PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
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Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
No - you just claimed that conceivability entails possibility (aka if you can think it you can be it/it is real).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The appeal to authority is an ontological fallacy, but not necessarily an epistemological falllacy. Aka, it's rational to believe things based on the majority of expert testimony. Most of our historical (and for most people, scientific beliefs too) are based on majority opinions in the respective fields. Although such an appeal is fallacious in more abstract disciplines like philosophy, I think it is rational to hold to scientific and historical beliefs based on majority expert testimony.
Further, one of the signs of good objective evidence is when people from a variety of worldviews are forced to accept things because of the evidence. It happens to be that nearly all reputable scholars, whether they theists or atheists, accept the core of the historical facts pertaining to JEsus' resurrection that I mentioned. A parallel to this is what we find in evolution. The evidence for evolution is so good that people from a variety of worldviews are forced to accept it because the evidence is there. Of course, this won't stop a few fringe thinkers from disagreeing because of a tremendous bias to the contrary (e.g., Dembski and Behe in biology and people like Richard Carrier and Robert Price in NT history). And of course, this vast consensus among experts won't stop uneducated people on the internet claiming the contrary based on misinformation/propoganda (e.g., creationists and Christ-mythicists).
You disastrously misunderstand what my modal argument for dualism is. I'm talking about whether or not minds and brains share the same modal properties, this is different from the modal argument that moves from God's possibility to his actuality. So, you are attacking a straw man.
Now, you ask me why I continue to persist even though you guys aren't "buying" my arguments. However, most discussions take a lot of time to really find out where our error lies. I wouldn't expect anyone to give up a belief (especially one they passionately belief in) to be convinced after reading a few posts on a forum. I have convinced multiple people that theism is true. I don't expect people like you guys to be convinced because you are quite dogmatic atheists and won't consider that theism may be true (at least some of you). More importantly, the more I explore your objections, the more I realize they are founded on either ignorance, misinformation, or misunderstanding. For example, you misunderstand the modal argument. One of the major tragedies of all of this is it seems that the reason some of you are atheists is because you've only been aquainted with radical, fundementalist Christianity and not the sophisticated forms that are respected in academia.
I may pickup that book. I consider myself to be open minded. I have been an atheist, agnostic, and even a muslim at one point! (though, that was only for a few days). My beliefs fluctuate a lot so I will probably get hit by doubt and go back to agnosticism eventually.
In any case, I have read Michael Shermer's book with a similar title.
Why are you guys attacking the ontological argument? I never made the modal argument for God's existence. Rather, I argued that the mind and brain have different modal properties. That's completely different from the ontological argument.
Am I making an appeal to authority? Yes, but not the fallacious kind. I'm making an epistemological argument from authority. Aka, I think its rational to believe historical and scientific beliefs based on majority expert opinions. In fact, for most people, all of their historical and scientific beliefs are grounded in this way.
Moreover, when a variety of people from different worldview finds evidence convincing, it usually means there is good evidence to be found. For example, the fact that only a few radical fringe scientists reject evolution (E.g., dembski and Behe) and so many people from different worldviews do accept it shows that only bias leads one to deny the fact in question.
Likewise, you'll be hard pressed to find reputable scholars who deny the core of the facts I mentioned. You will find radical, fringe scholars who deny these facts altogether (E.g., Carrier and Price) but the fact that almost everyone from every worldview accepts these facts show that a bias clouds their judgement. This doesn't stop ignorant and misinformed people (usually because of propoganda) on the internet from spreading uninformed positions (creationism and Christ-mythicism).
Dualism is backed up from well-documented NDE's as I argued. So, I think we have a good cumulative case on our hands.
Again, please do your research. At least read that article on the criteria of authenticity. These types of methods are standard among historians. The skepticism that you are approaching the NT with would easily destroy much secular history. E.g., we could never establish the existence of Socrates or much history at all if you just real out the criteria of multiple attestation. That is one of the most criteria that historians use to investigate history.
Are you seriously denying the criterion of multiple attestation? PLEASE, educate yourself-it's like debating a creationist.
The scholar I cited is a reputable historian from Yale university. I
So here's that PDF I was talking about. (thanks Bob)
http://www.filedropper.com/lookingforlifeinthemultiverse
(there appears to be two download buttons, one for the PDF and one for an AD, click the one that says download this file)
Or if anyone has access to Scientific American, you can check it out here: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=looking-for-life-in-the-multiverse
I think I have adequeately addressed your origional non historical agruments Quaestio, but I'll make a comment or two on your rebuttals. Though, I'd actually like to focus on your historical arguments.
I'm not sure that's what current cosmological models argue. We don't know anything about what was before the Big Bang. My point was that I think you were equivocating the usage of the word 'exist'.
Sure, you made an argument for P4, but I don't think you actually made an argument and I think it still stands that P4 is an assertion. Again, it is only our universe's space-time that ceases to exist at begining of the Big Bang, not all concievable space-time. Perhaps you might say that this being of yours is outside our space-time, but I don't think you can make to the leap to saying that this being is immaterial and eternal.
My criticism lies in the fact that you assume the mind can exist immaterially. In a sense you are begging the question, you assume the mind can exist outside the body (immaterially), then conclude that the mind is immaterial (dualism).
I don't know much about NDE clinically, but it seems that people are jumping ahead of themselves in claiming that they are evidence for the supernatural. I've had a NDE after being extremely sick, it was not wonderful and beautiful nor did I see anything 'on the other side'. Looking back on my memory of it, it was scary and I was in an altered state of mind (I had not taken any medicine, merely slept for 24hrs+) where I seemed hardly in control of my own speech and movement.
Now I wish to focus on you historical arguments for Jesus. What I find most fascinating about them is that they mimic (virtually word for word) Islamic arguments for the historical accuracy of the Quran and Hadith.
Actually, I did not say that. I stated that the Gospels were not written by eyewitnesses. So my point still stands and you apparently agree with me.
Show me, I would love to see some. You claim Josephus, but he wasn't born until 37 CE, which would be after Jesus's death, and Josephus mentions Jesus twice, once in passing and the second time is a point of contention between historical scholars. While you could use Josephus to support an argument that a man named Jesus existed, I don't thnik you could extend it to proving his miracles.
Within a few years of resurrection? Try again, the epistles that are attributed to Paul were written 20 years after the 'ressureciton' (ie, in 50+ CE).
Again, based on eye-witness testimony and eye-witness testimony are two different things, one is a primary source the other is a secondary source. The NT would be a secondary source.
umm, really? The gospels aren't even internally consistent between themselves, only Biblical literalists think that the Bible is accurate. Also, oral traditions are not reliable, please stop saying that, it makes you look foolish.
I never mentioned chronology. The list posted was an attempt to demonstrate that "reliable oral tradition" is in fact false. Sure, I'm arguing from silence, but it makes sense in this context. You claim that oral traditions are strong and what is written down decades later is accurate. I point out that they leave out important things like walking on flipping water, and you then make a comment about chronology and try to ignore my point.
I'm glad you are aware of these source documents. Again, these proposed source documents are different, but not independent, they were all written by early christians. I don't dispute the proposition that the gospels were based on earlier writings, but calling them independent is a mistake.
How about the gospel of Mark? Not that I think it is reputable, but you get my point.
Again, there is nothing within a few months nor within an few years. The earliest writings are the epistles and they date after 50CE or 20 years after Jesus died. The Gospels were subsequently written 15+ years after the episltes. There is only one argument for the empty tomb, it was mentioned in the NT, that's it. I don't have to address any arguments for an empty tomb until we can establish the truth of the NT, which so far cannot be done.
I don't know what you are referring to with Pliny the Younger, but he wasn't born until 62 CE.
Now you sound like me! lol Let's rephrase your sentence.
All we have are traditions in the Bible (Quran). I'm afraid that the historical credibility of these narratives is simply not good enough to establish historocity of these events.
Please tell me you see the irony in your statement.
I honestly think this is the most important point, if you understand why you don't take the historocity of the Quran seriously, you'll undersand why I don't do the same with the Bible.
If you don't want the ontological argument attacked - stop trying to sneak it in.
You're the one who brought up possibilities and you did so in the arguments you did bring up.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Please read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method
Yes, when multiple independent sources mention something, we think that event is more likely to have happened. However, the NT is not independent, yes it is composed of multiple sources, but not independent. Look carefully at all the criteria, you'll see that the NT does rather poorly on some of them, especially those concerning bias and timescale.
Again, I cannot emphasize enough that both the Quran and the Hadith pass the criteria of multiple attestations with flying colors (better than the NT actually), they record a chain of narration from Muhammad down to the person who wrote the hadith/Quran.
They also pass the embarrassment test, Muhammad and his followers were kicked out of town and practically starved to death in a multi-year exile. Muhammad's followers were tortured and killed in some of the most brutal ways imaginable (passing the embarrasment test) including but not limited to: literally being ripped apart, dumping animal entrails on Muhammad, death by spear up your reproductive organs (kid friendly!).
Why should I accept the NT over the Quran? If it's a question of historical reliablity, the Quran/hadith do so much better than the NT. If a person ate in public or walked while eating, they considered his testimony unreliable, compilers of hadith were super strict in what they considered authentic.
Again, by "reputable" you mean that they already accept the preconceived beliefs you hold. No one but Christians and others of Abrahamic faiths believe the "fact" that a man named Jesus lived and only Christians think he was resurrected from death. If they accept the magic of the religious text, that would make them a Christian. I see no reason to assume that magic exists outside of the realm of imagination, as all the evidence I have seen points to it being impossible. So I have no reason to assume that one internally inconsistent, biased book was evidence for it without also taking a serious look at The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. At least the writers of those books were honest enough to classify them as fiction!
I have been looking for some of these "reputable" scholars that are not already believers in the Abrahamic faiths that accept the magical claims of the Bible as historical. I can tell you that it's been really hard to find many of them. But apparently you know about all the "reputable" scholars in the world so I should just take your word for it. Um... no.
So you continue to regurgitate this stuff? All the evidence gathered so far points to an entirely physical explanation for the phenomenon and against dualism, but you can't give it up since you treat it like your trump card. If it is, then your argument is on even shakier ground then I previously thought.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
THe mind is not identical with the brain, but the massive balance of evidence is that it is totally dependent on the brain, as a process taking place within the 'circuitry' of the brain.
NDE's do not contradict this - at most, they show that our perception can appear to be from a point-of-view outside the body, but there is little evidence that this is more than a confabulation of the mind, which is definitely possible, and consistent with various experiments. To prove real physical separation of the point-of-view would require reports of things that could not be seen from where the person's body is, and proof that they could not have got the information in any other way.
It also seems that we can still sense things while our brain appears to be totally inactive, but since in all NDE accounts, the brain recovers, it is highly unlikely that brain function actually completely stopped. It would be nice to get results from NDE experiences where we had access to the latest equipment for measuring brain activity.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I just have to interject on the NDE stuff. Saying NDE's are evidence for dualism is a fallacious argument for the gaps. At *most* the research you are citing shows a *gap* in our knowledge about consciousness, it doesn't support dualism at all. As some others have said, when there is a flat-line EEG and the person experiences an NDE, it is far more likely to be evidence that either A) There is brain activity we are not able to measure or B) the NDE happens either before the brain shuts down or when it starts back up. B seems more likely, but A would be fascinating to discover.
Falsifiability. There is no way to point to the NDE happening when the brain is shut down, because we can't measure any activity.
The whole dualism thing still doesn't make sense to me...for dualism to be true there has to be some sort of undetectable force that rides our brains and interacts with it in an undetectable way, and somehow breaks causality to influence our decision making process. The whole thing is if and maybe. Zero evidence. Zero explanatory power. Zero falsifiability. A handful of gaps.
At best, there is a *gap* in our knowledge that those who favor dualism find convenient to fill with their philosophic bullshit. The fact that the 'evidence' for dualism has been so weakened over the last two hundred years is just another sign pointing to the uselessness of the entire concept. Everything we know about consciousness has been trending away from dualism, and with every discovery those favoring dualism cling tighter to the shadows not yet illuminated.
What does dualism explain? How do we test for it? How do we falsify it? Bah. I've read the philosophers talking about dualism, and I'm not impressed with them either. The problem is the same common problem with other philosophical ideas...when philosophy meets reality, reality always wins. However, philosophers often seem intent on clinging to a failed idea until they die, and their students are dead, and *their* students are dead before the rest of us can finally move on and continue making progress. Philosophy is great for asking questions, but it is utter shit for finding answers.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
How do you quote people? The other forums have a quote button but I don't see one here. For now, I'll just put my detractos words in quotations and bold.
"Philosophy ia mostly word games, not based on empirical evidence, and most philosophy is, and has been, wrong."
The history of science is a history of ever-changing conclusions based on new evidence. Most science has been false too. If you think about it, the history of ideas (in philosophy and science) is the history of the progress of knowledge, getting a clearer picture of reality the more we study and learn about things. All we can do is try to form the best judgments based on the evidence we have.
A lot of philosophy is meaningless word games (e.g., the debate on abstract objects and others) but the arguments I gave are not totally abstract word games like Zeno's paradoxes. Take the Kalam Cosmological Argument for example. The second premise is supported in a purely scientific manner. Despite what a previous poster said, all models which extend beyond the Big Bang themselves include an absolute beginning of all of space-time. The first premise underpins almost of all of science. The argument for the personhood of the cause flows almost by definition out of what it means to be the cause of all space and time.
Take also the fine-tuning argument. The main substance of the argument is based in astrophysics. The conclusions follow from basic principles of confirmation theory and abduction-not "word games".
The most abstract of my arguments, the argument from consciousness, isn't pure philosophy either. P1 (the most controversial premise) is strongly based in well documented NDE's under strict medical documentation. The modal argument is abstract but its core is founded in basic principles of identity and modality. The principle behind the argument is clearly true (if two propositions are identical, they have all the same properties. A=A necessarily). The only controversial premise is that it is possible that the mind exists outside of the body. However, all of us use possible "counterfactuals" all of the time, and our criterion is an implicit assumption of samkara's principle. However, applying that to our situation, we find that we have prima facie reason to think that minds can, in a logically possible world, exist without our bodies and the rest of the argument follows from the concept of identity.
Finally, the argument from miracles is also based in principles found in standard confirmation theory and rules of abduction. The historical evidence is very good, this is why so many scholars across a wide amount of worldviews find those facts to be historical (more on this "majority doesn't make right" debate later).
So, these arguments are based in more than just groundless speculation, but are rooted in concepts of probability theory, logic, history, experience, and science.
"As already pointed out, it most definitely IS possible to conceive of what is logically impossible."
Really now, can you conceive of a square circle, a married bachelor, or a brother that isn't a family member?
"And if it is logically possible that A can exist without B, that DOES NOT imply they have different modal properties, in general"
Leibniz' law of the indiscernability of identicals states that for any two identical propositions a and b, for any property p either one has , a and b necessarily have p. If there is a single property that a has that b doesn't, then by the necessity of identity they are not the same thing (caps for emphasis, not anger). If property b has the modal property "possibly not existing under circumstance c" but a does not have property "possibly not existing under circumstance c", then a and b are not the same thing via the law of identity stated above because there is a property a has that b doesn't.
"NDE's do NOT, and cannot logically, show the mind can exist without the body, even if you take all the claims seriously. If the brain really died, we would not have any testimony from the patient. And unless it did fail to regain function, we have no confirmation that it really did completely cease to function."
If people can report things miles away from their body when they have flat brain activity and flat heart activity, then it does show that we can be conscious even though are brains are dead. One of such cases comes from Pam Reynolds who was clinically dead and yet had qualitative experiences.
"All the evidence from the generation of such experiences by other means suggests that it is something that occurs as the brain reaches some particular level of stress due to loss of blood flow, before it actually shuts down."
Dying brain hallucinations cannot explain cases where people can verify objective information that was going on in the room while they had a flat EEG reading nor can it account for people's reporting information that occurred miles away. I addressed this argument in more opening statement.
There's a simpler explanation. People who had normal brain activity saw what was happening on the monitors (or a coincidence miles away) and told the person who was near death after they were brought back. Then those events got incorporated into the "vision".
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
That's only allowed for members that are atheists, you have to deny the holly ghost in order to be able to quote.
Or you could just press the quote button at the bottom of each post. Or you could open with the tag [ quote=Quaestio ] (without the spaces) and close with the tag [ /quote ] (again without spaces). Denning the holly ghost is easier thought, it also enables the [remove logical fallacies] and respectively [/remove] tags. I think you could use that tag.
Science isn't false per say, the term 'false' implies dishonesty, that's more among the lines of religion. Theories are proven to be wrong due to new discoveries. A scientific theory is something that best describes what we empirically know at the time. If instruments improve and we have access to better/contradictory data, then the theories must also adapt. We don't have an issue with that, we have an issue with your conclusions. If you're trying to tell us that we wouldn't be able to know anything(or a god) outside our natural universe, the majority of us will agree 100%. An unnatural god is not a btter 'possibility', in fact it is one of the most illogical ones but it is a possibility. The problem that we're having with is the fact that you're saying YOU KNOW of a god that is unknowable. You have a self defeating argument here.
I think he meant an illusion much like a pink unicorn, a biblical Jesus, Santa Clause, you know, the usual delusions people have. He didn't mean something outside the universe like you're implying to have knowledge of.
The NDE stuff needs to stop if you want to be taken seriously. Even most theists will agree that it's BS, I'm not sure why you keep this up.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
Either that or he's saying that brain hypoxia is required for a complete Christian experience.
lol, too tempting, but this is the kill them with kindness forum. "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me then a frontal lobotomy"
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
But your Kalam argument is not supported in a purely scientific matter. I have explained this to you, yet you have chosen to ignore it. Which model states that the beginning of everything ever was in the big bang. Pay careful attention to what I am saying: yes our universe appeared to start with the Big Bang, but what does science say about things 'before' the big bang? Your argument relies on there being nothing before the Big Bang, we don't know if that is true.
Again, the substance of the argument is not based in astrophysics. It is an argument out of ignorance of astrophysics. Did you take a look at the PDF I posted? It clearly proposes possible universes which can exist (based on our understanding of physics) very differently yet still conceivably develop life. We don't even have to look at the whole of the universe, just look at our own planet, does extreme weather appear to be fine tuned for human life? Does the fact that our planet's distance from the sun varies by thousands of km appear to be fine tuned? Think about what you are saying.
Look, are you even going to address the rebuttals people are making? Only Christians think these 'facts' are 'historical', no one else does...
If you wanna quote Craig etc.; then I'll just cut and paste Wiki
The argument has been widely criticized by such philosophers as J. L. Mackie, Graham Oppy, and Quentin Smith, and physicists Paul Davies and Victor Stenger.
Stenger has argued that quantum mechanics disconfirms the first premise of the argument, that is, that something can not come into being from nothing. He postulates that such naturally occurring quantum events are exceptions to this premise, like the Casimir effect and radioactive decay.
Ghazali thought that it is at least theoretically possible for there to be an infinite regress, and that there is nothing that necessitates a first-cause simply by pure deductive reason. He thus disputes one of the essential premises of the first-cause argument.
Muhammad Iqbal also rejects the argument stating, “Logically speaking, then, the movement from the finite to the infinite as embodied in the cosmological argument is quite illegitimate; and the argument fails in toto.” For Iqbal the concept of the first uncaused cause is absurd, he continues: "It is, however, obvious that a finite effect can give only a finite cause, or at most an infinite series of such causes. To finish the series at a certain point, and to elevate one member of the series to the dignity of an un-caused first cause, is to set at naught the very law of causation on which the whole argument proceeds."
Kant for example also rejects any cosmological proof on the grounds that it is nothing more than an ontological proof in disguise. He argued that any necessary object’s essence must involve existence, hence reason alone can define such a being, and the argument becomes quite similar to the ontological one in form, devoid of any empirical premises.
It is not determined that anything caused the universe. There is speculation that the universe shoots out big bangs constantly (multiverse). Weinberg suggests that to have consistent language (if universe means anything at all as the whole ball and wax) our 13.7 billion year old experiment is one subset of the universe. In that scenario the universe could be eternal. Throwing aside a big crunch if there is no multiverse then the universe could reach infinite entropy and be back in its original state and another big bang occur. The source could be Being that is potentiality from which things actualize as existence ( a typical panentheistic philosophical SWAG) but not be personal. Lenny Susskind (of string theory fame) in response to Hawkings conclusion that black holes when they evaporate eat information formulated the holographic principle nowidely accepted by phsyicists. That information is projected holgraphically as a universe from a two dimensional event horizon. In Trivia Pursuit the difference between a WAG and a SWAG is the WAG is a wild ass guess and the SWAG is a scientific wild ass guess. Philosophy is mostly WAG and physics is barely SWAG. It's best to use agnostic in its true sense....WE DO NOT KNOW. I'd hate to base my life on WAG or a SWAG. The tail wags the dog too often.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
50 cents says he's going to ignore this whole reply and trump you with NDE again.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
50 cents says he's going to ignore this whole reply and trump you with NDE again.
The experiences of NDE's can be reproduced with electro-magnetism applied to the right prefrontal cortex. My father had an NDE after a heart attack and he later died of luekemia. I wish that it meant he really left his body and that he is still around somewhere. It is a slight possibility if there is a panpsychism a la Chalmers. But I doubt it because the evidence shows it more probably (very Probable) that consciousness is a product of the brain.
You first hafta determine WTF consciousness is before you go and posit it outside the body. Again WAG asnd SWAG and WE DON"T KNOW ya think?
You certainly can research it but ya can't claim ya think?????????? I will claim I saw Elvis at the store this morning.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism