hay, it's a pleasure. Ya we hear it alot, but guess what. I was once,not so long ago, in your position.I had never asked a atheist anything, and these would have been among what I asked. As long as your polite and willing to listen, we'll be happy to answer.It's nice to get christians like you.

Infinite regressions a killer isn't it. Basicially, you have two choices. Everything needs a creator, or it doesn't. If you start with special pleading, it's gonna go downhill.

This boils down to everything created needs a creator. The thing here is, who created god?

If nothing, then everything, including the world, does not need a creator. There is no reason to believe creationism.

If something, then god is not the universe’s creator. There is no reason to believe creationism.

maybe not, but I'd worry about him destroying the earth at armageddon.

You might like to read this thread I made for people like you.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13173#new

I don't feel defeated, and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should just give up on life and watch people die and the like. I just really don't think that man kind is heading down a path for the better. Plus, I was basically referring to how we as an entire race have turned away from our Creator and that we cannot reconcile ourselves to Him. We needed someone to do that for us, and that was the ministry of Jesus the Christ.

Have you ever debated a Muslim by any chance? I haven't personally, but I know people that have, and just from the few debates the I do know about between a Christian and a Muslim, the Islamic theology comes across as very weak to me. It's been said that Christianity is the only major religion with any real apologetics to is name.

Like I've said before, there are a lot of people who claim to be Christians who in truth are not. I'm sure that there are some how genuinely believe that they are, but the Bible tells us to look at the work or fruits being produced by that person. Just like one can deem a tree good or bad by the fruit that's being produced, so we can deem a person as a follower of Christ, or otherwise. I'm not saying that anyone who goes to jail cannot possibly be a Christian. Everyone messes up, but we are judged by our works. Also, I know that prison ministry is a big ministry for Christians. I'm sure that there are a lot of inmates who have decided to follow Christ after they were already in prison.

I'm no expert either, but I do know a little bit. Like that in that culture, most of history was passed on by oral tradition. It's really hard for us to relate to that, but history and important events were passed on orally for a long time before historians really started taking down good accounts. And I've not done the research myself, but I've read about it by people who have and it's said that there actually are more written accounts of Jesus than just the Bible.

Hell doesn't comfort me. It's not a comforting thought that I have family and friends that will go to hell when they die. Being called to be willing to die for my faith doesn't make me all warm and fuzzy inside. I've heard of a lot of Christians that have been murdered in gruesome ways because they wouldn't denounce their faith. I don't want a nail hammered into my head, or to watch my friends be cut to pieces slowly and carefully knowing that I'd be next. No, that's not comforting to me...but it doesn't change what I know is true. Oh, and actually, I'm pursuing a career in medicine to use it as a platform to bring the gospel to the world. I really want to be a full time medical missionary. I want to meet the physical needs of the people I'd be caring for, but then I'd also get to show them how Jesus can meet their spiritual needs.

I think you have the wrong idea about God, because old and new testament is full of commands to help the poor, feed the hungry, heal the sick, to take care of the orphans and the widows. God doesn't want us to leave the people He created in the mess that sin has gotten them into.

And by the way, I was nearly close to finishing typing this when I hit backspace not knowing that I had clicked out of the text box and I lost everything. I had to retype this all over again, and it definitely wasn't the exact same as I had it before. It was really frustrating! AHH! Ok...I'm good now.

Well that's a bit of a tough one since you have to accept the creator bit.Why do you say the entire race has turned from god when christianity is still the dominant religion?

I haven't, but I hate to break it to, christianity isn't renowned for coming up with original arguements.However, I was just using allah as an example. You can insert FSM, zeus, anyone of the thousands of gods.

I wouldn't be too proud of those christian apologetics I've yet to see them convince anyone that's actually put some thought into it, at least around here.

No True Scotsman fallacy, and like I said before-when so many are misrepreseting it, you should look at the source for problems.Not the individuals.

I'm aware that many become christian in prison. Though that's largely for parole purposes. However, I'm just saying that christians make it sound like only they can have morals, which they don't seem to anyway.

Unless I'm really mistaken, I think the Roman empire would have been pretty good at record keeping. I can't imagine the most powerful force on earth relying on oral tradition. Yet still, no one wrote anything.

You almost get me mad here. You are standing on the cusp of realization, you just need to look properly.I know exactly what you mean,I used to fear hell alot. Now, if this isn't comforting and just produces guilt and fear, doesn't sound too loving does it? Are you believing out of fear or love?

If you really want to be a medical missionary, you should just heal people with prayer. Doesn't jesus say whatever you ask for his name will be given? He's hardly going to deny you the oppurtunity to preach and heal. So is he lying or what?

It's also full of commands to kill the nonbeliever, abandon your family, commit genocide, and other loving things. Some good doesn't negate the bad. So, um, who created the sin that got these people into the mess? Who could wipe sin from existence and make things perfect again? Who sits by and allows the suffering for something Adam did?

Haha-I can't tell you how many time I've lost stuff I've written just before posting. Glad you did it again, appreciate the effort.

I think that it's not one or the other, but both. He wants us to do good to others because He loves us, but it also glorifies His name because He is Love. And we are all created in the image of God, and Jesus said that if we show love to someone, we are showing love to Him. And I think that anytime we demonstrate an aspect of God to another person it gives God glory. But like you, I love my sister because I love her, but it also gives God glory.

People with that mindset totally have it all wrong. It's not more honorable or more moral. It's not what Jesus taught his followers to do, but it is tempting to want to take glory for ourselves. I have to be careful when I do things publicly.

And these are good questions by the way...I hope I gave you good answers!

Well, as much as I'd love to take that title from her, I think I'll just drop out of the runnings and tell you what I meant by that. If you look at the model Christian lifestyle, Jesus Christ, and if people lived like he did and like the message he preached, mankind would have been furthered to perfection. Of course, that's not possible, but I am trying to live like Jesus did. The problem is that you and I have different views on what perfect would be like.

Jesus' death doesn't stop us from sinning. He took the penalty for those sins onto himself when he was crucified almost 2,000 years ago, but some of those sins still have yet to be committed. I'm a Christian, and I still sin, but I've confessed that Jesus is the Lord and I believe that God raised Him from the dead and so I am forgiven of my sins. God no longer sees my sin, but sees the righteousness of His son in my place. Jesus took the wrath of God that should have been mine upon himself and suffered the result of sin, death. But he was raised from the dead, thus defeating death and thus defeating sin in the since that it no longer controls us who believe in God and have the Holy Spirit. We can still sin, but we're forgiven thanks to Jesus. It's not an excuse to sin either. It doesn't work like that. I'm not a Christian if I say, I can do whatever I want and get away from it since God will just forgive me. That's not what the Bible teaches.

When even the best of us is compared to a perfect God with a standard of perfection, even he, or she , would be like the scum of the earth.

If more people thought like that, human kind just might head toward Christianity.

IMNSHO? ¿Que eso?

Look, I believe that Jesus is the only way to life and to be reconciled with God, whom we were created to have a relationship with and worship. I believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus at all or as the only way to reconciliation with God, will go to hell. If I saw a blind man walking toward a bottomless pit, I'd try to stop him from falling in, wouldn't you?

I didn't say that I wanted it to be a one way street, I was just wanting to hear the reason way atheists go down their side of the street is all. And I don't think Christians deserve special treatment. No one is exempt from the scrutiny that comes with the pursuit of truth.

Jman, If you want to ask your self some serious questions I would read some from these following posts,

questions about God

15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. ]

16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH
1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.
3.) All Faiths are true.
[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]

17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? -  ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).
2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1. If God exists, then he is immutable.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?

Errors of the bible

If you wondered what folks mean by "special pleading", you're doing it here.

You can't say "everything has a cause" and exclude God from that everything.

Depends on the blind man. (kidding)

We KNOW through experience that falling into the pit will kill someone.  You BELIEVE you have it right about god, etc., but don't have anything approaching the same quality of evidence you have about people falling into pits being fatal to back you up.

I didn't say you said it, I said "it seems".  By asking the question "why don't atheists just believe and let believe" in conjunction with your compulsion to spread the word, the effect is as I described.

I'm glad to see you don't think believers deserve special treatment.  With that said...

- You assert that something called god exists.  Prove it.

That's how it works.  If you claim something is the case, you must back it up.  If I claimed Italy had the world's tallest mountain or that all lakes had merpeople in them, you'd ask me to prove it, and the onus would be on me to do so.  Until I *did* prove it, you'd be well within the bounds of reason to treat it for what it is: an unsubstantiated claim.

So...what is your evidence that you are right to believe and we are wrong/foolish/blind for not believing as you do?  Remember: words like "proof" and "evidence" have meanings that are not open to interpretation, so don't be surprised if we tell you what you offer is no good (as long as we can explain why it's no good).

Spot on, Mate.

Not really, but it doesn't have to. The problem is that you've introduced an entity (God) that doesn't need to conform to logic. You can keep saying, "but God invented logic" or "but God invented physics". You're using a miraculous explanation every time you say that. And that's based on something you've never seen.

Once you bring God into it, and you determine that God is the one thing that doesn't need to conform to natural laws, you can't even use logic anymore. You're stuck. I suppose the next step would be to wonder how it was that a non-physical being made a message by way of the Bible.

That was brilliant Tilberian.

jman,please read that carefully.If the you think the guy was a kook,then you'll see why we dismiss your god. You are convinced of an afterlife and a god, but can't provide any sort of eveidence.Do you see our problem?

Here's another analogy:

Lets say you appear before a judge with a huge fine you can't pay. The judge decides to pay it for you just because he likes you. Nice guy huh?  Obviously the judge is god and the fine your sins.

But what if the judge had made thousands of insane laws no one could keep? And then, knowing people would break them, decided to punish them for it unless they came and served him so he would clear their fines. Now he just sounds like a petty, vindictive bastard.

"When even the best of us is compared to a perfect God with a standard of perfection, even he, or she , would be like the scum of the earth."

But we are created in god's image. He must be as screwed up as the rest of us. He ceated Adam in his image and that didn't work out so well. Your god is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent, yet humans constantly disobeyed him, even back in Moses day when God was supposedly performing miracles right in front of them (do you see the problem with that? That is the problem with bad fiction, inconsistencies). Moses even got God to change his mind a few times. God is hardly perfect.

Prove that God (even if he existed) is good. Look at the harm he did in the bible, countless thousands of people killed. Look at the ridiculous laws that he gave to Moses. Moses the mass murderer. If a virgin gets raped in a field the rapist should pay her father 40 shekels and marry her? WTF?

How can you honestly believe that the bible is true and follow it?

Jman, I like you, you seem like a nice guy, but... Some have thought that you are on the cusp of breaking free from your delusion, but unless you take an objective look at the bible and your religion you are just riding on an exercize bike... lots of pedaling but going nowhere.

I'm not meaning to be aggresive (a little passionate?), just a little slap to try to snap you out of it.

I hope we didn't scare him away. Maybe he is pulling his hair out trying to reconcile his ludicrous notions and irrational leanings. I think he really does seem like a decent guy trying to figure out some things for himself.

Jman - this is exactly why atheists have such a problem with theism. It's the general lack of critical thinking that goes along with blindly believing in invisible people in the sky.

You heard somewhere that Antony Flew, a noted atheist writer, converted from atheism to deism. You took that as fact. Had you bothered to do a little research, you would have found that this wasn't true.

Here's an extensive article on Flew's supposed conversion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

You'll find that Flew is a man of advanced age and declining mental faculties that was conned into putting his name on an anti-atheism book.

Now, let's take the problem of poor critical thinking and apply that to something really important, like the environment, social policy, international relations...now maybe you can see what makes us speak out against theism.

Oh, and it don't cost me a thing. 

Makes sense to me < I AM GOD ! Why not you? ..... get your shit together .... Dont deny YOU, why? , who said such a thing to "worship" ?  >     The god of abe is half the devil , kill that ..... it's the devil of hell ! It's dogma , it is patriotic religion poison. ....      Have your cake and eat it to , and lots of pie .....    L O V E is our law of evolution  ......      And celebrate another day ! 

Maybe I can summarize the glaring problem with this by continuing the metaphor. I think we can accurately say that you've never seen the bottomless pit, but rather read about it in a book. This is simply a different kind of blindness. The blind man necessarily takes his steps carefully, testing each before shifting his weight. He might also employ some instrument such as a cane to make sure that where he is going is safe. It could be true that in claiming to know where the pit is, you're not being as careful as the blind man in avoiding other dangers.

Here is a different metaphor: two men wander through a dark maze of sharp blades and spiked pits. One man charges about expecting god(s) to guide him, the other meticulously judges whether the way is safe by examining his environment with all the means at his disposal. In my eyes, this is the difference between great faith and great science. Most people would place their bets on the survival of the second man.

So, what about the hell thing? If you don't believe in hell then the rest of this post is irrelevant.

If you believe in that, doesn't it bother you that if heaven is perfect and you go there you might worry about her ultimate fate? I think that would kind of spoil the ultimate happiness thing. How do you reconcile this? Do you trust that she'll come around eventually? Would you trade positions with her if it came down to it? If that dilemma doesn't bother you then I'm worried.

Oh i ment to ask all you belivers out there first there have been religions long before your crhistians showed up, so what makes yours so special that it should be the end all be all? just because it came later and there was the ability to force it on the world unlike before with the egyptian and greek polytheistic beliefs, so you got lucky and out lasted?  why is your god much better then Zeus, Rahm, Buddah, or Gya? (probbaly misspelled)

Why cant you allow others to believe as we wish as these religions let you centuries ago?  are you afraid you will be regulated to hystory and myth (as that is what it is) as those were? or is it your loosing your tiething and can't pay for you monsterous churches?

Also someone wrote.    "I know that the goal of Christianity is not to destroy man kind. In fact, it's just the opposite."   and actually religions are a form of control and have been since the dawn of their time, hence the roman and english catholic church institutions.  the way to improve society is not to say what were doing wrong here to get to there, but to believe in humanity and that we can get from here to the future by beliveing in ourselvs.  religions keep people from having or being able to think, they jsut tell them what they can't and can do.

evolution and humans are not under some gods control, gays on both sides are proof,  unless you didn't get the newest version of a bible that he is whispering to some nut in montana or kansas gays are here no matter how your belief may not want them.  that is one proof against god. an other is all the wars if he loved us and could control us then why would he have us killing each other.  Also for those baby making religions, why would a god want you to have 4-14 kids this is the cause of over population, this may have been good when people lived to be 50 got married at 15 and had kids that out of 10 only 3 would live, but lets stop unless you want to start liveing like china with a world wide limit on kids 2 per couple or one per adult in the world.

There are so many things that beg the question WHY that unless your an idiot (which i think so many are) you can't help but wonder.  The proof is my grandpa of 79 years just told me for the last 10 ye has started his change to athiesim and that these organized religions have it wrong and aren't helping society any more.  come on if a 78 year old highly educated, and educator, can do it why not you.

Wow, what an attractive offer God presents us with.....submit to his will or he'll burn you alive for eternity 

That's a proposition right up there with "Give me all your money or I'll blow your brains out !"   

Cool Alan Watts wrote: "The religion of "Jesus" [a buddha like wise clan] was that he  knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." .......... and,  "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God."

"Wake up" [said a buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~~~ Alan Watts

_______________________________________________________________

In other words: "The religion of "Jesus" [a buddha like wise clan] was that they knew they are the sons and daughters of God, as all is ONE, connected, NO MASTER.