Take care ex-min. My only advice is to fight each battle when it happens and when you have all the information, not to preempt worse case scenarios. But that's easy to say and this sort of thing would worry anyone. 

Keep us posted on how you go and keep hoping for the best. You're a good person and I'm sure other folks will agree when I say we look forward to spending plenty more time with you on the forum. 

Lean on your friends and family, mate. All the best for the next 48 hours. 

Is there any chance they can prescribe you some pain-killers?

It's times like this that people would give in to the placebo of religion.  Almost like a mantra you can fall back on the old "delusion of grandeur" that is promise of immortality.  You need to do what's best for you, we're all programmed to survive.  There is no right or wrong answer, only ways to avoid pain.  

The end result is still the same, but you can at least be true to yourself.  You've made it through this once, you will make it through again.  Hang in there.

 Hang in there ex-minister. I've always enjoyed your posts and our discussions. Although we have never met face to face, I feel like I know you. 

I wish you the best of luck and hope the pain will recede. Keep us posted man.

  Sorry that you're in so much pain ex-minister.  Just having migraine headaches used to suck the will right out of me and headaches would probably be nothing to you.  I too have enjoyed your insights and I hope that your are given the necessary pain meds to let you get your life back ( and, speaking selfishly, so that you will continue to feel like contributing to this community, lol. )  Keep us informed and feel better, bro.

AE,

Thanks. My default mode is to awfulize. It was how I was brought up to think and religion compounded it with the black and white thinking of Christianity. "If you are not for me your against Me" "You either serve god or the devil" A lot of harm comes from this kind of thinking. I have bit my nose off to spite my face. You have given me a good reminder.

X

I got vicodin from my GP. I tried it a few times and all it did was give me a headache. Great, more fucking pain. I plan to ask the neurosergeon for something else tommorrow.

Ktulu,

It really has become important to be true to who I am. I have really come to enjoy life without a need for an imaginary overlord. It was hard to let go of that illusion. Perhaps as children we felt some safety with caring parents. We grew up and realized they were flawed and they would not always be there. So we settled for a fairy tale. The truth sets you free, not a fairy tale.

Harley,

I do look forward to your posts. I enjoyed our big alanon debate and how we discussed it as friends. The good thing about this pain is I can ride. It feels better than sitting in a car.

I plan to update sometime tomorrow with what the doctor says.

X,

It appears God has allowed this pain to come over you for an unknown reason. Perhaps because you're so wicked and stubborn. Perhaps you are a Christian that is carnal and God is punishing you.

The fact that you are a stupid fool and still use the Lord's name in vain even when in pain shows the depth of your public education.

Turn to the Biblical Jesus. The SDA Jesus is fake and E.G. White is in hell.

If you think you are experience pain now, just wait until the afterlife my friend.

You have been warned.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

While I believe in freedom of speech, to post shit like this on someone's page while they are experiencing an ordeal like this one crosses the fucking line. 

Granted, 99% of the time I can actually tolerate your horseshit because I find it amusing. But, you've finally pissed me off. 

I remember that post you put up where you said that you were dying. I must conclude that was another one of your fucking lies and now you put this bullshit up. 

If I was a moderator, I'd have you fucking banned. 

It's a good thing that we are not face to face at this moment. 

And before you state another one of your stupid fucking jokes about sportsters, I can tell you that I am welcome in every Outlaw and Iron Horsemen clubhouse in this city.  I am no fucking fake pretend wannabe biker. I'm the real deal. 

Now take your theists crap and jam it up your ass where it belongs. 

I've heard that some people's brain chemistry doesn't get along with codeine based drugs. Hope you find something better.

Save your jokes for other threads.

 By the way, to the moderators on here. I am sorry if I was inappropriate in my above rant at Jean. I wasn't attempting to convey a threat or anything of the sort. 

I had a bad day today and seeing Jean's post to ex-minister with the current pain and suffering that he is going through just really pissed me off and hit me the wrong way. 

If I stepped out of line to anyone that read that, I apologize. 

HOWEVER, that apology is to the board and that's it. 

To JEAN. I meant every word I said. Take your nonsense and shove it. 

I have nothing else to say to theistards that make light of people's plights of pain. 

Hey,

I have been saying these things all along, and then finally when something practical happens and steps out of theory and I contonue applying the consistency of the truth you are in shock?

The little tantrum that you just had is a manifestation of your colors and why you are an agnostic. This whole thing to you is just a jerk of an emotion.

Well thank you for finally demonstrating the reality what I have been saying about you and other agnostics pretending to be atheists as well.

If X Minister dies or is in pain or whatever it is because of the sovereignty of God. X is being stupid by still rebeling strongly/hardcore even to the end.

As far as me being banned and you being for freedome of speech, this sounds like double talk my friend. When you have a tantrum your agnosticism becomes even more consistent.

X is drinking those little drinks with the umbrellas in them on the beach of a carribean island right now compared what you and him will be going through when you are tortured and tormented in hell.

Regarding me being in front of you? The truth has caused a threat? How convenient. Though I would not worry if a person who drives a scooter was in front of me. Perhaps I would add flowers to the basket hanging on the handle bars.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Hey Ex-MIn.  I don't know much about NHL but I'm no stranger to pain or drugs.  I also have an illness that will eventually do me in unless something else gets me first.

I know the pain you speak of as I also have degenerative disc disease, which is basically just chronic recurrence of a bulging disc. And the resulting sciatica is terrible as you know. I won't babble on about it because most intense sufferings can only be embraced by someone who has experienced your particular sort, but i will say mine has gotten so bad I've had to drag myself to the bathroom on the floor only to get there and be so clenched up I couldn't even piss once i made it up to the toilet.

They've tried every kind of piil on me to no avail.  But I did find that even partial relief is something to be greatly appreciated.

The only thing that ever gave me any relief, even after all the scripts failed was a combo of a very hot bath, ibuprofen just to help with inflammation, extremely heavy amounts of Absolute vodka w juice, all topped off with the cure-all high grade marijuana.  Oh sweet relief.

If that doesn't do it for you, I hope you find relief and better news.

Oh and Jean,  I could devise such extravagant methods of mental and physical abuse for you, but I'm just gonna say that I think you are a bad person.

Two Finger Tony,

So by being consistent and applying the theretical to the practical I'm a badl person? lol.

I am telling the truth in your pathetic lie of agnosticism.

You are an evil person and on your way to hell my friend and the green bud won't relieve your pain there.

Typically when an agnostic who lies and says he is an atheist says the Chrisitan is a bad person, this usually means you're doing something right.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

And as a thoughtful former christian, I say this:

“But whoever...beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?"

-Jesus (1 John 3:17)

Hey,

X is not my brother since he is a pagan on his way to hell. Did you really just take that text out of context? that was easy also.

God hated Esau remember (ROmans 9:13).

Now if X was at my door in need of course I would help him and minister to him as a human being. But as least I would have the balls to tell him the truth.

You people lie to yourselves and to everybody else to sear your filthy conscience of your bile and evil.

Regarding X and Tony, may God have mercy on your soul you stubborn self-righteous fools.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

but we do. And most importantly, he does, too. 

  But actually Jean's sociopathic rants serve a very useful purpose for the cause of atheism. 

His insane ramblings are the perfect recruitment tool for future atheists to see just how perverted a Christ-infected mind actually is.  He is actually just pulling back the curtain to reveal a steaming pile of shit that constitutes his belief system.

Showing visitors here the inner workings of a demented Calvinist such as Jean serves the same purpose as showing a panel of jurors at a murder trial the disgusting crime scene photos of a mutilated victim.  It only strengthens the case against Christians who think like him and shows him in such un-filtered detail that it removes all doubt as to the utter lack of value of their perverted "values".

 Damn ex that sucks. I have a cousin who has fought NHL, I have seen enough of it to know that I have no clue what it is like to experience that kind of pain. Keep us posted, I hope it works out for the best. Try not to stress about what you can't change and enjoy as much of life as you can.

Post all of the bullshit that you wish, you fucking moron. But, direct your comments away from me and I'll do the same by ignoring you.  Jam your epistemology up your ass where it belongs. 

Disrespect intended and ad hominems deliberate. Fuck off. 

LOL.

When the wackos tell me I am going to hell, I wear it as a badge of honor and it tells me I am on the right track. I don't prefer their company so a different living arrangement is just fine with me.

A Calvinist preaching just doesn't make sense. Doesn't matter what I do because it is all predestined.  

When E.G. White was 9 years old an angry schoolmate throw a stone and hit her in the nose causing brain damage. Apparently a similar thing happened to our dear friend, Jean.

I learned that prayer seldom accomplishes what we decide we want when I failed to raise my pet parrot from the dead.  It remained a very much ex-parrot.

I also learned that Billy Joel is very much right when Mom passed away 11 years ago at the entirely too young age of 58.  If there was ever a woman straight out of Proverbs 31, that would be Mom.  Not that I'd suggest running out quickly and committing a few sins to remove the "Only the good die young" prospects (since suggesting someone sin is ... a sin ... and you don't seem like some big evil meanie sinner anyway), but you might want to take stock of your life and decide whether or not Billy Joel's words apply to you.  Act accordingly.

I will say this -- there is never a bad time to take stock of your life.  If you (or anyone else) die tomorrow, can you say that you've left this a better rock to live on than it was when you got here?  Have you at least tried?  Have you made a positive improvement in the lives of the people around you?  Will people say nice things about you when you're gone, and not just because they are being polite?  If so, you've done all you can.

If I get the timeline correct, today you're off to see some other doctor.  I wish you and your family all the best.

When the wackos tell me I'm going to hell, I tell them that Jews don't believe in Hell, and besides, they are polytheists and polytheism is against the Ten Commandments.

You should become Jewish just so you can use that line on them.

But doesn't the Jewish religion derive it's teachings from the Torah ? Which would be where the Ten Commandments are contained ? 

I know very little about Judaism, other than the fact that jesus was not recognized as the messiah and a few other minor things. 

The neighborhood that I grew up in, (North New Jersey) was comprised of Irish, Italians and Jews.  But other than the fact that everyone celebrated their Sabbath on a different day, I know very little about them. 

I am an Italian-Irish mix, so I got Catholicism crammed down my throat from both sides. 

I saw the neurosurgeon (NS) yesterday. He had the CT radiologist report, which I got a copy of. While in the office I read over it multiple times. I have 3 masses, but fortunately I am "unremarkable" in a number of significant places. The pancreas is one. My Dad died with that. I never knew I would love to be referred to as unremarkable.

The NS said he needed to talk to my oncologist, but was suggesting that they could do a needle biopsy on one of the other two locations (little doubt they are NHL) instead of on my spine at L4/L5. I was skeptical and asked how would you know the 3 are the same thing and in particular the one at my spine?

The NS said he was going to try and avoid surgery to get the tissue sample because I would need all the strength I have for chemo.

He told me to stop taking ibuprofen. He said it was probably eating a hole in my stomach anyway, but I had to be off it for at least 5 days before a biopsy could be performed. So he has put me on Voltaren (Dicolofenac). And I told him about how Vicoden just gave me a headache and he gave me Percocet instead.

Later in the day after talking to my oncologist he called me. I will be going in for surgery as soon as possible after the ibuprofen is out of my system. They have to get a tissue sample from the spine since that is the most worrisome part. He told me he will also shave down the disc bulge to give me pain relief. That sounded like words from an imaginary place in the sky

Other good news he said I can go back to PT. Last night was another bad night of pain. Scale of 1-10, I would put it at an 8 or 9. Lots of "jesus christ", "god damn" "holy shit" "what's the fucking point"s going on.
I don't do drugs well. Wine yes. In spite of taking two Percocet's last night it had no obvious effect. Does it not work out of the gate? Does it need to build up in my system? Anybody know?

Thanks to those who wish me well.

Holy Shit, Tony. That is simply awful. 

I amuse myself  at times by saying "Bad Design", "Bad Design". I have said it in front of some people and get a "hell, yeah" or a stunned look. One woman at work said "hell, yeah". She also had a sciatica problem and she said it simply was the worst she had felt in her life, like being seared with a hot iron. She said childbirth was easier. Surgery took care of it for her.

My pain is worse when I don't move. Sounds like yours is intensified by moving. 

Maybe I should just give up the percocet for large doses of wine. I was doing that with the ibuprophen. 

The best pain killer I ever had was after my emergency appendectomy. That put me on a liquid Dilauid where I could push a button as needed. I didn't need too much, but boy that smoothed me out. I asked the NS for it, but he said he doesn't know anyone who found it helpful orally. He was on it himself after a surgery and found it entirely useless.

At least the last go round, the pain of NHL was minor. The chemo was devastating. It fucked me up royal, but it got the NHL under control. Once you have NHL you never truly get rid of it. It pops up and a lot of times as in my case for the past decade my body managed it. I had a lump under my jaw line for a bit over a year. My oncologist and I talked about it back in Feb. Now it is gone. Some times the battles in my body are won by the good guys. I don't know how AE would put it but that is the best I can do.  

We assume now it has found its way to my spine. I might be lucky that I have this sciatica from a bulging disc. We had stop doing CT scan because it ironically can cause cancer. This pain got me to the GP who got me to do the MRI and then it was found by a radiologist. So it could be catching it early. However, my oncologist said it is in a very unusual spot and might be a higher grade of follicular lymphoma. He thinks large cell. He is a brilliant guy and I have a lot of confidence in him. He gave me a full decade of life and I am grateful for that. Maybe he can give me a few more. 

Friends and family are a comfort to me.

 Keep up the good fight and keep us posted ex-minister. 

I really don't know a whole lot about pain medication building up in your system before it becomes useful or not. 

The pain pills they gave me for my motorcycle injury last year worked pretty well ( but I had generous helpings of booze to help me along with that).   

I do know that certain medications do take time before the effects can be felt, but am not sure which ones. 

Hey Furry. I have missed your presence around here.

Well, I am 57 now so we will have to see how good I am.

Part of me being a minister was trying to find the truth, trying to sort life out. Problem was it masked who I was. I couldn't bear the mask and ultimately left, spent years dealing with the guilt and through therapy and Alanon (not AA) I was able to toss it aside and find out exactly who I was. I come to find I am a very decent, honest person. I am able to care more without a sky daddy to worry about or plead to. That just confused me and I had to pretend I was a good boy like all church goers. Now I do good if I want to and ==only== if I want to. I have friends and family who care about me and what happens to me. They are important to me. I am one of 7 billion people. I don't see any need to leave this rock a better place because I existed. That is fools gold and meaningless to me. 

Thank you for your well wishes.

Ex-

I was really busy with work, then turning 50, then getting into a major pity-fest, then starting a day job so I could stop chasing deals that were driving me insane.

I didn't realize you were just 57.  I read about the grand-kids thing and figured you had to be a lot more ancient.

Part of my "truth" was something I realized when I was still a Jesus Freak -- good people go to "Heaven" (whatever that means) and bad people don't (whatever that means).  When I stopped thinking my particular brand of Christianity had the monopoly on Heaven (I think I was in a charismatic congregation at the time), my relationship to G-d had a lot more to do with =my= relationship to G-d than making sure you accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.  That was about the same time I started studying other religions in earnest.  We all know how that worked out -- I ran off and became a Jew.

Why do you owe making the planet a better place?  Because the people who lived before you have cumulatively made it a better place.  You owe it to them to keep things moving in an ever-more positive direction.

Sorry for my late arrival to this thread.  I was alerted to Jean's horrid behavior in this thread and asked to make a judgement on his stay here.  I will take some of the comments as they come, in order...

You don't owe us an apology.  His free speech allowed him to show us that he lacks empathy, and yours allowed you to express your disdain for that.  We probably all feel the same way.  

Herein lies the divisive nature of your interpretation of the buybull.  The reality is that we are all brothers, we are all linked, that is how those who embrace science see it.  I care about all others on this planet, I will do good for anyone that deserves good irregardless of religious preference.  You don't deserve good, in fact you deserve disdain.  It is sad that you are my brother, you are a weak link in the chain.

Why are you still here?  You're a perfect example of the weak link, you are a cautionary tale of what religion offers.  You have been my bitch since the day you joined here.  You have done more to hurt your cause in your postings here than most of the atheists that post here.

 I was asked to ban Jean because of his actions here.  I also see that Harley said if he was a mod he'd ban Jean.  If Ex-Minister feels the same way, please let me know.  

Please keep in mind, that while Jean is a very hurtful and mean person, he is helping our cause more than most of us can.  I feel that enduring a little emotional pain is worth the benefit of others overcoming their religious beliefs.  If I didn't feel that way I wouldn't have endured so much emotional pain over the last 10 years to advance the cause.  

 Ex-Minister, so sorry to hear about your pain and your current state of health.  You have always been a great friend and a vital member of this community.  I want you to know how much you are appreciated here, thank you.  Please stay strong, I want you stick around.  

Furry,

I got busy early with having kids.

RE:Making the world a better place.  That strikes me today as grandiosity. When I was a minister I thought I was making the world a better place with Jesus at my side. Not only did I have to worry about you, but also your ETERNAL salvation. I was so wrong. To quote Jesus all I was doing was making you more a two-fold child of hell. 

Now being older and knowing how huge our universe is and how insignificant the earth is and in turn how insignificant I am I don't have that view of me as something of import or significance.

It takes our tiny solar system about 250 million years to go once around our galaxy. And what there are hundreds of billions of galaxies.

Its like looking at an ant hill and watching all the individual ants scurrying around and there is the this one ant out of hundreds who is making his world a better place. Brighten the corner where he is. LOL. Who knows if my impact is good today? There are religious people who say I am ruining the world and pissing off Jehovah.  So, the best I can do is be comfortable in my own skin and despite my physical pain I am exactly that. 

I live and let live. I certainly am doing my part now to support medical science. Giving money and some practice time for them.

In the grand scheme of things it matters little what I do, but that doesn't stop me from caring. I just have a better perspective. Trying to "save" others is a lost cause and the more important it is to me the worse it is for them.

Brian,

I see no reason to ban Jean and agree based on your reasons.

This comment has been moved here.

Yesterday was a very painful day and I ain't doing that great at the moment but I don't have my generally long patiences. 

Jean is an asshole. No news flash there.

I split this thread in hopes that y'all will take it outside with him. He has zero sympathy and he is a child that demands attention and knows how to get it. It is easy to get sucked him. I have made it my policy to not talk to him, but about him.

I know he represents a portion of theists, but being on here I see not all theist are like that.  You can be a decent theist and appeal to reason and show kindness. And it is those who make the best case for their viewpoint.

So, please continue to rip Jean a new one at this thread, which will give me some pleasure. But if any of it comes here I plan to just delete them. My blog, my rules.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/32418#comment-383143

 UPDATE

Did my pre-op with the neurosurgeon. They have looked at the area a lot closer. The bulging disc isn't a real problem. It might be ok to leave it just as it is. If he tried to do something with it, it could make it worse. They have decided that it is the tumor that is causing the pain. So on Monday July 9th I will be in surgery. He will cut me open and retrieve as much of the tumor he can. It is impossible to get it all. This he believes will alleviate a lot of my pain. Then the tumor will be taken to a pathologist who has been informed and will be available immediately after my surgery. There is a chance that I will have a good idea the next day generally what it is. It takes 48 hours to get a specific diagnosis. So sometime during that week the oncologist and NS will know and then let me know.

The NS told me I will not be able to drive for two weeks after the surgery. But he didn't say anything about riding and I wasn't asking

The guess is its NHL, large cell. Which means another round of chemo treatments for me. That really sucks.

Hope in the long run you get better Ex-min, I know must be pretty awful at the moment, but I am a believer in staying positive even in the worst of times, and there have been many worst of times in my life, yet it tended to pan out well. However with any type of cancer (if it is cancer) I know it's hard to predict the outcome, however unless the doctor says your fucked, I hope you don't give up this fight. Best of luck to you.

 Good luck on the surgery. 

There is a difference between riding and driving.  

Kinda like a doctor that told me I could have a "couple" of drinks the night before they did some dental surgery on me. 

Well, I did have a couple. A couple of six packs. 

I guess I am probably not the best person to ask for "healthy" living. 

Ex-Min, hope your surgery helps you out. Your posts are always appreciated. I know NHL can be very bad as in the case of Andy Whitfield.

Hopefully you get a whole lot better. Will be looking for your status afterwords.

Don't let Jean Jean get to you, he can't help it that he is evil incarnate as he has modeled himself on the imago dei, you know the blood thirsty god of murder and mayhem in the fantasy tales.

PJTS

Best of luck, take care of yourself, don't be afraid to ask for help.

And by "Help", I mean, don't be afraid to have me ride you around on your motorcycle.  Because I'd do that for you.  Especially if it's a really nice bike.  And you needed help.

I am starting to get my pain management down. Late last week my neurosurgeon changed up my meds. He gave me the parameters and I pick a pattern that is good. Also, I am doing what my physical therapist told me to do and he has let me borrow a TENS unit. My pain is reduced quite a bit and I am not dopey from the drugs. I save the stronger stuff for bedtime. I have to immediately start the regiment when I wake or there will be hell to pay for the whole day.

I felt good enough today to take a long ride on my Moto Guzzi motorcycle. It was quite pleasurable. I tend to think about the worse case scenario. I am sure it has a lot to do with my religious upbringing and my chaotic home life. But I think it can serve me well at times.  I started to say to myself, "oh I better turn around and go home. don't want to push myself too much. this heat is really bad. I don't want to get caught in a severe thunderstorm". Then I corrected myself "Hey, will this be the last time I get to ride? Enjoy it like it could be". That motivates me to go further. I found a road that I had never been on before and it was nice and curvy. And that is my favorite combo when I ride.

Well, I am in Bible country so I see many small churches with their marketing slogans posted. Here is one.

 "If you make the choice, God will make the change".

Then I happened upon this one

Fire and brimstone. Sell an imaginary need followed with an imaginary fix.

Well, I got home and called my mother She went all apocalypse on my ass. A few days before she was in sweltering heat due to this derecho storm. She had lost her power. After two days she took up an offer from a nearby friend who had power. I didn't realize she had been out of power and insisted she go. Anyway, on today's call she with her power back, she was telling me she knows these are the end days and as the bible says there will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth". She said she was certainly wailing in the heat and these triple digits are a sign that god's punishment is starting. I didn't bother to respond. I did think how tormenting fundie religion is. You are taught to look out a simple power outage as the apocalypse.

Prior to this lovely chat, we did talk about my upcoming surgery to get a tissue sample and hopefully give me pain relief without drugs. I know it is weighing on her mind and I am sure she doesn't want to see her only child die before she does. I think she is hoping that she will not have to go through that and if the apocalypse comes all the better. I really cannot argue with her. I can tell it pains her and I know she hopes that I turn back to Jesus.

But I was born an atheist, then got religion fever. Then decades later with bouts of recovery and remission I got better and am once again an atheist. I read in another thread, I think it was tonyjeffers or beyond, but harley confirmed, the last thing to go is praying. It really was the last vestige of my religion. I am glad they wrote that. I am not praying anymore. I don't feel no need to plead or beg. I am calm. Sorry, Harley, for alanon speak, but I feel serenity. I will turn over my body to the doctor and hope for the best. I enjoy life. I am not looking forward to dying, but I don't fear death. It will be just like it was before I was ever here. I am concerned about my wife and don't want her to go through this. My hopes are that the neurosurgeon will do his job and the oncologist will do his to the best of their ability and I will get to thank them for decades to come. If this sounds dark, it is not. I like to face life squarely and honestly. I don't need a fantasy to help me get through the night nor the torment that comes with such baggage.

I love the quiet moments when I am by myself. Riding my bike is one of those.  If there was a god I would expect I would hear then, but instead I find I just enjoy my own company and thoughts.

Thank Enki, I am an atheist.

Furry, you are good people. Thanks.

Here is a picture of what I rode today. It is Italian and they are my favorite bikes. This is a pic from a few years back when I rode to Alabama for the Barber Vintage Festival.

It would be awesome to do it again

  My late father would have really appreciated your Moto Guzzi because when it came to cars and motorcycles he was a complete nutter for European brands.  He rode BMW bikes for over 30 years and lost his life while cruising on a 2005 R1150RT.

Really sad to hear about this.

I have come to respect your intelligence and insight on the all the topics raised on this site.

Wish you as well as possible... hang in there.

Ex-minister, I'm sorry to hear about it too.  Hang in there buddy.  Have you heard of the Cancer Treatments Centers of America?

Is this why you left the ministry? When you realized that no loving god could let this happen and Jesus is pure myth?

Thanks. That means alot to me. I have learned so much from your posts and know I am only one of many who feel that way.

Thanks. I have heard of them but have never looked them up. Will do that. I can only read so much on the internet before I go bonkers. But as I can I have been reading up on NHL. There is much more now than we I first was treated 13 years ago.

No, I left the ministry prior to all this. Cognitive dissonance was the reason I left. I couldn't make myself believe. Only recently have I entertained the historicity of jesus. There certainly is so much more on the subject. Read a couple of bart ehrman books.

I know it is an important topic to you, but for me the core messages of the bible are key. The gospel-the good news. I believe if you strike there you are hitting at the heart of the believer more directly. I mean things such as these: How cruel this jehovah and jesus are. The punishment in the OT is certainly bad but how about Jesus, meek and mild, he will burn you for eternity because you happened to notice how sweet some woman's ass was and forgot to ask for His forgiveness. How crazy this god is that requires an innocent blood sacrifice for a minor infraction. And then that wasn't good enough. So He had to commit suicide to stop himself from being so angry at us.

But the bible and church history are rich in defects and I am glad to see them all addressed, including examining if jesus as portrayed ever existed.

It was the accumulation of many of those chinks that helped me find my way out. What the bible said and my reality just weren't matching up. Religion has a vast web that holds you there. I can't imagine a believer waking up one day and saying that is enough of that. It is a process. Mine was measured in decades.