*this is a long post and i apologize if i repeat the same thing over. i tried to bold and italicizing the main points for the speed readers.

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i understand a need for separation of church and state. i understand that in some ways christainity may have hindered the growth of science and maybe other areas. i know that religion has done a lot of bad things. what is the conclusion that you are looking for?

are you truly seeking to eradicate beliefs or simply to improve our society? people are always going to believe what they want and if you think you are able to take that away, i feel that is a highly irrational goal. the end result could end up very badly especially when you start blaming others and slap them with a predefined burden. do you think force should be implied to these "so called" delusional and mentally disturbed people? do you think calling us delusional and mentally disturbed is an effective way to make them consider their errors?

Got your attention? Hah. Yah, no, not really gonna make that argument.. or perhaps I am, I don't know.

I'm just going to work through some bullet points and present a grip of conditional statements which, to me, seem necessary..

Of course.. I could be wrong but time to try...

So.. here we go.

Science: The universe has been around for X time.

Theistic Theology: The universe has been around for X time.

Options: For the purpose of this exercise we will be defining “universe” as “everything”. “Everything” will be defined as all material things.. which I assume includes “energy and matter” but may, at some point if we so perceive or infer it, include other categories.

Maybe I'm just stupid or something, but I don't understand why anyone who believes that death brings one to paradise would react to death the same way as someone like myself you thinks an afterlife of any kind is unlikely.

Diests believe in a kind of "higher power", but certainly not the theist god....I myself tend to go back and forth betweend deism and agnosticism. just wondering what the general opinion is on deism here?

So here is my point, you may have heard this argument before but hey here is just once point.

To be a True Atheist you must know without a doubt that there is no God, which would make you all knowing, which in return would make you God yourself.

you cannot be an atheist only agnostic!!!!!

This post relates to the christians who tell us that believers go to heaven while non-believers go to hell. That God cares only for faith and not works. When these christians are asked what happens to the people who never heard of Christ all but the harshest of fundies tell us that God will not punnish them for non belief because it would be unfair since they never had the opportunity to believe.

If this is the case, why spread the word? why have churches? If mankind forgets Christ then everyone gets a free pass into heaven. By telling someone who would otherwise not have heard of Jesus you are creating the potential of going to hell. Clearly teaching them God's word is not in their interests, so why do it. Is it because spreading the word will earn you brownie points with God by demonstrating your own faith? If so then to do so is incredibly selfish. Impress God by creating te risk of hell for others.

Ok, this post is for all the other theists who want to chime in on my other thread, entitled, Attn Dylan.

Here's the question:

What has religion contributed to society that couldn't have been contributed without god belief?

Simple enough.  Anybody?

While this thread is posted in AvT, I'd appreciate it if, at least for a few posts, everyone allow Dylan and me to have the floor. Once we get the first couple of posts out of the way, feel free to jump in, but I'd like for Dylan to have the floor, unimpeded at least long enough to make all the points he wants to make. Thanks in advance!

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Ok, Dylan, here are my major premises from Pineapple's thread, hopefully condensed a bit and easily managable.

1) Theism is dangerous and harmful to society.

A) Gregory S. Paul has documented with clarity that without exception, among modern countries, the most religious societies are also the most dysfunctional with regard to violent crime, sex crime, teen pregnancy and rates of STDs.

People who believe in God--may not all agree what God is. 10 people may say they believe in God--but they all may have a different definition/explanation of what God is. Therefore, on the surface it seems they are in some sort of agreement--but depending on their beliefs about God--there may actually be spaces of disagreement between each of these 10 as there are between any one of them and an atheist.

So, I'd like to pose the question: IF you belive in God--how would you define that God? And if you DON'T believe in God--how would you define what it is you don't believe in.

Perhaps, some who do believe in God also wouldn't believe in the God as defined by some atheists.