the Syqnys album in the car. I do still support Syqnys, Proclaim and other atheist rappers. I will not support any atheist rappers who are violent. At one point I thought his references to violence were artistic and metaphorical, however I was just a number. I've gotten more than one story back to me about how he has bragged about hurting me well after the fact.
I had to explain the details of the assault to my son because he asked about them. He asked many questions about it. I am always honest with my son, however I do try to keep him happy and content. I'm not sure what sorts of affects I have now handed down to him. He didn't seem upset, but I don't want to cause him unnecessary stress. I hope that didn't fuck him up. The kid is a straight A student, I try to just keep doing what I've been doing and honesty when he asks has always been part of that. But should I be shielding him from the occasional horrific story? I have more.
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As you know, I'm new here. However, just by reading your posts and from reading what others say, I know you are a good person and it's unfortunate that this had to happen to you.
You have my genuine sympathy, I also had to deal with PTSD.
IMO the best way to deal with it is talking to a professional, if you're not already doing that.
It may take time but eventually you'll overcome this.
I wish you and your family all the best and lots of happiness!
I'm not but I've been thinking about it, and your assessment makes me consider it more. I probably should have someone I talk to, I don't have a very normal life.
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