PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
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Not really. Here you go : www.healing-arts.org
My point is, for it to be "non-biased", wouldn't it need to feature both sides of the argument ? I looked, and I didn't find anything on the site itself, so I found some other links for you :
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/09/vaccine-skeptics-vs-your-kids
And this report by the National Advisory Committee on Immunization finds the concerns raised by people like Dr Mehl-Madrona to be "purely theoretical" :
http://www.autism-watch.org/news/thimerosal_canada.shtml
Read all those, then look for some more. After having absorbed all that information, you'll be able to form a non-biased opinion.
And when you get the chance, google Dr Mehl-Madrona as well. He seems to think that sweat lodge ceremonies are a viable treatment for cancer.
Actually, it does matter. Just read the first link.
I see. So when you have children, you will make sure they get all their shots ?
The anti-vaccination push is a great danger to our society. The arguments against vaccination are unscientific.
For example, they keep repeating nonsense about mercury and autism, even though autism rates have continue unchanged or even risen, despite mercury compounds (mainly thimerisol ) in vaccines having been eliminated or greatly reduced since 2001 because of the fears expressed. A new study here confirms that it is not a factor, yet the anti-vaxers will continue to parrot this crap.
When the level of vaccination falls too low in a community, some nasty diseases will come back, like these examples demonstrate:
http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20090123/hib-outbreak-kills-unvaccinated-child.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no3_supp/vandenhof.htm (rubella)
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=2839 (measles)
This anti-vaccination crap is truly harmful nonsense, more explicitly and provably so even that your silly God stuff.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
http://www.rationalresponders.com/what_does_sugar_have_to_do_with_murder
http://www.rationalresponders.com/myth_sexuality_and_culture
I view morality in a very different way than you. I see morality as nothing more than an abstraction of what humans feel is "good" or "bad." I believe morality is man made, based mostly on our instincts and partly on culture.
Our instincts came from our development as a social species. We are predisposed, to a certain extent, to behave in different ways around different people. This is why so many of our instincts seem to be in such conflict; humans can simultaneously sacrifice themselves for their kin, committing seemingly altruistic acts, while committing terrible atrocities against foreigners. Natural selection favored those that were nice to their ‘in-group,’ family, friends, neighbors, and less nice against those in ‘out-groups,’ strangers, hostile tribes.
Well, why don’t sharks just bite each other’s tails off for fun? Why don’t worker ants massacre other worker ants in the same colony? Why don’t piranhas eat each other? Because if they did, then they wouldn’t exist. If there were species of organisms that developed widespread cannibalism, they would become extinct. They exist for the very reason that they don’t kill each other.
For atheists, humans are just animals; we are the most intelligent animal, but animals nonetheless. And, as I said before, morality is just an abstraction of what we feel is right or wrong based mostly on our instincts. Without a referent, the term, “morality,” is ultimately meaningless. Naturally, all the animals that I named, and ‘cavemen’ had instincts. Thus, they are predisposed do to certain things, like not kill each other, because of their genes.
Our moral values cannot be “eroded” because we cannot change our DNA by taking away religion. From my perspective, we always had these morals; then, competing religions came on to the scene and tried to justify these innate traits by attributing them to their respective belief systems.
That said, because what is instinctively ‘good’ isn’t necessarily the best choice, I think we have to make a distinction between what we only feel is good, and what is also fair and logically sound. For example, you said, “Women walk around in next to nothing...and its okay.” I ask you, why is this immoral?
Have our morals eroded? I don’t think so.
While women are wearing thongs and lingerie, and Arnold Schwarzenegger is shooting people in the head with sawed-off shotguns, the industrialized world has banned slavery and established equality between gender and race. People are living longer and more comfortably, and they give more to charities than ever before. Heinous crimes are quickly cracked down upon. Etc. etc. etc.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Lol, haha........I find that I have a much better time if I pretend like I'm discussing something with a friend. I'm getting better, I still often fail, sometimes I get mad, but I try.
Yeah, people get hung up on this a lot.
Typically, micro and macro are defined as "change within a species" and "change between species," respectively. But, these are poor definitions, and, to my knowledge, biologists usually don't even use these terms. "Change between species" is particularly misleading because one species does NOT change into another currently existing organism. If this just means that the species shall evolve enough such that it cannot procreate with the ancestral species (what it used to be like), then there is no difference in mechanism between micro and macro at all. The only difference is time scale, as indicated by the prefixes. If you have a lot of micro, you get macro, because a lot of small changes equals a big change.
There are more theists who accept evolution than there are atheists. There are also biologists who believe in God and evolution.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/23200/Almost-Half-Americans-Believe-Humans-Did-Evolve.aspx
Well, lol, they gave you exactly all the same rights that you would have if you were actually free so there isn't any difference. And how would they take these rights away now if they wanted to? And who is they?
Uuh, I'm not sure what you're asking. What is a talent? That just means you're good at something, right?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Vaccines don't always prevent you from getting the illness you were vaccinated for. I got all my shots growing up, I still got the chickenpox. I got it bad, too...even had one on my eye...couldnt see for weeks. That article did make me wonder, though. Why would Dr.'s recommend shots to everyone, and then not give their own children the shot?? As the article said, they should have known better.
If I am married, it will be thier father's decision. If I am a single mother, they won't get their shots until they are old enough to decide if they want to take them or not. Children can't decide something like that until they are more mature. Maturity isn't about age, its about decision-making. And if you're wondering if I'll tell them vaccines are bad, I won't. When they are old enough, they can decide for themselves. But that is jumping the gun a little. I probably won't even have children.
2
"Oh say I'm happy!!"
But it is still my point of view. And people can still get the disease even if they have already had the vaccination. Know that from experience.
2
"Oh say I'm happy!!"
The problem is, vaccination decisions do not just affect the individual. If a significant number of children are not vaccinated in a community, it starts to dramatically raise the risk for every child in that community. And where this involves diseases that are typically caught by young children, putting the decision off till they are old enough to decide for themselves is way too late.
Some children cannot be vaccinated for various genetic and other reasons, and these kids have to rely on 'herd immunity', ie a high level of immunity in the rest of the children in the community to keep the diseases from spreading to those they are in contact with.
So your attitude is putting other peoples' children at risk. Does that not concern you? Even if you don't have children, you should not be encouraging other people to adopt such an irresponsible or ignorant attitude to vaccination.
This is not an imaginary scenario. It is happening now, as more communities reduce their rates of vaccination, due to either personal liberties attitudes or response to the anti-vaccination campaigners. This is killing children now.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
No... not really... why should it?
What does concern me, is letting weak children live long enough to reproduce... thereby reducing our "herds" strength in the long run, rather then the short one (which is what everyone, always seems to care about). Ah well, just a thought
What Would Kharn Do?
Allowing the 'selection out' of those with higher susceptibility to viruses is not necessarily going to be very effective. We are in an 'arms race' with these organisms - they evolve faster than we do. Far better to reduce the prevalence of these organisms to insignificant levels or wipe 'em out 'in the wild', as has been done with smallpox and close to with polio, thanks to vaccination.
Evolution in response to particular strong pressures is typically at the expense of more useful general improvement in ability to handle other stresses. We see this in specially bred or genetically-engineered organisms - they often can only thrive in our managed environments.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Lol, Doomy, some Christian is going to think you're serious and use it as proof that atheists are immoral.
Wait..........you're not serious, right?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
*The following is a purely fictional representation of Doomy's point of view, which may or may not contain any actual fact, or well thought out meaning*
Ah yes... "Over specialize, and you breed in weakness"
Do you not see any parralels between "they often can only thrive in our managed environments" and what humans are so intent on doing to themselves, with wide array's of vacinations bombarded upon all members of society from a young age, till death?
If a child NEEDs a flu vaccine every year just to survive the common cold, should they be allowed to reproduce if their children would possess the same weakness? Then what? an ever increasing population of humans who can only survive the most basic of illness by controlled measures. Wonderful!
What Would Kharn Do?
You never really know what i believe, or when im serious about something...
I am serious about this, but possibily not in the way that i directly portraid
And Christians cant use me as proof as i am a Khornate "worshipper"
What Would Kharn Do?
But we are encouraged today to accept everyone. Many don't and when they don't they are racist, sexist, or just generally small-minded. Small-mindedness is looked down upon, even though it could be argued(I'm not arguing this)that these people are just holding to their belief systems. Who can condemn that?
That doesn't make sense to me. Because genes are developed, so there would have to be a time when they didn't have that gene...right? Where does that survival of the fittest instinct come from? It had to develop, right? So there was a time when they didn't have even the most basic instinct, right?
Our morals are in our DNA? So there goes free choice. My children will be sexual predators because my dad was one?
2
"Oh say I'm happy!!"
Yes, I know. A vaccine simply prepares your immune system to fight off a potentially deadly disease.
But your immune system was able to defeat the disease. Thanks to the vaccine.
Uhm...the child wasn't born yet. The doctor caught the disease from an unvaccinated person while she was pregnant.
She did know better. But other people didn't want to know. So now her baby has permanent lung damage.
By then it will be too late. I'm sorry, but you will have to make the decision for them.
And the point is, if you don't give them the shots, you're not just putting your own kids in danger, but other people's children as well.
Why would you want to do that ?
There is no such instinct. It isn't even a good description of what makes evolution work.
The basic principle is that those life-forms that have a genetic makeup that tends to help them have more offspring will pass those genetic characteristics on, so those genes will tend to spread through the local group of interbreeding individuals. NOT 'fitness', having more kids is what makes natural selection work. Survival long enough to reproduce is obviously important, but beyond reproductive age, not so much.
Any critter which had little or no reaction to threats, IOW did not run away, would be less likely to survive. This is why we have an instinct to avoid threats. Such things only need to have a bit of random variation to allow such an impulse to start to show up, and natural selection will do the rest.
Regarding morals, serious studies and comparisons point to less nasty crimes being committed, than in previous eras, at least in more advanced countries. Such countries no longer support the oppression of women, slavery, child labour, torture (apart from such religiously motivated fools as GW Bush), burning people alive, stoning to death, etc . None of those things is condemned in the Bible, you will note.
Perception of seriousness of bad behaviour is a bit complicated by the availability of modern weapons and other technology, which allows one or a few deranged people to cause a lot of damage and death.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Uuuhh, who can condemn what? People that are racist, sexist, etc? I can?
I'm not sure I follow you.
The earliest life forms would have had some method of asexual reproduction, and that would have been all that was needed. As organisms increased in complexity, they would develop more characteristics to help them survive to reproduce. However, they would not need to suddenly possess a "survival of the fittest instinct" because there is no such thing. You have instincts that cause you to fear death. You have instincts that cause you to avoid pain. You have instincts that tell you to eat when you're hungry and drink when you're thirsty, etc. etc. etc. However, these do not correspond to specific genes either because it doesn't work that way.
Oh.......you're not going to like this, but I don't believe in free will either. I think there are atheists that do believe in support free will, but this website is pretty unanimous that it is nonsense.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/problems_notion_nonmaterial_aspect_conscious_process
http://www.rationalresponders.com/free_will_why_we_don039t_have_it_and_why_that039s_good_thing
Obviously, we seem to have the freedom to make decisions i.e. it feels like we are “free” simply because we do what we want to do and think what we want to think. However, given what know about the brain in the 21st century, there is simply no point at which our decisions and thoughts are not caused by our physical state.
It just means that there’s nothing ‘immaterial’ or ‘supernatural’ in the process. You do not control your brain and body. You are your brain and body. Your brain, developed via your genes, environment, chemical processes, etc., controls you. Or, to make it even clearer, there is no ‘essence’ or ‘form’ or ‘spirit’ or ‘soul’ or ‘free will’ of ‘butterbattle.’ There is no ‘butterbattle’ at all apart from the total output of all the billions(?) of bacteria, cells, organic molecules, and chemical interactions.
It’s not that simple. If it were, you’d be a sex offender too. You’re not a child molester, right?
Whether or not someone will be a sexual predator is determined by their personal beliefs, how they were raised, their environment, etc. Genes can be a factor, but not directly, since there’s no “sexual molestation” gene, lol. I’m kind of guessing now, but I suppose a person could possess a stronger physical attraction to others. They could also have a more aggressive personality, perhaps?
Does it really seem like humanity is worse off than it was several hundred years ago to you?
Think about it.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I am in the process of moving, so I've been packing and dealing with crisis situations of all sorts. My boss has me working six days a week. So, been pretty busy...every night I lay in bed going dang! I need to get online and check my mail. Happy Thanksgiving, BTW. Its my favorite holiday. Hope that you enjoy yours. This year I am thankful for friends and my job. I have it good.
I meant who can condemn people holding to thier belief systems? Who am I to tell someone what they believe is wrong, even if it is. Besides that, how can you say they are wrong if you don't even understand what they believe. That in itself is small-minded. Sexism, racism are wrong..pure and simple..I would never argue that they're not, but in some cultures women are not equal to men and are treated like dirt simply because that is what they believe is okay. And storming in telling these people that they are wrong, won't change what they believe, won't even prove they are wrong. So, whats the point? Accepting everyone means accepting the small-minded too, and yet we look down on the small-minded....which makes us small-minded, which makes us hypocrits. My point is that everyone believes something different. Even different Christians believe different things about God. Maybe I'm wrong (its happened before) but I don't think going around telling everyone that they are wrong just because its not what you believe is a good thing to do. I try not to, sometimes I do, but I always apologize when I realize I am wrong. I tell people what I believe if they ask....most people ask why I am so happy all the time.
Oh. Okay. I didn't know that. I thought instints where something that couldn't be helped, something that you were born with.
How depressing. I am not me, because I cannot choose to be me. My thought patterns are genetic...which scares me. I have lots of sexual predators and drug addicts in my family. I don't want that for me. I could end up bipolar, because my mom has it. I don't want that for me. Free will is hope to me.
...........maybe not.
2
"Oh say I'm happy!!"
Happy Thanksgiving!
Christmas is my favorite holiday though.
I agree....kind of. In real life, I've learned that it's a good idea to keep my opinions to myself. I have no problem with telling people that they're wrong, as long as it's done politely. It's just…there’s not much point in trying to pick a fight; it’s not worth it.
But, for me, it's different when beliefs lead to human rights abuses. Even if there are people out there that can't change...doesn't it ever get to the point where you feel like they just need to be stopped? I mean, like when teenage girls in Muslim countries get stoned to death by a mob for committing adultery (i.e. getting gang raped). Shouldn't we try to stop these things? Shouldn't we try to help? People have the right to believe what they want, but they don't have the right to take away the rights of others using their false beliefs as justification. Our beliefs don't always exist in a void; they affect how we think and what we do.Well, you are born with them, but they're not something that "can't be helped" in the sense that you are not forced to do anything. You merely possess a desire to do things.
I think I can understand that. Many of my beliefs are often considered depressing, hopeless, barren, dangerous, etc. by those who disagree, and they’re not really incorrect. Who wants to think that morality is just a human concept, an abstraction to explain our instincts? Who wants to think that death is the end, that your consciousness will disappear forever, and you’ll just decompose like any other animal? Who wants to accept that there will never be justice for those who commit heinous crimes and get away with it? However, the bottom line is that these things don’t make a claim any more or less credible. So, I personally find it extremely suspicious when people’s belief systems cater to exactly what they want, and they argue against other belief systems with appeals to consequences. Free will is hope to you? That’s fine, but that doesn’t make free will any more likely to exist. Of course, you didn’t explicitly make that claim, but it is a fallacy that is committed time and time again, so I think it helps to know it.
Right. There isn’t some immaterial aspect of you that independently believes things and makes decisions, but I’m not sure what you mean by ‘your beliefs are not your own.’ You’re probably thinking something along the lines of, ‘I am controlled by molecules,’ and while this isn’t really incorrect, it would be better to say that, ‘You ARE your molecules,” because, of course, you are.
Regardless of whether your thoughts and actions are completely determined by natural processes, you are autonomous, and you feel like you have control, so for practical purposes, there’s really no difference. You don’t want to be a child molester? Well then…….don’t be a child molester.
Let’s say you choose to eat a muffin. Either your decision to eat the muffin was determined by some “soul/free will spirit” or “natural processes” or a combination of the two. Whatever it was, there’s no way to tell the difference.
Sigh…I’m having a hard time explaining this.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Christmas is okay. I just don't like the greed that comes out around Christmas. I want....I want...me...me...me. It seems so selfish. I'd rather be thankful for what I already had.
I do enjoy the opportunity it gives me to spend time with my family. I have five brothers and three sisters all younger than me...and I adore them all. I get to give them surprises and watch their faces light up when they open them...There is nothing better than seeing that joy and knowing you chose something that they loved. Better to give than to recieve...is so true in my life...I hate getting gifts. I love giving them.
I so agree. It is so hard to let it go sometimes. I have to humble myself and let the other person be right. It's so frustrating, especially if I am sure I am right. But I can for the sake of peace. Humility and peace go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. But if you continue to argue your point and in the end prove you are right, but in the process have crushed the other person, its just not worth it.
If you don't believe in free will, do you believe in choice? And are they the same thing?
No, I meant that I can't choose what I believe because it is already in me? I was born believing what I am going to believe my whole life?
So..it doesn't really matter???? And it seems to me a little bit contradictory.
Its okay. Just stick with it. I am interested to know.
2
"Oh say I'm happy!!"
Me? Haha, very little. Pretty much nothing.
I agree that we should always try to change people’s minds first, but I don’t think force is always pointless.
If people cannot be convinced that what they’re doing is wrong and allowing them to continue their actions will lead to further human rights abuses, then, there are some cases (e.g. holocaust) where I see nothing wrong with fighting back with force; a lot of times, the perpetrators can be subdued. Often, there will be more death, but often, we can save more lives, and the life of one innocent person who just wants to be left alone is worth more to me than the lives of 100 rampaging suicide bombers. The bloodshed doesn’t always come back equally like some category error of Newton’s third law; it really does work a lot of the time.
I agree, actually. You’re saying, we can’t always choose our circumstances, but we can always choose how we respond to them, right?
Oh…I don’t know. I never use the term ‘choice’ non-colloquially. How do you define it?
Your beliefs can change. They’re ‘determined’ by natural processes, but they’re not ‘predetermined,’ in that they haven’t happened yet.
To me, it’s like “destiny” in this sense. Either you are destined to do things or you aren’t. But, if you don’t know what you’re destined to do, what exactly are you going to do differently for either case?
How?
Okay, thanks.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Okay, I see your point. Sometimes force is needed. Like when you are training your child....you eventually have to punish them for bad behavior...even if you dont want to. So, yes, it makes sense. But trying to change the minds of an entire civilization...or culture..or religion...is usually futile, even when using force. You just have to let them be who they are, and (unless they start the next holocaust) trust the Lord for it, and pray....(thats what I would do). Maybe that response is unlogical, but I have to accept that I cant change anyones mind...I just let them be who they are and live what they believe. They let me be who I am, I can extend the same courtesy to them. That doesnt stop me from being a friend, and being kind to them.
A little bit off subject, but What would you do if the United States started putting Christians into concentration camps for what they believe? Or African Americans for their color? Or Ashkonozi Jews for being Ashkonozi?
and our attitude about them, yes, that is exactly what I mean.
It may not be the dictionary definition, but when I say choice I mean deciding how you will respond to something or which direction you will take your life or which thing to do is the right thing and which is the wrong and which you will do.
I see what you mean...but it isnt free will that makes you decide what you are going to do....or choose what you are destined to do, its chemical process?
It did when I wrote that, but I dont remember how now....LOL. should have written it then.
*******
Merry Christmas!! I hope that you have a good Christmas break. I am going to be very busy these next few weeks, and I suspect you will be too. I am headed to Florida to visit my dad before moving to New Mexico. (which keeps getting put off later and later because things keep coming up) Have a Happy New Year also!!
2
"Oh say I'm happy!!"
Merry Christmas, curious_george! And Happy New Year! I hope you’re having fun in Florida.
I’m writing this on Christmas Eve, lol. I can’t wait for everyone to open their presents!
Haha, we always disagree with on some topic. If I pushed away every friend that I disagreed with on something, then I wouldn’t have any friends. And, I would never try to take away someone’s freedom of belief, as long as they don’t trespass on the rights of others.
Um, I think you can change individuals. People change their beliefs all the time because of things that they experience. Of course, it depends on the person, and it probably won’t happen right away, but it happens.
Probably petition. Protest. Etc.
If I had a friend who was Christian or African American or an Ashkonozi (what is Ashkonozi?) Jew, I would probably try to protect them.
Okay, then yes, you have a choice. As long as we establish what “you” is referring to.
Uuuuhhh……..right?
Let’s recap. I don’t believe that we have souls or spirits; I believe that we are purely the grand total of many natural processes. Our beliefs are influenced by genes, thoughts, and environments. So, I think that everything is determined, at least at the macro level, including what you believe.
All I’m saying is that it’s possible that we are controlled by “destiny” or “fate,” but not exactly in the way that people usually use the term. As in, if you could somehow analyze the behaviors and interactions of every elementary particle in a person’s body throughout the next thirty years and all the particles that had an effect on the person, then, theoretically, you’ll be able to predict everything about them in 30 years with 100% accuracy. The natural processes that culminate in your choices do not obey any different physical laws than a baseball falling towards the Earth; the former is just a lot more complicated. So, of course, your beliefs can change, but whatever you choose to believe, you choose because of who you are, and who you are is completely the result of natural processes. You are not born with your beliefs “in you” because that would imply that genes are the only the factor nor do you always go with what your parents believe because that would imply that your parents are the only factor. But anyways, it’s possible that everything that has ever happened in the universe led up to you believing what you believe in a completely non-random chain of events.
However, the way it’s different from the traditional understanding of fate is that we can’t know that something is inevitably going to happen. To me, that would be ridiculous. As Nicholas Cage said in the move, “Next,” “The funny thing about the future is that it changes every time you look at it, because you looked at it.” The very knowledge that something bad is going to happen would affect your choices, causing you to avoid that bad thing. If Julius Caesar had taken the soothsayer’s warning seriously, he could have avoided Brutus and Cassius on the ide of March.
Ergo, I don’t think it’s possible to know your “fate,” as that would allow you to avoid it. However, if you don’t know your fate, it’s silly to think about it all the time, since you don’t know what it is! This is why I think the question of free will is pointless for any practical purpose.
I’m not sure what you mean. When we get deep into this stuff, we really have to clearly define everything.
If free will is just whatever makes us decide what we decide, then free will exists. It’ll be synonymous with your brain.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Christmas Eve!! Lol...you must've been bored. Get anything exciting for Christmas??
you as in the universal you.
2
"Oh say I'm happy!!"
Lol, writing about atheism at midnight on Christmas Eve. That has to be a sin.
Lots of stuff. Clothes. Chocolates. Etc. A coffee maker!
Of course, the best part was watching my girlfriend open one of her presents from me. It was like a dolphin statue thingy.
Aww...are you kidding? No, I would never do anything like that. I don't know anyone on this website that would go, uuuhh, destroy you.
Yep, but also really really hard. In fact, so hard that it'll most likely only ever be possible in theory.
Well, genes ARE the result of a natural process.
Uuuhh, yes? Maybe I'm confusing the issue with this talk about natural processes. All I'm saying is,
- Our choices are based on many different variables. Complex algorithms?
- As far as we know, there’s nothing random about it. Maybe chaotic? (I’d rather not talk about quantum mechanics).
- And there’s, as far as we know, nothing supernatural about it.
Pretty much.
Right. At first, it may seem like the individual who knows that they are fated to do something, but doesn’t know what it is has quite an interesting puzzle to solve. But, really, this person might as well go on with his/her business. It wouldn’t be justified to say, “Oh, I know fate is coming my way, so I better do something different.” If it’s fate, then whatever you end up doing is whatever you were supposed to do.
Yep. I do not believe there is any intrinsic ‘meaning.’ Similarly, I do not believe in objective morality. I believe these are human concepts, abstractions of intuitions and feelings that we weren’t able to understand.
If someone asked me what the purpose of life was, my response (seriously) would be that I couldn’t answer the question because ‘purpose’ is ill-defined and ‘life’ is ambiguous.
Life, as in the biological process, has no ‘meaning’ or ‘purpose.’ Purpose requires reason, desire, a conscious intent. Life has nothing like that. We are often tempted to say that the purpose of life is to reproduce, but even this is a bit of a fallacy, as life is not ‘trying’ to reproduce. I think it would be better to say that this is a function of life.
The only entities we know of that have purpose or assign meaning (maybe a few other vertebrates?) are humans, and different humans have different purposes. So, to me, searching for meaning (as well as morality) isn’t much different, in a logical sense, than finding something that appeals to you aesthetically.
So, what’s the meaning of life? Well, what kind of ice cream do you like?
Oh, here. You’re not an atheist, but this is related to what we’re talking about.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/new_atheists_really_all_there
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Aww, where are you curious_george? I was enjoying this conversation too much.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Packing and what-not...every night I lay in bed going...dang! I forgot to get on again. I'm gonna go reply to your other post now.
2
"Oh say I'm happy!!"
Lol, I don't think so...I don't even think Christmas is a Christian holiday....
mmmm.....coffee...which reminds me...I haven't had mine yet.
Most of me was kidding. Some of me was serious. But don't worry I always write the serious part of me off as crazy...lol
-ok. (shuddering at the word algorithms)
-I will join your lets not talk about quantum mechanics club.
-ok.
YES!!!!!!! I GOT IT!!!!!! ( doing a happy dance)
Do you take decisions as seriously, then? When you were trying to decide what college you were going to go to did you put a lot of thought and time into that decision?
So where do our feelings(emotions) come from?
right. I agree with that too.
So then, when you love someone...is that pointless too? And are humans even capable of love...or is it just a desire to reproduce? People are always searching for joy. They are always searching for love. Always searching for peace. Ask the people who have lived, the elderly, the wise-ones. what did they spend their life searching for...what is the most important thing in life...and a good majority will answer love. Because with love comes joy, and peace. What do you search for?
I will try to get back on before I move. I am leaving March 22 to move...and I wont have a computer untill I get settled and even then it will probably be at the library.
2
"Oh say I'm happy!!"