I'm sure you're all familiar with this theist argument:

"But we NEED absolute morals! Otherwise, morals would be relative, and people would just make up their own morals! The world would descend into chaos! Moreover, we NEED an absolute moral law giver, and that is the God of the Bible."

I have heard VERY intelligent people make this argument. The valedectictorian of my college class, who was my roommate for a time, formulated this argument to me, and he's one of the smartest people I've ever known personally.

Unfortunately, I do not think that A) this argument is logically valid & B) that the premises behind this argument follow to the conclusion that is made.

A certain "movement" has come to my attention lately. The movement is apparently inspired by such thinkers as Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. I have not had the chance to approach Richard Dawkins' books yet, but I am halfway through "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. Harris is using a rational, pointed argument to point out the dangers of religion and to call humanity to a new vision of rational secular ethics. I completely disagree with his overall view and hope to post a response eventually to his argument. However, I believe that he is a rationalist and is approaching the topic with an honest point of view. Harris is calling us (specifically the country in "Letter to a Christian Nation" - which I have not read yet) to use our minds and reasoning to deduce truth and morality.

Hey all.

I'm new here and I thought it would be worthwhile introducing myself.

I'm 26 year old Christian from Australia. I've been studying matters of faith since I was about 10 years old and have been actively searching out answers ever since. Particular interest is in the age-old creation vs evolution debate (incidently, I don't really have a side - to me it doesn't really matter how it all came about). In discussion of faith issues, I've usually been able to gain the respect of both atheists and Christians as being fairly balanced and unbiased. I hope this is true here too. I look forward to discussing things with you guys as well.

why we should not believe in God!

Simply said. . .there is no proof. . .

at least no indisputable proof or evidence that a God exist. ..

I want to ask any christian or anyone of any religion to prove to me that their God exist without using their words, or stories of someone elses past expeirence, or even their own personal expeirnce that lead them to belive that God or Some Holy Divine being was talkin to them, or appearing to them.

As you or some one you know is the only one who has had this so called expeirence. . .maybe you might even have some witnesses to confirm your cliam, which probably are all God fearing people along side yourself who will follow in your footsteps, or support anyone else who claims they had an expeirence with God or some Divine Being.

A]re YOU God now? Locate me to my intelligent posting that has done nonething to post questions. Keep deleting my posts, and I will continute and poke and prod at all of you arguments. You think it angers me that I have wasted my time posting all that, to have it deleted? Fuck that! You provoke me only to go write a fucking book. So you mind as well reinstate my post, my topic as a worthy topic of discussion. Because, I know, I have started something, I can start anything. You all can start a wheel of Dharma which starts which using your fucking heads. Let me use my mine, and just ask s

I'm a thinker. I come to this board to not try and convince anyone of anything. I come to this board to point out the fallacies of your thoughts and conviction over something that isn't really that completely revealing and fascinating. Before you continute reading anything I have to say, let it be known that I hold no belief in religious dogma yet I know a lot about religion. One other thing I know alot about it spirituality. And if any of you are reading these boards, and agreeing with what anyone has to say about anything, then please entertain the idea that spirituality is very very very seperate from religion.

Life requires an all-powerful being, God, to even exist. Life is too complex to simply be something that fell into place. The replication of DNA to formation and cooperation of cells. The very beginning of matter requires God.

Daniel 9 states that 70 weeks are determined for Israel. 70 weeks is 490 days, 1 year 4 months 5 days. This scripture describes the destruction of Jerusalem, as well as other things. As of Daniels time, Jerusalem was not destroyed in 490 days, so 70 weeks is not really 70 weeks. The Bible states that by two or three witnesses God's Word shall be established. So with that, on the 70th week, the he whos people previously destroyed Jerusalem will confirm the covenant for "1 week" then in the midst of the week stop it. This is called the abomination of desolation. The we travel to the next witness which is Jesus in Matthew 24. He had just finished up telling his disciples that the temple will be destroyed, but then he says when you see the abomination desolation, SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL, STAND UP IN THE HOLY PLACE, then all in Judea(which is modern day West Bank) must flee, because then shall be great tribulation. Now if the temple is destroyed how can the AoD stand up in the Holy Place? that will we get to later.

I was listening to another of Dan Barker's debates, and he discussed the idea of divine justice. I'd like to expound.

Is it EVER just to condemn someone to "hell" or even human prison for an eternity?

I would argue that it is NOT just to condemn someone for eternity, and I will use Hitler as an example, since he is considered the most evil person ever to exist.

1. REHABILITATION AND FAIR JUSTICE. The human justice system relies on rehabilitation. Granted there are some crimes for which we condemn people to death, but I would argue that only the most extreme cases, ie mass murderers like Saddam Hussein deserve such a fate. If God has the ultimate means by which to rehabilitate someone, his goal should be the same. I would contend that even though Hitler orchestrated the deaths of millions of people, and we sentenced him to 100 years in prison for each of the 6 million people that he killed, that would still be 600 million years. That is NOT eternity. And I am inclined to believe that after 600 million years, EVEN Hitler would be rehabilitated and will have served his time. Snuffing out his soul altogether or giving him "eternal" punishment is unjust, yes, even for Hitler. If he can be rehabilitated, there is no reason to banish him for eternity.

What do Christians think will happen to the UNIVERSE after the Rapture?

1. Will the Universe cease to exist? Will the good people go to heaven, the bad to hell, and then God will erase the existence of the physical universe?

2. Carl Sagan, based on what I've read, is very confident that intelligent life exists somewhere else in the universe. What happens to THOSE intelligent beings? Do they die with the end of the universe? And while the good people are in heaven, what do they do considering that other intelligent beings STILL exist in other parts of the existent physical universe? Seems like a big head scratcher to me.