Oh, they probably are. Don't feel too bad for them though; some of us are being dumped into the lake of fire because God withheld compelling evidence of his existence from us, and as a result we didn't believe in him.

What a joker, eh?

This is the response for when someone doubts the faith because it seems Gawd is unjust.

But then they tell us, we need money for missionaries to send around the world and save those who don't know Christ. Economics trumps everything. So the answer will change depending on this eternal truth only.

 

In the Biblical view, they were not created in a way that they would never hear about him.  They are living out choices that were made by their ancestors.  It is not the Creators responsibility to come down and correct every mistake that we make.  He has given us that option.  The judge of all the Earth will do what is right.  The ancestors will have a greater degree of accountability, but nowhere does the Bible indicate they, i.e. those living now, will ultimately go the heaven.  If they hear the message of salvation and some receive it, it is better than if the message is never heard and they all are lost.  Those who reject it are justly held to higher degree of accountability.

Knowledge of God is not “born into us”.  It says, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: “  Rom 1:20 
 

I'm so glad we're letting unverified posts through more often these days.  Every once in a while, it's fun to get out the old "Whippin' Rod of Reason" and lay down a few strap marks.

In the Biblical view, you say?  Which biblical view?  This is truly puzzling, because it's logically impossible.  Ten years after your supposed messiah supposedly rose from the dead, approximately 9/10's of the habitable land on the planet was not even remotely able to hear about your ridiculous little story.  You can't say it wasn't created that way because, well, God created it, didn't he?  Did he mess up?  Or did he mean for it to be that way?

So, when was the cutoff date for when people "should" have heard about Jesus?  A hundred years?  That was, what... 130 CE?  Not much in the way of global commerce then.  What about 500 years?  Marco Polo still hadn't visited the far east.  What about 1000 years?  Nope.  Still, Marco Polo wasn't born.  There was a great big continent called Asia.  Oh, and what about those poor Native Americans?  They had to wait until almost 1500 years later to hear about your all powerful lord and savior.

Are you blaming the Native Americans for choices they made when their ancestors crossed the Bering Strait... thousands of years before there was such a thing as a Hebrew?

Why, yes!  You are!

You, my friend, have some real problems with that thinking cap of yours.

Oh, really?

What was it you called him?  Creator?  So... um... he.... um... what's that word... "created" us.  And he knows everything, right?  Everything about everything?  So, he um... made us exactly how he wanted us to be made, right?

If he made us exactly how he wanted us made, then everything we've done is exactly what he wanted because he knows everything, right?  Since he can do anything he wants, if he created us so that we wouldn't do what he told us to do, then that's what he wanted.  He chose to make us that way, right?  If not, then he screwed up, or is insane.

All Hail the Judge of All the Earth!!  God bless those red skinned savages.  If they didn't like the message mounted on the end of the Europeans' swords, it's their own fault for not having been born European!  God is merciful and just.  Allah be praised.

Oh... wait... you're talking about Yahweh, or Jesus, right?  I forgot, because, you know... that Allah dude promises some nasty shit if you don't believe in him.

So, god punished millions of Native Americans... in hell... the worst possible punishment imaginable... because their ancestors, who also had never heard of Jesus because, well... it was thousands of years ago... did something that he didn't like. That punishment is good, because God made us exactly the way he wanted, and we (we who? ) made a choice  (which choice?  The apple?) that was exactly the choice that God knew we would make a trillion trillion years before he made earth... and so little red skinned babies are in hell, burning and screaming in agony, and in a trillion trillion years, they'll still be there, their little fingers being burned to the bone, over and over, their nerve endings miraculously functioning perfectly at every single second of their existence.  Their whole body is on fire... their hearts and lungs are filled with fire hotter than anything man can imagine.  Searing, blinding, awful pain.

And god loves you.

Blow it out your ass.

You are inexcusably ignorant, and a bigot.

Well thank you for that warm welcome.  It was better than I expected from a hyper religious forum like this one.  The "Whippin' Rod of Reason" must be part of my cure huh?  (Believe in God?  We can fix that.)  I’m glad it wasn’t the “water board of truth”.  It’s not the drowning sensation that gets me; it’s being punched in the stomach when I’m laying flat on my back and can’t breathe.  What could turn your guts inside out more than that?  Ok kidding off.  No really, I’m just glad I started this in the KEWK forum.  Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name.  Oops, that was supposed to be your line wasn’t it? 

Accordig to what the Bible actually says.  I’m pretty certain it is not practical to discuss the veracity of scripture here.  The OP (Leeboy) asked a legitimate question and I was trying to give him an answer.  Now that I think about it though, if he really wanted or expected a biblical answer, why did he post it here and not on a Bible oriented board?  Maybe he is trying to justify his unbelief or he is more interested in Klondike Bars than salvation.

It is an interesting way you put that.  He created us so that we could choose to do what He told us, or not to do it.    We have the ability to choose as Adam did.  He did not make us so that we had to make the wrong choice.  Since He knows everything, He knew which way we would go.  We have accountability for our choice but He has responsibility as our creator.   Why create if He is just going to destroy it?  But we have gone against His word so how can we be reconciled with Him?  The wages of sin is death.  So His plan is that He would die in our place and offer us a second chance so to speak.  In effect to be born again. 

Things like God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and man’s free will are kind of a Gordian knot to theologians.  I have to keep things simple so I fall back to events like the one recorded in Genesis 18.  “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”  If the answer is ‘no’ then most likely we’re all screwed and have no hope.  Same thing if evolution is true.  The only hope for us is that God exists and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

I say the original question about those who die having never heard the Gospel is a good one because I asked a similar one the first time I heard the message of Salvation.  It’s not just Eskimos and remote people of the earth that aren’t reached.  I was 18, living in California, before anybody explained it to me.  Even my best friend, who went to church all the time, when I asked him if I was going hell just said “YES”.  That was the only time we talked about religion.  So I asked, “If the message of salvation is true i.e. there is a god in heaven, men have rebelled and broken his laws, Christ died in our place and that by believing in Him we could be forgiven and receive eternal life and/or/but we go to hell for eternity if for any reason we don’t, if that is true and god also has billions of angels, why doesn’t he send them to tell everybody?”  The answer was that angels are not capable of giving first hand testimony of God’s grace because they have never sinned.

Yes and “He who made kittens, made snakes in the grass”.  Your difficulty believing God’s word is not with me.  I’m not God’s counselor.  I didn’t write the Bible, He did.  So your comment is not directed at me but Him.  That’s not what I consider a rational response. 
I was raised in a truly non-religious home.  Religion of any sort was never discussed.  So the only lens through which I could view the world was the one imposed in the public school i.e. evolution, which I had absolutely discarded as viable, cohesive world view long before ever hearing about Jesus Christ for reasons I will perhaps give later.  When the offer to accept God’s message was given to me, I thought if evolution is by any chance true, and I pray this little prayer with these guys that I had never met before, nor seen since, nothing is of course going to happen and the whole universe will eventually die its cold death and that will be that.  But if they are right and salvation is absolutely free because Christ took the whole penalty for my sin, I’d be a fool not to give it a try.  (I don’t remember if they mentioned anything about repentance, if they did, I didn’t pick up on it.  It was only about a 30 minute conversation and it was all new to me except the part about Adam and Eve, I had heard that story before. )  The result was that shortly after that (about an hour later) God confirmed His word in a way, that to me was real at the time.  It took about three more years to figure out the repentance part, but God is faithful, full of grace and truth and will do what is right whether we can wrap our little finite minds around it or not.

Now that I have mentioned water boarding, I suppose that will come next.
 

Ok so, they made the trek oh 10,000 years ago, or 8000 years before christ....so it's their ancestors fault? Because they decided to move to the isolated world 8000 years before christ and 6000 years before the jews even hear of god?? That's a retarded really, their ancestors are going to be more punished for something they did, thousands and thousands of years before ANYONE would hear of god? Oh boy what a great god, seems kinda retarded to me but hey god is man's creation we can't expect god to make perfect decisions when his creators are imperfect.

I'm sure it was a pleasure.I wonder,why do you call it a religious forum? Unless atheism became a religion in the last 10hours while I wasn't looking.

So are you saying god knows if we will go to hell when we are born and creates some of us for that purpose? You say we have the choice to choice to not do what he told us, but you forget that then he will punish us eternally.

Wait..so if evolution is true the world is doomed, as opposed to if there is a god who will initiate armageddon and destroy the world? Please explain. With evolution, we have hope of colonising other planets, but with god the human race will be destroyed.

 

You say god wrote the bible.Most of the christians I have seen here say that man wrote it under inspiration,that is why there are errors,mistranslations etc. Are you saying it is perfect?

Because you are a qualified biologist who can with impunity say that evolution is false right? I have no doubt you have dedicated your life to science of all kinds and are therefore the ultiamate authority on whether evolution is true.

/sarcasm

Oh my.This is too good. Could it be another instance of Pascal's Wager..why yes!Plus Argument from personal experience!

You should have said: If there was any chance that this god was the right one, I'd still be a fool to pick it,since I had even more chance of picking the wrong one.

Pascal’s Wager

Premises: You have everything to gain by believing, and everything to lose by not. So why not believe?/What if you’re wrong?

 

Problem: What if you’re wrong and allah is the true god? Pascal never indicated which god we should believe in. With thousands of them out there, they chances are choosing the right one are slim. If you are a christian and allah is the right choice, you’re going to have a small problem after death. Isn’t it more logical to choose none? It also assumes that god isn’t going to mind you just believing because you don’t want to go to hell, and doesn’t want true followers.

 Argument from personal experience.

 

Premises: I know god’s real because I’ve felt him! I’ve seen miracles! How do you explain that?

 

Problem: I know god’s not real because he told me so! See, just you because you say something, don’t make it so. Christians will usually resort to the personal experience argument when all other arguments have dried up, because it is impossible to prove or disprove.  The thing is, many people have had the personal experience of seeing Elvis, getting abducted by aliens, and having the CIA secretly spy on them. Shall we now afford all these claims complete credibility?

As a former Christian, I’ve had personal experiences. However, when you remove the blind faith and indoctrination, you realize they are the product of highly emotional settings, usually combined with peer pressure. Everyone around me is talking in tongues! I better do something. The mind’s capability for imagination is vast, and if you want something to be badly enough, you will likely experience it.

That which can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

RtB, you are contradicting every Christian missionary that ever existed. They all tell the heathens they are all lost souls in need of Jesus as Savior and the only way to be saved is believing in him and confessing him as lord. They all claim that every person that accepts the Gospel as truth is saved.

So now, you change the story when someone actually wants to understand rationally how Christian theology works. So, all you are saying is that all missionaries really accomplish is to send some people to hell, for hearing the gospel and rejecting it as BS.

So basically missionary lies about true Christian theology to get people to convert. They are sadistic bastards that will enjoy seeing those who reject their message thrown into the external torture of hell by a loving Gawd.

 

 

Latincanuck inquired about the sin and the fate of the ancestors of the said Eskimos.  Answer: In the year B.C. 2347 (the approximate year, see my previous post) eight people stepped off the ark. World population=8. Those 8 people had pretty good knowledge about the reality of creation and their creator. Genesis 9 details a covenant that He made with them. In Luke 12:48 the Lord teaches that to whom much is given shall much be required. Therefore those men, who participated in the rebellion of Genesis 11 (possibly the first generation after the flood) where God confounded their language, are held to more accountability than subsequent generations who split off and began to replenish the Earth as commanded in 9:1. This is the very thing that Paul speaks about in the verses following the one I referenced above. 

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. The point is that when they knew God they glorified Him not as God. If that is the case, is God unjust to not include them in the future kingdom that He will establish? It was not He that excluded them. They excluded themselves. People were saved then exactly as they are now, by hearing the world of the Lord and keeping it, believing it, obeying it. Concerning their offspring which neither know the Lord, nor have heard His word, Paul goes on to explain but I will leave it there. The Judge of all the earth will do what is right.

 

The bible can't be used as evidence in itself (in relation to the age of the earth or anything else). It is just a book, there is no proof other than in the bible itself (circular argumentation) that it was devinely inspired. If you use books as proof you can prove anything. There are lots of books out there.

I really can't be bothered going into biblical debate yet again at the moment, look up some of Rook's articles.

"Written by humans you say?  What descendent of an animal could ever conceive of such a thing as the Bible?  How did he progress from hunter/food gather to invent language at all, let alone words like repentance, forgiveness, sacrifice, atonement, propitiation?  Where would such concepts enter his mental processes?  There is only one answer – THEY DIDN’T.  They came by revelation from our creator."

You haven't visited the fiction section lately, have you. Humans are very inventive. What descendent of an animal could? Humans (who actually are still animals by the way). Give me a few months and I could come up with something as inventive, crazy and badly written as the bible. Really, if god wrote it I would have thought he would have done a better job.

There is a very good video available called "the history of English" you should watch it, it does not deal with where language come from (there are plenty of books about that), but it does show where English came from and how it EVOLVED.

 

 

ronin-dog wrote:

Thanks for your concern.  I suppose that for my purposes only two facts about evolution were relevant.  That we supposedly evolved from animals and that ultimately, we came from nothing and would eventually return to the same state.  Those two assumptions I found were neither viable nor cohesive to the world and my life as I perceived them by the time I was a freshman in high school.  As a kid, I did not particularly enjoy books, sports or television, so besides the few hobbies and activities I did like, I spent a lot of time thinking.  When I thought about us evolving from animals and about human behavior it seemed we are completely unrelated.  Once you look below the surface of human behavior (which at times does appear to be animalistic) the thoughts and intents of the human heart are not at all like anything animals are remotely capable of.  On the negative side there are things like pride, jealously, deceitfulness and on the other side there is love, compassion and willingness to sacrifice.  While all of these are inconsistent with evolution, sacrifice totally blows it away on both of my two facts. 

A recent example of the very act I thought about is the man Michael A. Monsoor.  A Navy Seal who absorbed the blast of grenade with his own body to save the lives of his team mates when he could have jumped clear and saved his own life.  That is in cohesive with evolution.  If you have a vision for that behavior from the lens of evolution, I’d like to see it.  Be sure to include both its origin and destination.  That is to say, regardless of his personal beliefs, how could Michael ultimately benefit from his sacrifice?  That is an extreme and uncommon example, but the concept of sacrifice is main stream in human society and you only have to give it a few minutes thought to come up numerous examples of your own.  My conclusion was that the majority of people live their lives as though there was in fact a final restitution for things that happen in the here and now, even though most of them lack the certainty of it.  That does not prove that there is such restitution, it only shows that evolution is not viable as a world view. 

Ecclesiastes 11:1  Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.

I'm getting way behind.  I am sorry for that but this is about as fast as I can go.  It would be nice to get the email for verification. 

I suggest that you look into evolution again, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence in favour of it. It is not as simplistic as it seems to have been introduced to you as being.

That we came from nothing and will return to it has nothing to do with evolution. It is a fact that our bodies are made of matter which was inanimate and will be inanimate again when we die. This is regardless of whether you believe we have a soul or not, many christians believe in evolution but still believe in the soul.

That we evolved from animals: by definition we are animals, but I know (hope) that is not what you mean. The physical evidence if you look into it is not rationally deniable. However I think you are talking more about behaviour. If you watch enough animal behaviour (to see enough you may have to watch some documantaries) you will see a lot of "human" traits including pride, jealousy and deceitfulness, love, compassion and sacrifice (mother protecting young against predators etc).

As far as throwing yourself on a grenade... We are a group animal, adults in groups/packs/tribes will often risk their life against bad odds to protect the group (the gene pool). Of course in nature we don't have anything as definate as grenades in ensuring death, but you have to extrapolate.

A lot of human behaviour has already been expained in evolutionary terms, but it has also been shown that we are such a complex animal that not all of our behaviour can be described as such. I believe that our brain is such a complex system that it only takes small changes in the "wiring" (which could even be developmental rather than genetic) to give a vast difference in our behaviour.

Once again, even though I don't believe in God, there are many who do believe in God who still believe in evolution.

In reading your other posts you seem to have some confusion that needs some slight correction. You appear to be reading in between the lines in a KJV version of the Bible in Psalm 22:16. In the Hebrew Bible version it says in verse 17 equivalent to your verse 16 "17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet." Hmm, they don't seem to support crucifixion here. In my Catholic Version of Douay-Rheims it is actually in Psalm 21:17, "17 For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet." Neither has support for your poorly translated KJV version. Perhaps the translators have misled you here. 

As to Isaiah 53, you are misinterpreting Jesus to be the suffering servant where it is very clear it is Israel, even in my PTL KJV Bible. See Isaiah 49:3 in KJV, "And said unto me, Thou art my servant O Israel, in whom I will be glorified." Isaiah 50 and 52:13 to 53:12 details this suffering as a continuation of Isaiah's comments. Here I side with the Jews that this is not about Jesus but is about them as a people.

As the KJV is a poor translation of the Bible this perhaps is what led you astray into believing Jesus was predicted to suffer based on these Bible verses. If you but open your mind to the reality of the actual words you may see where your errors are located. Generally the JPS version of the Hebrew Bible also known as the Masoretic Text is more accurate. Or the Catholic-Douay-Rheims especially for NT.

Links:JPS Hebrew Bible in English- http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible- http://www.drbo.org/

Hope this helps you gain knowledge that may help correct your errors. As to the 4 contradictory accounts of the Roman execution of Jesus I'll save that for another day.

But let's continue for now (till I get boerd of this).

You obviusly don't understand what a religion is. Let's go to the Oxford English Dictionary:

1) the belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp. in a personal God or gods entitled to obedience and worship

2) the expression of this in worship

3) a particular system of faith and worship

4) life under monastic vows (the way of religion)

Atheism is not a religion, it simply means individuals who don't believe in gods.

 “The Cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be” is not the default belief of evolutionists. They believe in evolution because of the countless evidence in favour of it. As I already stated, many religious folk believe in evolution as well.

An agnositc is someone who is undecided because they don't feel they have enough evidence, not because they are ignorant. Generally they have realised that religion is false but are undecided about god, as you said we don't know everything.

Evolution is not a religion, it is a science. ...sigh... people like you who refuse to actually think outside of their religious dogma are very difficult to deal with. I am afraid it is you who are the ignoramus, ignoring thousands of years of actual knowledge and progress.

There is no great science conspiracy. People are more likely to sell out their research for blind religious belief than anything else.

"Heb 1:1  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Either that statement is true or it is not.  That is all that matters."
It is not true.

 

There is an anecdotal tale of a first encounter between a Christian missionary and a band of Inuit people...

It seems that after the young fellow delivered his good news, much to his chagrin, the native folk got all excited and happy about the possibility of going someplace WARM...

 

LC >;-}>

 

.Argument from ignorance

   Premises: Atheism is not a logical position to hold, because to say you know there is no god, you would have to be all-present and knowing. You would have to be god.

 

Problem: There are several flaws here. Firstly, not many atheists will claim to know beyond a doubt there is no god. It is impossible to prove a negative. They have no belief in one.

 

Secondly, it is just as impossible for a theist to prove there is a god without ultimate knowledge. More so, since the burden of proof rests with them.

 

Thirdly, by this reasoning, every god and imaginary creature ever created must exist, since you can’t prove it false. This means yahweh is not the only god, and christianity is negated.

 

Just because you can’t prove something false, doesn’t mean it’s true.

 

Atheism is a religion/ atheists have faith.

Premises: Exactly what it says in the title

 

Problem: Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color, off is a tv channel, and not playing football is a sport. It is the lack of belief. The Cambridge online dictionary defines religion as  “the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship.’’

An atheist has neither belief in any gods, nor worships any. Religion can also be defined as “a set of rituals and ceremonies pertaining to a deity.” Again, this is not demonstrated in the atheist’s life.

I will assume the Christian reader does not believe in Thor. Is you’re a-Thorism a religion? Do you call yourself a follower of the ‘There is no Thor faith’, and go to Thor unbelief church? No.

 Seriously, no.just no.

 

People are born atheist.I think you're confusig terms. Oh, I'm guessing Newton's works on physics are also state relgion.Please explain how evolution is religion.

I'm sure you can find several qualified people who will accept anything if you try hard enough.Are you saying that because a minority reject it that makes it true?

 

Sorry about that,but I can testify far denser people than you have joined. Contary to what theists like to think, we don't censor people.This is a debate forum.

It is my opinion that there is no other evidence needed than the Gospel of The Flying Spaghetti Monster anyway. WHY WON'T YOU BELIEVE ME!!!

I wasn't sure either ,but when he got to the mods pulling his guts out, I was pretty sure it was sarcasm.

Hey how's that high horse? We were people like you.I'm not sure how you think we perceive you,but we thought just like you.We know were you're coming from.

 

What is it with pascal's wager lately? The certainity of eternal life? Seems to be if you have undeniable proof of this you should be sharing it.But you don't. You just think it's fact. Truth is, there's as much chance that vallaha,allah's paradise, or sto'vo'kor are the afterlifes as the christian heaven. If allah's the true god, you're gona be so screwed.

Yea,we like the truth.That's why we do this.

You got that right. That is why I can never be a christian (or member of any other faith I have ever heard of).

I don't know why you converted. As you said, you weren't exposed for long, although some people can be quite charismatic and persuasive. I guess you must have been in a susceptable frame of mind. Once you are there, many people brainwash themselves (self delusion). Why this happens is one of the big mysteries.

I have always been an atheist. I went to a bible camp once to keep a friend company when I was about 12. It was fun, mostly. I remember one of the priests (I don't actually know if he was an actual priest or not) taking me aside when he found out that I didn't believe, he was very persuasive (especially as an authority figure talking to a child). I don't remember what was said, but I ended up renouncing my sins and accepting jesus into my heart or something. But it only lasted about 10 minutes... Once I had a chance to think I found myself wondering, what the hell happened there? How did he convince me into momentarily agreeing with him? Just a good salesmen I guess.

Have you really read the bible? OT and all, not just the bits you are refered to?

I really find it mindblowing that someone could read that and accept it as truth.

I'm sure that's what every thiest says.Amazing how they all have the truth.

You have a misunderstanding of evolution.It is a scientific principle, not a world view.It's like you saying,'I couldn't accpet gravity as a world view.It got me down(literally). I felt so negative I could never float away."

If you've looked around here you'll see we are all generally very happy.More so than when we were christian.I couldn't imagine being happy now as a christian.Knowing the only reason I am here is the product of some being who decided to create me on a whim and will torture me if I don't love him.That after death many of my loved ones and friends will be burning.And that one day that being will come back and destroy this earth after much suffering.

Now that's depressing.

.

That was a really long Argument from Personal Experience.A very nice one I will admit,but still devoid of any actual evidence.

Thanks for your story. It is interesting.

Loc is right, evolution is not a world view. I don't believe it is all for naught, it is true that the universe does not care (because it is not sentient), but we are alive and that is an amazing thing. We should cherish our one life. The atheist viewpoint is not negative, it is neutral. It is up to us as individuals to make it positive, and I don't find that hard to do in such an amazing world.

It does not sound like you had one chance encounter, but were searching for something for a long time. If you used religion as a tool to help yourself out of the "gutter" then there is no doubt that it was a good tool for you to use at the time. But there was nothing miraculous about it. You actually did it by yourself, with human support. The voice was just part of your psyche.

I stand by what I said about the bible earlier.

Thanks again for opening up and telling your story.

Apparently very easily.

It would be difficult, I'm sure. It's not the mission of this group to "de-convert" you. You can think what you like. The name is "Rational Responders", and that's what we do.

Really? Because then you'd want to use the most successful method for differentiating between reality and fantasy. That would be the scientific method. It's the most successful and reliable way to understand truth thus far.

Could you tell me your scientific qualifications,since you feel in a position to reject a principle accepted by the scientific community for over a century,and still held despite vigorous testing.It's an honest question.

Or here is another question.How many non-biased(eg not Lee Strobel) books have you read on evolution?

Evolution is just a theory.

 

   Problem: So is gravity. Now go fly away. The word theory has different meanings in laymen and scientific contexts. In science it is something that has been tested and has evidence supporting it.

Example: The Theory of Gravity, Atomic Cell Theory

In science, something can be both theory and fact.

I suppose you do not believe in the germ theoro of disease either.In science, a theory is generally held to be something that is for all intents  and purposes true. Yes,there are scientific laws,but if I remember right these are things that can be expressed in mathematical forumala. Ie,Newton's second law of motion.

Because evolution cannot(to the best of my knowledge) be expressed in such a way,it would simply not be appropriate to express it as a law.(and I have read they are sometimes expressed as Newton's Theories) However,I'm sure you would be hard pressed to find a significant number of qualified scientists who did not accept it.

I'm afraid there isn't much I can do for you there.If that's your outlook on life,no one can change it but you.I for one enjoy life, and find no despair in the fact of death.I would find myself unable to live as a christian again:

God created me.I did not ask to be, but I am.

Now I will go to heaven or hell.God knows which one.I do not

I will live my life fraught with fear and guilt,always afraid I will go to hell.

Most of my friends and family will go to hell.

One day god will come back and destroy the earth,everything anyone has ever done will be meaningless

End result-we're all going to die and the earth be destroyed,most will go to hell. If anybody should be killing babies, it's you.then theyare guaranteed heaven. Please point out where I'm wrong.

Know let's look at a godless,evolutionary universe.

The human race is here.

There is great suffering,but we can do something about it,since there isn't a all powerful god causing it.

In theory, the planet could one day be united in peace.God promises only war in the last days.

We could colonise other planets.

In billions of years when our sun dies,we could survive it as a race.

We could evolve so highly as to surpass corpeal form,or discover other dimensions.In this way we could survive the destruction of the very universe.

The possibilities are only as limited as your imagination.Sure,it seems unlikely,but we have incredible amounts of time to work with.I see no despair here, only hope.

 

 

If you're one of those people who says"if it wasn't for god I'd be killing people right now" prehaps it's best you keep your beliefs for the good of those around you.

But let's play the game.Let us pretend they were chrsitian.Whatever reason would christians have for killing?

Exodus 21:15'And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.' Maybe god told them to kill some naughty kids. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

1 Samuel 15:3 'Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.' Maybe god wanted them to kill some sinners. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

Matthew 10:34'Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.' They just wanted to be like jesus.Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

Luke 19:27'But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.' 
Mabye those kids woudln't serve jesus.Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

2 Kings 2:23-24'and he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.'

Maybe that school had mocked the men of god,but being short on bears he sent two gun toting teens.Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

Deuteronomy 13:6,9 'If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

9 'But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.'

Maybe they tried to convert them to follow god.Clearly,they only had one option.Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

To even try use Columbine as an example of 'evolution evil' is ridiculous.You assume that they were evolutionists(not saying they weren't,I would have to research though) and ignore the multiple other factors.Their isolation and bullying at school, they two different personalities,one wanting fame and power, the other shy and needing acceptance. I do not believe that in the mix of all theses things,there thoughts or non thoughts on evolution had much to do with anything.

You seem to think we shouldn't mourn the dead.Everything is pointless right? Well athiests and evolutionists have feelings, and we cherish those close to us and will miss them when they're gone. However, I put it to you that you are the one that should be unfeeling in death. Either the person is in heaven,in which case you should celebrate their death, or in hell, in which case they clearly did something to anger god and are not deserving of sympathy.

 

Are eskimos going to hell..??

I'm a theist and I have no idea. And, in my opinion, any theist who claims with absolute certainty to have the answer is probably an idiot or a liar. Just as any atheist who claims to have THE answer is an idiot or a liar.

Both theists and athiests can give you an opinion - not a factual answer.

If, when you die, you "discover" an afterlife, then you might get the answer to your question then. But my guess is that you won't get it in this lifetime.