Discussion moved here from "RRS Defeats Way of the Master" thread 

Tilberian and Scottmax:

Thanks for your replies. We'd probably all agree that the burden of proof is usually on the one pushing a positive claim.  Let me review the exchange so far. Scottmax, along with RRS, make the following claim.

Claim: theists are irrational to the extent that they believe in God.

I pointed out several analytic theist philosophers who believe in God. Now, since the burden of proof usually falls on the one who advances a positive claim, and since Scottmax and RRS made the claim above, I asked that they (1) clarify their claim, and (2) support their claim by pointing out the irrationality of these philosophers’ theistic beliefs.

I'm a pretty simple guy. I enjoy eating macaroni and cheese. I like to eat mine with a fork. My friend prefers a spoon. It would seem to me that, rationally, a spoon would be a more efficient tool for macaroni consumption. Using a spoon, one could scoop up more macaroni with less effort, and finish eating more quickly. And yet I use a fork. Why? Because eating efficiency is not my concern? Certainly not; I shovel as much macaroni into my mouth as I can get onto the fork. So why? Why do I insist on eating with a fork?  The answer, of course, is simple. I eat with a fork because I want to. I like eating with the fork.

Ladies and gentlemen I would like you all to know that I’m starting this post off by first confessing I am a theist and wish to pass a new form of wisdom with no threat of indoctrination.

First of all let me clear the air by stating that most Theists do not think you lack morality. Here are the moral virtues that all of you naturally possess.

Why is it said that a God is the start of everything? Is it not obvious that the statement is false? I have never seen an argument for what created God. Theists automatically point to blind faith. A complete dodge of the question. If you admit something created you, how can you not ask what created that?

A thread in the Biblical Errancy forum got sidetracked onto a discussion of whether or not homosexuality is harmful. If you want to see the beginnings of this thread click here and scroll down to the last post on the page. The discussion continues on pages 3 and 4, where I am now going to try to move it to this new thread.

1. God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17
2. As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond. 4:12
3. God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
4. How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Ex.12:40 and Gal.3:17 say 430 years. 15:13
5. "In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Isaac (Gen.21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26), Levi (Gen.35:22-23), Kohath (Ex.6:16), Amramn (Ex.6:18), and Moses (Ex.6:20). 15:16
6. God promises Abram's descendants the land of Canaan from the Nile to the Euphrates. But according to Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13 God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 15:18
7. God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 26:4
8. God renames Jacob twice (32:28, 35:10 ). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway (47:28-29). And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 32:28, 35:10
9. God calls Jacob Jacob, though he said in Gen.32:28 and 35:10 that he would no longer be called Jacob but Israel. 46:2
10. God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
11. The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. 49:10
12. "He washed his garments in wine ... His eyes shall be red with wine."
    Did Judah really wash his clothes in wine? Were his eyes bloodshot from drinking too much? Or is this a prophecy of Jesus? (I didn't know Jesus had a drinking problem.) 49:11-12
13. Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel. Gen.50:24

    Exodus

14. God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 33:2
15. In this verse God says he will write on the stone tablets, but in 34:27 he tells Moses to do the writing. 34:1 Leviticus-->

    Numbers

16. "If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will ... speak unto him in a dream." Now there's a reliable way to communicate with someone! 12:6

    Deuteronomy

17. God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 7:1
18. God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But according to Joshua ( 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13) and Judges (1:21, 27-36, 3:1-5) there were some people they just couldn't kill. 7:24
19. Those who do as God says will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. 7:14-15
20. Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5
21. False prophets are to be (you guessed it) executed. How do you know who is a false prophet? By whether or not their predictions come true. (Watch out Jehovah's Witnesses!) 18:20
22. Misquoted in Rom.10:8. 30:14
23. God promises to "destroy these nations before thee." That he didn't keep his promise see Jos.15:63, 16:10, Jg.1:21, 1:27-36, and 3:1-5. 31:3-6
24. :

25. :

26. :

27. :

28. :

29. :

30. :

31. :

32. : -->

    Joshua

33. God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5
34. Joshua tells the Israelites that God will "without fail" drive out the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But later, the Bible tells us that he could not drive them out. 3:10
35. This verse says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity. 8:28
36. God promised the Israelites that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they pass through. But this verse shows that he didn't keep his promise since he couldn't drive out the Jebusites. 15:63
37. "And they drave not out the Canaanites." Once again God fails keep his promise to destroy all the people the Israelites encounter. 16:10
38. The Israelites, contrary to God's promises to them, could not drive out the Canaanites. 17:12-13
39. Joshua tells Manasseh that he will be able to drive out the Canaanites, but it turns out (see Jg.1:27-28) that he couldn't do it. 17:17-18
40. According to these verses, God fulfilled his promise to give the Israelites all of the lands that they encountered. But in several places the Bible tells us that these promises were not kept. 21:43-45
41. :

42. :

43. :

44. :

45. :

46. :

47. : -->

    Judges

48. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 1:21, 27-30
49. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 3:1-5
50. :

51. :

52. :

53. :

54. : --> Ruth--> 1 Samuel-->

    2 Samuel

55. God says that Solomon's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16
56. :

57. :

58. :

59. :

60. : -->

    1 Kings

61. God puts a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his prophets. 22:22
62. :

63. : -->

    2 Kings

64. God promises Josiah that he will have a peaceful death. But Josiah's death was anything but peaceful. (2 Kg.23:29-30, 2 Chr.35:23-24) 22:20
65. In Jeremiah (34:4) God tells Zedekiah that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But this verse and Jer.52:10-11 say that he died a violent death in a foreign land. 25:7
66. :

67. :

68. :

69. : --> 1 Chronicles-->

    2 Chronicles

70. God puts lies into the mouths of his prophets and speaks evil about people. 18:21-22
71. Josiah died from an arrow wound in battle, not "in peace" as is promised in 2 Kg.22:20. 35:23
72. :

73. :

74. :

75. :

76. : --> Ezra--> Nehemiah--> Esther--> Job-->

    Psalms

77. Misquoted in Heb.10:5-6. 40:6
78. Misquoted in Eph.4:8, which says: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
    Paul changed the words and meaning of the psalm from "received gifts" to "gave gifts". 68:18
79. Misquoted in Mt.13:35. 78:2-3
80. "I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 89:3-4, 34-37
81. :

82. :

83. :

84. :

85. :

86. :

87. : --> Proverbs--> Ecclesiastes--> Song of Solomon-->

    Isaiah

88. God told Isaiah to tell Ahaz, the King of Judah, not to be concerned about Rezin (the king of Syria) or Pekah (the king of Israel). But according to 2 Chr.28:5-6 "God delivered him [Ahaz] into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter." 7:3-7
89. The King James Version mistranslates the Hebrew word "almah", which means "young woman" as "virgin". (The Hebrew word, "bethulah", means "virgin".) In addition, the young woman referred to in this verse was living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. 7:14
90. These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20
91. Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. 13:21-22
92. This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1
93. The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5
94. "The land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt." Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt. 19:17
95. This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18
96. These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21
97. These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists. 19:23-24
98. "They have ... changed the ordinance. There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone."
    Is this a prophecy about prohibition in the United States? 24:5-11
99. "The priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink." You can't even trust a drunken prophet anymore. 28:7
100. Misquoted in Rom.9:33. 28:16
101. "The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold." Well, this is one prophecy that will never come true. Since the moon has no light of its own, but only reflects that of the sun, it could never shine like the sun. And the sun will not, at least not while there are humans to see it, shine 7 times as bright as it does now. 30:26
102. "The host of heaven shall be dissolved ... and ... shall fall down."
     The stars will dissolve and fall from the sky. 34:4
103. "The cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it."
     Edom will become a birdwatcher's paradise. 34:11
104. "Henceforth there shall no more come into thee [Jerusalem] the uncircumcised and the unclean." But many uncircumcised people have visited and occupied Jerusalem after this prophecy was made. 52:1
105. Nations that do not serve Israel will perish. 60:12
106. "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me."
     These words were spoken by Isaiah and referred to Isaiah. They were not a prophecy about a future prophet, as Jesus claimed in Luke 4:16-19, where he supposedly read these verses in the synagogue while applying them to himself. 61:1-2
107. :

108. :

109. :

110. : -->

     Jeremiah

111. Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened. 3:17
112. Apparently, prophets that preach good news and tidings anger God. So he will kill them. 5:12-13
113. "The prophets prophesy falsely." 5:31
114. God will make Jerusalem "a den of dragons." 9:11
115. Judah will become a desolate den of dragons. 10:22
116. "The prophets prophesy lies" in God's name. 14:14
117. God will destroy by famine and sword those who are misled by the prophets, as well as the prophets themselves. 14:15-16
118. Matthew (1:12) lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus -- which, according to this prophecy, disqualifies Jesus as the Messiah. 22:28-30
119. God finds some wicked prophets and priests. Like Jeremiah, maybe? 23:11
120. God says he is going to punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for what they have done to his people -- even though God Himself is the one who made the Babylonians attack and enslave Judah! As part of the punishment God will take the land of the Babylonians and "make it perpetual desolations." A false prophecy, since present-day Iraq is quite occupied.25:12
121. God kills Hananiah for prophesying falsely. 28:16-17
122. God will kill those who refuse listen to his prophets. 29:19
123. Matthew (2:17-18) quotes this verse, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre. 31:15
124. Misquoted in Heb.8:9. 31:32
125. "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 33:17
126. God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kg.25:7 and Jer.52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land. 34:2, 5
127. The beginning of the end for Zedekiah. Despite God's earlier assurances (34:5) that he would die peacefully at home, here Zedekiah watches as his children are killed and then has his eyes put out and he is shackled and taken to Babylon.  39:6-7
128. All those who move to Egypt will die by the sword, famine, or pestilence. None "shall escape from the evil" that comes directly from God. But many, including Jews, have moved to Egypt and most seem to have escaped from God's promised evil. 42:15-18, 22
129. Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by dragons. But people still live there and dragons have never been seen. 49:33
130. God prophesies that Babylon will never again be inhabited. But it has been inhabited constantly since the prophecy was supposedly made, and is inhabited still today. 50:39
131. God says that Babylon will be desolate and uninhabited forever. He says that only dragons will live there. But Babylon has been dragon-free and continuously inhabited since then. 51:26, 29, 37, 43, 62, 64
132. God promised Zedekiah (Jer.34:5) that he would die peacefully and be buried with his fathers. But here we see that he died a miserable death in foreign land. 52:10-11

     Lamentations

133. The "prophets also find no vision from the LORD." 2:9
134. "Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee." 2:14

     Ezekiel

135. God deceives some of his prophets and then kills them for believing his lies. 14:9
136. Ezekiel Prophesies (in the 6th century BCE) that Ammonites will not be remembered any more. They continued to exist until the 2nd century CE. (And they are still remembered in the Bible.) 21:28-32
137. Ezekiel prophesies that Tyrus will be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar and will never be built again. But it wasn't destroyed, as evidenced by the visits to Tyre by Jesus and Paul (Mt.15:21, Mk.7:24, 31, Acts 21:3).  26:14,21, 27:36, 28:19
138. Ezekiel prophesies that Israel will reside in their homeland safely and securely, never again to fight neighboring nations. 28:24-26
139. Ezekiel makes another false prophecy: that Egypt would be uninhabited by humans or animals for forty years after being destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar. But there was never a time when Egypt was uninhabited. Humans and animals have lived there continuously since Ezekiel's prophecy. 29:10-13
140. "The day ... of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen." God plans to wipe out the heathen. When? Soon. Really soon. 30:3
141. The rivers of Egypt (identified as the Nile in NIV, NASB, and RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 30:12
142. Ezekiel prophesies God will protect the Israelites from "the heathen". "And they shall be safe in their land." But the Israelites have never lived peacefully with their neighbors, and they've never been safe from attack. 34:28-29 36:15-->
143. After several chapters of mind-numbing measurements and instructions for building this temple, God tells Ezekiel to make it known so the Israelites and build this fabulous structure. It was never built. 40:5, 43:11-->

     Daniel

144. To many endtimers, these verses describe the coming Antichrist. However, it is more likely that they describe a tyrant king of Syria, Antiochus IV. He reigned around 170 BCE and persecuted the Jews, sparking the Maccabean revolt. This information gives even more credence to the train of thought that has Daniel's writer living in the second century BCE, than in the sixth. Which wouldn't make these verses prophecy; they would be contemporary history. 8:23-25, 11:21-45 -->
145. The apocalyptic visions Daniel has seen are to be sealed up, to be opened after "many days." Many days have passed since this book was written, with nothing like what's described here going on. Also, it is interesting to note that the visions described in Revelation 22:10 are not to be sealed, since the time is supposedly near. But even that book was written nearly 2,000 years ago. So much for "near." 8:26-->
146. "I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." (If Daniel couldn't understand his visions, then how could anyone else?) This is the one true prophecy in the book of Daniel: "none understood it." 8:27

     Hosea

147. "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight." This may be the verse referred to in Luke 18:31-33 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. However, Hosea 6:2 refers to the people living at the time (hence "us&quot who were to be torn up by God and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the the death and resurrection of Jesus. 6:2
148. The prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad."  9:7
149. "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."
     Matthew (2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus' family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse ("Out of Egypt I have called my son&quot. 11:1

     Joel

150. "The day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand." 1:15, 2:1, 3:14

     Amos

151. Amos tells Amaziah that his wife will become a whore, his children will be killed, and he'll die in a pagan country. There is no evidence in the Bible (or anywhere else) that any of these things occurred. 7:17
152. God tells Amos that the end has come for the people of Israel. He won't wait any longer to kill them all. 8:2
153. "They shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them." Despite this promise, the Jews have been continually uprooted and their lives disrupted. Even today, their land ownership falls into question. 9:15

     Obadiah

154. "For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen." If so, then it must have come and past, unnoticed, long before the birth of Christ. 15

     Jonah

155. Jonah prophesies that in forty days Nineveh shall be overthrown. But it didn't happen because God repented (Jonah 3:10).3:4

     Micah

156. Watch out for lying prophets that bite (with their teeth). 3:5
157. "The prophets thereof divine for money." Some things never change. 3:11
158. "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
     The gospel of Matthew (2:5-6) claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.
     1. "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4).
     2. The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from verse 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.

     It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.5:2 Nahum--> Habakkuk-->

We all know that the wager is fallicious as an argument and is used as psychological terror trick to bulldoze dogma through brute force. The thing is, it is usually used in a hit and run context, wheras they'll throw in the single line it takes and then you've only got a couple of seconds to retort, and managing to cram an effective rebuttal into those couple of seconds is a difficult task, especially if they are philosophically ignorant.

So here I present some ideas for snappy replies.
Admittedly, I have only used them in imaginary scenario's where the fundy conveniently sends me the phrase I need to execute the rebuttal and they are suitably stupified after my 'perfect' reply, but hey, you've got to think up these things somewhere!

I think that the best way to intuitively grasp how terrible the wager is is to have someone use it on you, so when someone wagers you, a good way to show them just how bad their argument would be to present an equally bad one back at them. For example:

I have done alot of thinking, and I know that many Theists make the following point about Atheism:

"What's the point in living on this Earth for the blink of an eye known as human life? All people die someday, and it's as if their lives become meaningless after death. Ofcourse, people can make themselves a personal purpose in life, but does it even matter, when ultimately they are forgotten and their lives become meaningless?

If Hitler is not punished and Mother Teresa is not rewarded, then why should anyone have morals and try to live 'good lives', when ultimately it becomes completely meaningless? There has to be an ultimate purpose to life. If not, then there is no reason for us to exist."

For all the hype and argument there has been on this forum you would think that we could reach some compromise or at least logical evidence for one side or the other based on common premises as to weather or not god CAN exist! with the goal of answering this all important question in mind I would like to take a census of weather or not the majority believes in the following:

1.the big bang

2.the evolutionary theory

3.logical proccess

Don't get me wrong i believe these should go without saying but never the less i won't proceed until these questions are answered by at least rook and sapient so without further ado start answering!

I'm not touting the source, just think it's interesting reading:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18899688/