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Religion

Posted on: July 4, 2012 - 7:03pm
The Theist
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Religion

I think one of the foremost important things in an atheist vs. theist debate is the acknowledgement of apostate religion being, with the aid of an even potentially more destructive endeavor of mankind throughout history, as potentially dangerous itself. There can be no doubt about this. Organized religion is simply any paradigm which is embraced by the masses and therefore rife with potential abuse. 

Organized religion insists that you ask no questions simply because by that stage in the game they have no answers or the answers are only a distraction to their political agenda. It is socially and intellectually oppressive but that in and of itself isn't to say there is no thought in it. Religion is misused by the masses as a weapon, not a crutch.

In the Book of Revelation Jehovah God promises to destroy first organized religion and then the governments of men and commerce. They are very much alike, and harmful to the human race.

‹ Moody's Downgrades Italy by Two Notches Nestled In The Confines Of Kindness (Shelter From The Storm) ›

Posted on: July 4, 2012 - 8:02pm #1
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Been a while. I must say

Been a while. I must say nice new avatar.

"Religion is misused by the masses as a weapon, not a crutch."-you said.

I no longer see any good or proper use of religion of any kind in any way.

I used to think if belief in a god was comforting or encouraging to people then that's just fine.

Everyone should have the right to self-delusion, but I seriously doubt in all history that anyone has ever kept their fantasies to themselves or included a disclaimer that they are purely without evidence and have no basis to be held as fact and should not be tried at home.

Delusions can only retard and distort thinking and progress.

In my experience when one shares their fantasies of a god they are impressing on others that such delusions are reality based and can be put to good use.

I'll repeat it 100 times. God is a fantasy. To share a fantasy as a living truth is to lie. And so God is a lie.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


Posted on: July 4, 2012 - 8:20pm #2
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tonyjeffers wrote:Been a

tonyjeffers wrote:
Been a while. I must say nice new avatar.

Notice how the gold in the avatar matches the gold in The Theist Logo? Very nice indeed.

tonyjeffers wrote:
"Religion is misused by the masses as a weapon, not a crutch."-you said.

I no longer see any good or proper use of religion of any kind in any way.

I used to think if belief in a god was comforting or encouraging to people then that's just fine.

Everyone should have the right to self-delusion, but I seriously doubt in all history that anyone has ever kept their fantasies to themselves or included a disclaimer that they are purely without evidence and have no basis to be held as fact and should not be tried at home.

I suppose you and I differ in that, to me, the most loathsome thing about religion is the transmogrification of the original teachings of the Bible.

We are a social creature and nothing we believe in is kept to ourselves unless it is going to get us into some kind of trouble.

I think that people have a right to self-delusion, though, of course you and I differ on what that might entail. But I used to think that without evidence people had no point to believe in anything; I have changed in that I now think what business is it of mine? If they want to believe in evolution or in God or the Easter bunny without reason, who am I to question? I still think that if one is going to make some public proclamation they should be informed and prepared to be called out on it.

tonyjeffers wrote:
Delusions can only retard and distort thinking and progress.

In my experience when one shares their fantasies of a god they are impressing on others that such delusions are reality based and can be put to good use.

I'll repeat it 100 times. God is a fantasy. To share a fantasy as a living truth is to lie. And so God is a lie.

Can you really say, with any more confidence than the believer, whether or not God is a fantasy? If you are right then all that might have been accomplished is that you robbed some people of their harmless delusion. If you are wrong you may have robbed them of everlasting life in paradise. A very important alleged truth.


Posted on: July 4, 2012 - 9:22pm #3
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Religion is crap and Jesus

[EDITED FOR CONTENT, THIS IS THE KILL EM WITH KINDNESS FORUM]


Posted on: July 4, 2012 - 9:43pm #4
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"Can you really say, with

"Can you really say, with any more confidence than the believer, whether or not God is a fantasy?"-Theist

Degree of confidence is irrelevant. No amount of belief makes something a fact, no matter how sincere the believer.  Fantasy is that which comes from one's imagination.  If gods did not come from imagination, then where?

 

"If you are right then all that might have been accomplished is that you robbed some people of their harmless delusion."-Theist

Again I address the retardation of thinking and progress. I don't see that as harmless. Take medical science as one example.

 

"If you are wrong you may have robbed them of everlasting life in paradise. A very important alleged truth."-Theist

Call me selfish I guess, but after-life's are not important to me.  No more important than the hope of a future where I can be a shape-shifter with laser blasters that shoot out my pupils.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


Posted on: July 9, 2012 - 12:58pm #5
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Posted on: July 9, 2012 - 12:58pm #6
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Posted on: July 8, 2012 - 4:47pm #7
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The Theist wrote:I think one

The Theist wrote:

I think one of the foremost important things in an atheist vs. theist debate is the acknowledgement of apostate religion being, with the aid of an even potentially more destructive endeavor of mankind throughout history, as potentially dangerous itself. There can be no doubt about this. Organized religion is simply any paradigm which is embraced by the masses and therefore rife with potential abuse. 

Organized religion insists that you ask no questions simply because by that stage in the game they have no answers or the answers are only a distraction to their political agenda. It is socially and intellectually oppressive but that in and of itself isn't to say there is no thought in it. Religion is misused by the masses as a weapon, not a crutch.

In the Book of Revelation Jehovah God promises to destroy first organized religion and then the governments of men and commerce. They are very much alike, and harmful to the human race.

There is no way to separate the established myths of antiquity in regards to the gods of Abraham. They were organizations and God was their mafia boss. "I have a personal relationship with God" is a back peddle. You are still drawing your belief from organized religion which is why the book became popular. If it didn't gain popularity, and then eventual political backing, it would have failed. Same with Hebrew and Islam. It became organized and then popular through political support.

Credulity is dangerous to humans, governments are a necessity. Otherwise why have speed limits? Society has to pass laws to agree to 25mph in a school zone.

 

Here is the reality, skip the labels. The reality is that we are social creatures. If we had no government we would be a lawless society. I don't want that, and don't be stupid and claim you want that.

 

So since religion isn't going anywhere, and government is needed to remain civil, the question becomes, how do you allow personal freedom, without a monopoly of power taking hold in any direction.

 

No law is absurd as a concept. Monopoly law based on tribal books is ALSO absurd. Iran has order and laws and even speed limits, but I doubt, you and I would want to live there.

 

So the reality isn't our common beliefs that make us civil, what makes us civil is a ban on absolute power, and basing law on COMMON LAW, not common label.

 

You have no clue how Thomas Jefferson had BOTH your interest and mine in thought. Your post above was a very weak attempt at a back peddle because you got called out by me.

Religious law is absurd in a plural society because we all believe different things. But where the heck do you think no law would work? Or when you say "no law" you mean "no law" but the laws of your pet deity, whom you falsely claim is not a fan of organized religion?

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


Posted on: July 10, 2012 - 11:54am #8
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Are you upset because of

Brian37 wrote:

The Theist wrote:

I think one of the foremost important things in an atheist vs. theist debate is the acknowledgement of apostate religion being, with the aid of an even potentially more destructive endeavor of mankind throughout history, as potentially dangerous itself. There can be no doubt about this. Organized religion is simply any paradigm which is embraced by the masses and therefore rife with potential abuse. 

Organized religion insists that you ask no questions simply because by that stage in the game they have no answers or the answers are only a distraction to their political agenda. It is socially and intellectually oppressive but that in and of itself isn't to say there is no thought in it. Religion is misused by the masses as a weapon, not a crutch.

In the Book of Revelation Jehovah God promises to destroy first organized religion and then the governments of men and commerce. They are very much alike, and harmful to the human race.

There is no way to separate the established myths of antiquity in regards to the gods of Abraham. They were organizations and God was their mafia boss. "I have a personal relationship with God" is a back peddle. You are still drawing your belief from organized religion which is why the book became popular. If it didn't gain popularity, and then eventual political backing, it would have failed. Same with Hebrew and Islam. It became organized and then popular through political support.

Credulity is dangerous to humans, governments are a necessity. Otherwise why have speed limits? Society has to pass laws to agree to 25mph in a school zone.

 

Here is the reality, skip the labels. The reality is that we are social creatures. If we had no government we would be a lawless society. I don't want that, and don't be stupid and claim you want that.

 

So since religion isn't going anywhere, and government is needed to remain civil, the question becomes, how do you allow personal freedom, without a monopoly of power taking hold in any direction.

 

No law is absurd as a concept. Monopoly law based on tribal books is ALSO absurd. Iran has order and laws and even speed limits, but I doubt, you and I would want to live there.

 

So the reality isn't our common beliefs that make us civil, what makes us civil is a ban on absolute power, and basing law on COMMON LAW, not common label.

 

You have no clue how Thomas Jefferson had BOTH your interest and mine in thought. Your post above was a very weak attempt at a back peddle because you got called out by me.

Religious law is absurd in a plural society because we all believe different things. But where the heck do you think no law would work? Or when you say "no law" you mean "no law" but the laws of your pet deity, whom you falsely claim is not a fan of organized religion?

 

Europeanism or Christianity.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith and I'm not a Theist

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


Posted on: July 10, 2012 - 12:29pm #9
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Not bad, very close.

The Theist wrote:

I think one of the foremost important things in an atheist vs. theist debate is the acknowledgement of apostate religion being, with the aid of an even potentially more destructive endeavor of mankind throughout history, as potentially dangerous itself. There can be no doubt about this. Organized religion is simply any paradigm which is embraced by the masses and therefore rife with potential abuse. 

Organized religion insists that you ask no questions simply because by that stage in the game they have no answers or the answers are only a distraction to their political agenda. It is socially and intellectually oppressive but that in and of itself isn't to say there is no thought in it. Religion is misused by the masses as a weapon, not a crutch.

In the Book of Revelation Jehovah God promises to destroy first organized religion and then the governments of men and commerce. They are very much alike, and harmful to the human race.

There are now two understandings of Christianity. From my guys (Brand -A) and the old Euro type (Brand-X). Brand X cannot accomplish what you state---Brand A will. You are correct, The purpose of Christianity is to remove and replace man operated government, civilization. The keys to this process is found within the book. Civilization is a religion of the belief in materialism. In civilization material is "the way". In Brand -A, the spiritual self and it's makeup is the center of belief. Brand-X is the world at large, past and present. Brand-X has been here for 6000 to 7000 years with no improvement. It's the same today as when it was instituted.  It doesn't make any difference who says they are Christian or anything else. Everyone of Brand-X and civilization are the same. Beliefs may be slightly different but personages are the same. IE_ the state of mind of those claiming to be Christian are the same as those who claim to be Atheist---but what is believed in is different. If those claiming Atheism had their own society in any geographic location and those claiming Christianity had theirs in another place it would be found that both experience the same consequences. They would both be exactly the same. The social structure would be the same. Both would have thieves, liars, polititians (same as liars), predatory practices, dishonesty, etc--you get the picture. Why would that be?????

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith and I'm not a Theist

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


Posted on: July 10, 2012 - 4:53pm #10
Brian37
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Old Seer wrote:Brian37

Old Seer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

The Theist wrote:

I think one of the foremost important things in an atheist vs. theist debate is the acknowledgement of apostate religion being, with the aid of an even potentially more destructive endeavor of mankind throughout history, as potentially dangerous itself. There can be no doubt about this. Organized religion is simply any paradigm which is embraced by the masses and therefore rife with potential abuse. 

Organized religion insists that you ask no questions simply because by that stage in the game they have no answers or the answers are only a distraction to their political agenda. It is socially and intellectually oppressive but that in and of itself isn't to say there is no thought in it. Religion is misused by the masses as a weapon, not a crutch.

In the Book of Revelation Jehovah God promises to destroy first organized religion and then the governments of men and commerce. They are very much alike, and harmful to the human race.

There is no way to separate the established myths of antiquity in regards to the gods of Abraham. They were organizations and God was their mafia boss. "I have a personal relationship with God" is a back peddle. You are still drawing your belief from organized religion which is why the book became popular. If it didn't gain popularity, and then eventual political backing, it would have failed. Same with Hebrew and Islam. It became organized and then popular through political support.

Credulity is dangerous to humans, governments are a necessity. Otherwise why have speed limits? Society has to pass laws to agree to 25mph in a school zone.

 

Here is the reality, skip the labels. The reality is that we are social creatures. If we had no government we would be a lawless society. I don't want that, and don't be stupid and claim you want that.

 

So since religion isn't going anywhere, and government is needed to remain civil, the question becomes, how do you allow personal freedom, without a monopoly of power taking hold in any direction.

 

No law is absurd as a concept. Monopoly law based on tribal books is ALSO absurd. Iran has order and laws and even speed limits, but I doubt, you and I would want to live there.

 

So the reality isn't our common beliefs that make us civil, what makes us civil is a ban on absolute power, and basing law on COMMON LAW, not common label.

 

You have no clue how Thomas Jefferson had BOTH your interest and mine in thought. Your post above was a very weak attempt at a back peddle because you got called out by me.

Religious law is absurd in a plural society because we all believe different things. But where the heck do you think no law would work? Or when you say "no law" you mean "no law" but the laws of your pet deity, whom you falsely claim is not a fan of organized religion?

 

 

Europeanism or Christianity.

True Scotsman fallacy. If a variety of sects of ANY given religion have the same super hero, then they have the same super hero.

Marketing is what makes an idea work, good or bad, political, religious or business. Europeans did not invent Jesus, that was a splinter cult of Hebrews whom had splintered off of the prior polytheism of Mesopotamia.

Marketing does not equal truth, it just means if it is successful, there are enough credulous in our species evolution who swallow the first good  sounding placebo emotional lay that is thrown at them. A self inflicted emotional woo.

"Sounds good, lets go with it"

 

You can blame Europeans all you want for our modern "misunderstanding" of the same super hero named Jesus humans still kill for. But what you or your "I got it right" claimants don't want to see is that neither the people you want to blame, you, or people of other religions are all doing IS THE SAME STUPID CRAP OUR SPECIES HAS ALWAYS DONE,    WE MAKE UP GODS BECAUSE WE ARE TOO STUPID TO ACCEPT REALITY!

Don't you  realize that Jews and Muslims pull this same tactic of "I am right and they are wrong even within their own label" tripe  you are trying to pull now.

How about a dose of simplicity. HUMANS MAKE UP GODS! You do, other Christians do, Muslims do, the ancient Egyptians did, Romans did.. ect ect ect.

 

Why do humans market fantasy? Because our evolution is not label dependent. If we market even as individuals to the point we convince a female to mate with us, THAT, NOT LABELS, is what gets us to the point of reproduction. EVEN IF A LIE DOES THE TRICK!

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


Posted on: July 10, 2012 - 4:56pm #11
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Brian37 wrote:  True

Brian37 wrote:

 

 

True Scotsman fallacy. If a variety of sects of ANY given religion have the same super hero, then they have the same super hero.

Marketing is what makes an idea work, good or bad, political, religious or business. Europeans did not invent Jesus, that was a splinter cult of Hebrews whom had splintered off of the prior polytheism of Mesopotamia.

Marketing does not equal truth, it just means if it is successful, there are enough credulous in our species evolution who swallow the first good  sounding placebo emotional lay that is thrown at them. A self inflicted emotional woo.

"Sounds good, lets go with it"

 

You can blame Europeans all you want for our modern "misunderstanding" of the same super hero named Jesus humans still kill for. 

 

 

 

I agree 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno