No true Scotsman fallacy.

What you fail to realize is that many if not most of us were believers.

It is perfectly rational to disbelieve or dispute the existence of that which has not been proven to be true. Your particular god does not, and cannot, exist. He is logically incoherent and any religious statement regarding this being is factually meaningless. Could there be some god/gods or a supernatural realm of which we have no knowledge? Yes. Even so, if I said to you that pink unicorns exist, and you said that they don't, would it not be expected for me to prove my claim and thereby convince you that I am correct?

The burden of proof is on you. Deal with it.

  .... pull out the whips Kelly, I must I say, "I'm so Glad" being your slave. Oh "Witchy Women" the men will say of you angels.

Angels with whips ? Of course. Give it up men, you can't win, and all of religion by silly men is all the proof of who really rules. Everyone comes from the female womb.

GOD is a Her, not a He ....     

It is the women who have done the hardest work. Always pregnant ....  

I can't speak for others, but for me, at least, "there is no god" is shorthand for "there is no god as described by the religions I am familiar enough with to comment on." This includes the Jweish/Christian/Muslim deity. I can say this because there are pretty consistent definitions of the nature of this god, and they are self-contradictory and contradictory to reason. You can approach the issue from numerous angles, from the internal inconsistency of the various holy books to the problem of evil, and beyond. So, please read "your god doesn't exist" into it if you see me write that to you.

Those are two very different statements, which I suspect are equivalent in your mind. There is a world of difference between chance and the results of mindless physical processes. I don't think the universe is merely a product of chance, nor do I think a diety is required to bootstrap it to it's current form.

Ahh, the classic challenge. I spent the majority of my life attempting to do just that. You'll notice that I'm not posting on the theist side. If your god exists, he does a good job of hiding(why the hide and seek game anyway? According to your bible, he wasn't shy before). But, I'm not close minded. If he wants to come down for a one on one, like Paul, I'll be happy to listen, and if given independently verifiable proof(in case I might be hallucinating), I'll happily recant and dedicate every moment to him. Somehow, I suspect my offer falls on non-existent ears.

I almost missed this reply. 

 I was pointing out that the author had an agenda, and thus, his numbers are suspect, and some independent verification is required. If I were to point to a study like that from an avowedly atheist think tank, would you accept the numbers without careful scutiny? Should independent verification prove his point, then it will be time to address the issues raised.

It's no proof at all. For one, virtually every self proclaimed atheist I know is libertarian, including myself, although I am, admittedly, still a registered Republican.  But I'm one of those oddballs who think we can build effective governmental safety nets while still cutting down on the intrusive nature of the governement(that's another topic altogether). Most Democrats are Christians, so kindly address your concerns about racism to them.

I do remember. This particular discussion(and Stein's original post) were from the Jewish viewpoint of atheists. If you wanted a general discussion, there is a forum with plenty of people perfectly willing to debate any defense of Christianity you may wish to put up for scutiny.

I spent the majority of my adult life pouring myself into theological and biblical study. That I now see it as utterly fruitless doesn't mean that I never saw it with other eyes. And now, from the vantage point of having seen both, I'm quite comfortable in making that statement. Or am I not a true Scotsman now that I have rejected it?

Two problems: 1) I'm never said Greek mythology, I said Greek philosophy and CHRISTIAN mythology(to be fair, it is Jewish mythology, too); 2) this isn't a political issue, so kindly leave the liberal/conservative signs at home. If you are stuck in a gear of looking for your favorite political boogeymen in everything, you are likely to miss the actual point. 

 Do you define "closest friend" as "person under your authority who only has authority derived from her husband, and only extending over the rest of the family?" If I treated my wife with Puritan ideals, I'd be divorced, and rightly so.

It was Baptist self interest that led to it, as they had been persecuted by the Church of England, which they considered heretical and anti-Christian, in part due to the perception that it was drawing deeply from Catholicism(popery, in Roger Williams terms). Williams rejected a joining of state and church because they had just escaped from the Anglicans. He would have been extremely foolish to recreate the situation. 

I will admit it. In as much as they laid the foundation for their own dissolution, some of those Christians did indeed espouse some interesting and important ideas. 

The fracture of western Christianity brought on by the Reformation did help create the environment in which freethinking began to flourish, so we should at least give a nod to people like Locke and Williams for helping to lay the political foundations which nurtured deism and later outright atheism.

 Of course, whatever gains I might credit the original Baptists with, I will certainly not credit to their present day descendents. They have apparently forgotten their past, and wish to impose their beliefs upon the whole of society:

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=1134

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=847 

 One more point: the Protestant Revolution(the well from which the Baptists and Puritans you mentioned drew from) was an example of inter-Christian debate. It added nothing new to the body of philosophical questions aside from "I think God wants religion to be X." 

I asked how he defined it. The answer is that the highest stage he found evidence for was based on the application of universal ethical principles. There is no required religious component to this, so no reason why an atheist cannot achieve it. 

Furthermore, he found it only in a small portion of people. Given the ratio of atheists in the general population and the percentage of people he found to be at stage 6, the percentage of stage 6 atheists in the population should be somewhere around 2.5%. Unsurprising that such a theoretically tiny group wouldn't make a big impact on his studies.

I don't think that is how court cases work. It is the prosecution making a case against the defendent. In other words, they are trying to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense, on the other hand, do not attempt to prove a negative. Instead they attempt to poking holes in the prosecution's case to show that reasonable doubt exists, or create one if it does not in some situations.

Also, a court setting is not exactly the best for deciding if a god exists or not. The simple fact that this god could or would not appear for testimony (and no, religious texts would likely not count) makes it a probable judgement by default against.

One makes the judgement based on the evidence available. Currently there is no evidence of an afterlife of any of the varieties that have been posited through out human existence. Does this mean there is absolutely no afterlife? No, there very well could be an afterlife. However, since there is no evidence for it, no necessity for it and all proclamations in favor of its existence is riddled with logical fallacies, it becomes quite reasonable to accept that an afterlife does not exist and extremely unreasonable to claim one does.

One benefit could be to show that, unlike the many other theists who say they can give a coherent definition of their god, you are not blowing smoke up our collective asses. That you say that you can but quickly surmise that it would do no good makes it look as though you a) don't really have a definition, b) know that it would not hold up to examination and/ or c) are operating on presumptions about a group of people (in this case atheists).

Well, you are wrong. Given that atheists do not have a belief in a god(s) it would be rather difficult to have our hearts "set against" it. Are you a Christian? If so, is it because you have your heart set against Balder*? Do you see how silly that is?

Actually, there is a rational and logical basis for one to say "There is no god." First, there is the lack of evidence that one exists. Second, there is no need for one to exist. Third, thus far theists have either refrained from saying what this god is or have presented one that is logically improbable. All of these combined make it rather reasonable to accept that there is no god.

As it is, for one to say that there is no god does not in the least mean that one believes that there is nothing greater than them selves. This is nothing but a strawman argument so that you can successfully argue against. If you disagree with this assessment, then by all means, show me where an atheist has ever made such a claim (that they are the highest being in existence because there is no god) in such uncertain terms.

Further, no one has made the claim that life, the universe and everything is, since there is no god, a result of chance alone. Along with being another strawman, it is also a false dichotomy. By making the argument regarding chance you are inferring that there is either god or chance. But this is not an either/ or thing. There are other options. In general, atheists do say chance, or randomness, plays a role in the existence of the universe, but it does so along with other "players" (for lack of a better term). There is an order to the universe, but this does not give it purpose or direction. There is no end goal in mind for the universe and its existence does not require a god.

Conversely, why would the universe need a reason? If it did, what difference would that make to our lives (other than us simply being in it)? If it did, wouldn't it seem a little narrow minded and arrogant to think its purpose revolves around us or that our actions have any impact, good or bad, on it at all? Isn't it more than a little egotistical to think the existance of the universe, the whole vast expanse of it, from the stars to the microbe, has anything to do with or was made in some way for humanity?

This statement naturally does not apply to your god, right?

Sorry, that is incorrect. Atheism is neither a belief system nor a religion, it can only be a part of one. As for it being based on one's "deep desire" to disbelieve, would that apply to anyone who said something does not exist or just to atheists? If someone says "There is no Loch Ness monster" is it because there is no reason believe such a thing exists or just due to their "deep desire" to disbelieve? If all disbelief or lack of belief does not stem from a "deep desire" to not believe in all cases, then this is simply special pleading. 

And here is why all your previous claims fall down. Your belief that you know that your god exists lead you to make logical fallacies This is why you think atheism is an irrational rejection instead of a rational position. To you there is a god and its existence is pretty evident. In you mind the only way to not see it is to not want to see it. However, this belief makes you blind to the fact that you refrain from or cannot support your claims, despite castigating atheists for the same. Then again, maybe you do realize the pretense on your part and you are simply too intellectually dishonest to admit it, to yourself or anyone else. At any rate, your point of view is rife with special pleadings, false dichotomies, strawmen and other fallacies because you fail, refuse or cannot see it any other way. Given that this also indicates the notion that you could be wrong has never entered your thought process suggests a certain conceit on your part.

Further, your assertion that one "can't find Him unless you honestly seek Him as God" is nothing more than an admission that a belief in god, or yours at least, is based only an an a priori assumption. What your claim means is that one cannot find god unless they already, on some level, believe this god exists. This is like so many theists that claim that their religious texts only makes sense, as being true, if one reads it with the belief that the texts are true in mind. In other words, in order to believe it you have to believe it. This is a circular argument.

But don't worry, I doubt anyone will take your word for it. Although, give the amount of support, or lack thereof, you've given your assertions and allegations it seems as though that you would rather us just take your word for it. Does this signify intellectual high ground posturing? Looks that way.

*Everyone always talks about Odin and Thor, which is cool, but let's show Balder some love too.

Quantum Physics in no way proves the existence of a God, particularly a creator god in the type worshipped by the Judaic-Christian religions.

From the ground-breaking findings of the Copenhagen interpretation onwards, one of the powerful findings of Quantum Physics is the influence of the Observer, or individual, upon the reality he or she sees and experiences.

Rather than ENSLAVE the individual to a partiachial, dominating, judgmental god sitting in the clouds, some of the findings of Quantum Physics actually gives power BACK to the individual.

Even those Quantum Theorists who are investigating and accept the validity of so called 'supernatural' or 'unusual' skills and abilities (such as pre-cognition, remote viewing etc) such as Dean Radin and others, stop far short of declaring this branch of physics to prove the existence of a creator god. In fact, they all, universally declare the direct opposite.

Being connected by a Quantum Field of energy and being entangled with one another (as in Entanglement Theory) in no way pre-supposes the existence of a male creator god, nor does Quantum Theory 'need' or require one.

In my opinion, once the findings of Quantum Physics are more widely known and popularised, the existence of a sole creator god will be doubted even further as power shifts dramatically to the individual.

Also, I grow tired of some religionists automatically linking the scientific validity of certain 'mystic' or 'paranormal' abilties to a creator god. Throughout the ages such religions relentlessly pursued and murdered such mystics and initiates of independent Mystery Schools which were systematically trained in, and professed use of these abilities. Such a use of abilities is the very antithesis to the Judaic-Christian God who holds all the power and deems mankind imperfect and sinful.

Excellent replies, people.

And, hey, I believe Baldr's the coolest of them all!

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. To use your illustration: You say "pink unicorns do exist." That is a claim and you must prove it. I say, "pink unicorns do not exist." That is a claim and I must prove it.

If I were to say, "I don't know if pink unicorns exist or not. However, based upon the evidence I have, I do not believe they exist. They could exist. However, I have no reason to believe they do exist." This is entirely different. By saying this, I am not making a claim. I am not saying, "pink unicorns do not exist."

Currently, you are the one making a claim. Your claim is this:

Therefore, it is your job to sustain your claim. Prove it!

 Do you honestly and sincerely meant this? Would you really give your life to God if He reveals Himself to you in truth? 

True. In American courts, one is innocent until proven guilty. However, in English courts, one is guilty until proven innocent. 

My point exactly. To say, "There is no afterlife" is to make a claim that must be sustained which is what Kelly has done.

You cannot find anything unless you first believe it exists. You cannot cross the ocean and expect to find China unless you first believe that China exists.

Of course you can't find God unless you believe God exists. 

But that's not even the full extent of what I am saying. I am saying that you cannot find God unless you are willing to give your life to Him. 

To explain this briefly....

Imagine that you are a father who has a beautiful young daughter. Your daughter was kidnapped by her mother at birth and she has never met you.  Her mother has spoken poorly of you her entire life. Your daughter, now at the age of 18, thinks your horrible person and suspects that you might even be dead. She has looked for you and never found you. 

You want to reveal yourself to her. But you know that if you do, she will hurt you and further. Before you can reveal yourself, you must find a way to make amends. You must find a way to straighten out the situation. So, you send her messages through other people trying to tell her the truth. But she will not listen. She is stubborn and has given up. Until the daughter opens her heart to your love, you can never reveal yourself without entering immediately into a fight. You want to love her. But first, there needs to be reconciliation. 

The same is true of God. Before anyone can meet God, they must find reconciliation. 

Of course. I did not become an atheist because "all the cool kids were doing it." I will follow the evidence, which I believed I was doing the whole time I was Christian. If conclusive proof is presented for a supernatural reality, I would be forced to believe in it.

The problem is that that evidence has never shown up. I spent almost the whole of my adult life believing and praying to God. I was never witness to a miracle, that is, an undeniable supernatural occurance. Once I was able to look at the question objectively, the logical proofs for god also fell. So, I followed the (lack of) evidence, and I had to leave the comfortable belief system I had wrapped myself in.

Even my theistic friends who claim to have witnessed such miracles admit, when pushed, that they not conclusive. If I had held my own religion to the same standards of proof that I demanded from others, it would fall the same. As it did, when I realized for the first time that I had become intellectually dishonest in order to accept what I felt to be true.

Whoa! Really? Because I am pretty sure we have a strong historical counter argument to that: Columbus. He was sailing for India. He ran into the Americas. This is an important point. His belief, or lack thereof, had no bearing on the facts, when he hit a landmass he didn't expect. The same holds true for proof of your god. If the proof is there(real proof, that is; wishful thinking doesn't count), atheists would run right aground on it, whether we like it or not.

Your story with the daughter is nice, but has nothing to do with this situation. If your god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he knows exactly how to convert each and every one of us without anyone getting hurt, and posesses the means to do so. In your holy book, he was quite willing to make himself known to everyone. Or do you disbelieve all of the titanic miracles attested to in the bible?

As such, doesn't it bother you that he can't manage a measely burning column of flame, a giant hand writing in stone, or the like? With millions of souls on the line, he refuses to show himself. It makes no sense, if you are a theist. It makes complete sense if you are not.

I'll grant that Stein does seem to be "talking out his ass", but I'm left with a lingering question: Why do you care what a converted Jew, who's only formal training is in computer programming, thinks about atheism? This guy isn't a journalist, published writer or philosopher, or even a Rabbi with a congregation, so it seems rather irrational to lob so much anger at a guy that no one is really listening to. That's like me caring what an ex-cell phone salesman with no formal training in history, philosophy or theology, thinks about Christianity--there's just nothing of value there worth getting all worked up about.

With all the media hype surrounding the Neo-Atheist "movement" disappearing, and the publishing trend of atheist screeds cooling considerably, I can't help but feel that targeting Jacob Stein is an act of desperation on your part; with a decided increase in the public lack of interest in atheism, it seems like you're just blog trolling for anyone bad mouthing atheism, then trying to portray these folks as spokesmen for the entire religious community.

The Saint

Personally, I get a bit pissed when someone makes false claims about me. So, I bitch a little about it. This comment section, however, has gone far beyond Stein, and is now centered on various issues brought up by readers of the original post. If I were worried what Stein thought, I would be posting in his comment section. I considered my blog post to pretty much sum up my thoughts on the issue.

You do know what site you are posting to, right? This site is dedicated to attacking and debunking theistic claims. Are you surprised that people actually do it?

And, I don't know about you, but I do not pick my beliefs by media consensus. I could not care less if the media is talking about atheists or not. I do not use polls to determine truth.

FROM A COMMENT THAT WASN'T POSTED. We didn't approve one comment from "voice of reason" and also skipped this one...

I moderated one of your posts by removing it per our rules. Anonymous posters are not allowed to break board rules at all. If you want to break board rules (the deleted post broke board rules), then sign up for an account, and your account will have some fair oversight by our mods. Otherwise as an anonymous poster, board rules can't be violated... by not allowing your post to ever show, this is akin to a ban on that one post.

Likely you don't, because I just told you how I work yet the rest of your post (not gonna be posted) had nothing to do with it. With nuggets like "it is blindingly obvious that you are no different than the "radical" religionists who refuse to acknowledge valid arguments against their religion." I wouldn't call you blind, I would phrase it more like "you wuv your imaginary friend wery wery much."

You also mention that the person moderating your comments should email you, yet have never provided an email. I would've guessed you were Matt Slick, but you signed your last post "Bryan." How about being a man, and registering for an account so you can get a few licks in while you have the "my god is an awesome god" juices flowing?

UH OH!

As I completed posting this Kelly said "did you see that moron sent us an email to our rrs email?" So upon inspection I now have reviewed your whiny bitchy threatening email, and have looked up your email address to find that you have an account on our site already, an active account! Sock puppets are against board rules, and you've broken them. Further more most of your posts under "voice of reason" break board rules, the only reason the first few were posted is because Kelly said to put them through. In your email you infer we wont post your comments yet between two accounts you have about 40 posts, almost all have a flair of breaking board rules. But you are still here! Oh noes!

More stuff on goon of reason:

(from email) "Hah! Kelly's blog is mostly ad hominem and vitriol. There is no real argumentation, only emotional rhetoric spewed at targets she has chosen."

I have nothing against them as people and had no idea who they were up until I read their bigoted diatribes. I presented evidence and attacked, which I feel is warranted considering their blatant animosity towards us.

I refuse to believe that I must remember anything in regards to responding to these types of people. I make the arguments I want to make and refuse to conceal my emotions because some people take that as being irrational. Anger is a perfectly rational response to a perceived attack. Plus, I don't really care if people don't like it. If my valid arguments are discredited in their minds because of my anger, they need to do some research. (I will be posting a study later that demonstrates otherwise.)

No it's because they know they're not gonna pull the same shit on us that they pull everywhere else. But you keep telling yourself that, if it makes you feel better.

I didn't say that no supernatural entities can exist--I just said Yahweh doesn't. From a logical standpoint, there is not only no evidence, but the attributes given to this particular god are contradictory. Omnimax creator beings cannot exist. There are a thousand and one ways to demonstrate the conundrum it puts one in to contemplate this being and the mental gymnastics necessary to sustain such a belief. Your use of wishful thinking does not prove anything. Whether it's theodicy, creation, omnipotence vs.divine freedom, omniscience vs. free will, etc. Michael Martin uses the "Scriven Principle" in his book Atheism: A Philosophical Justification that he expounds upon and describes thusly as a justification for positive atheism:

A person is justified in believing that X does not exist if (1) all the available evidence used to support the view that X exists is shown to be inadequate; and (2) X is the sort of entity that, if X exists, then there is a presumption that there would be evidence adequate to support the view that X exists; and (3) this presumption has not been defeated although serious efforts have been made to do so; and (4) the area where evidence would appear, if there were any, has been comprehensively examined; and (5) there are no acceptable beneficial reasons to believe that X exists. (p 283)

You will probably take issue with (2), so I'll preemptively state that an omniscient, omnipotent being would not only know, but be able to provide evidence for anybody. The bible states that god desires all men to be saved and that he is evident to all. Christians continually resort to shifting the goalpost when they encounter this by attempting to prove a nebulous god and then claiming it was Yahweh. Another fallacy. Need I go on?

I've already spent too much time teaching you things that you should study on your own before you make shitty arguments. 

I don't. He makes claims about atheists in general, and I responded. And, in fact, I've long since moved past Stein's contribution to this fun.

The RRS is not dangerous. Freethought is dangerous. The RRS is another example of people fed up with irrationality parading as truth, and they like to point it out with venom and ridicule. Kelly can also decide who and what she comments on. It is not up to you and I. If you dislike that, relief is just one click away.

I frankly don't see many "published and accredited theologians"(accredited by whom and for what? Does god have an agency for managing that?) rushing forward to the debate. I personally haven't debated anyone trained in theology or biblical studies in a long time who didn't duck out of the debate with an appeal to the "mystery of god." I have no respect left for that cop out.

And yet you hang around. It's almost like you obsessively type arguments against people who don't matter. Wait, that's what you keep complaining that I am doing. Hmmmm.....

Really? So one could not have just started sailing and ended up somewhere--kind of like Africans and South America, the Vikings, etc.? You must know the end before you can begin? 

Well, then, I guess you guys can't use the argument that all these "former atheists" became christian all of a sudden against their own will. Sweet. I'll remember that one. 

Besides the fact that I just threw up a little in my mouth reading your revision of the prodigal son parable, how could a perfect god be hurt? Would that not reveal a failure on his part? If he knows and even PLANNED all of this, why would he be surprised or hurt by it? How can a measly little depraved, disgusting human being affect the emotions of this wondrous and awesome god? Just a tad too anthropomorphic, methinks.

I never said because our shit is too real, but yes you hit the nail on the head, they are more willing to debate those guys because they can pull the same shit they pull everywhere else, just like I said.  Dawkins, Dennett, and Shermer were all railroaded by a string of never ending lies from Dinesh D'Souza, each time they responded in their typical manner. 

Typical manner= be polite, try to look like the bigger person, act civil, prop up your position rather than shoot down his.

 On our show, we wouldn't even have time to state our positions, we'd be too busy countering every single lie Dinesh tells, as he tells it, something you didn't see, nor really had any chance of seeing in his other debates (because of the format he makes sure to get which allows him to spit his propaganda campaign almost unchallenged).  Sorry, the format on RRS does not allow for the theist to have their typical 5 minute unchallenged full of holes rant to go on, without a challenge, like EVERY other formal debate I have ever seen on the subject.  Kelly's written the most popular blogs of the year refuting Dinesh. They've been posted to his blog, sent to his email, and reposted in numerous places.  He's attacked Shermer, Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens... where is the response to her?

When Dawkins took the stage in the formal debate setting last year in Alabama against the Oxford theologian, he had his ass handed to him, not because he didn't make good points but because he didn't respond properly to many points.  As the Christian was on the stage trying to build a burden of proof for Dawkins, trying to make Dawkins prove God doesn't exist all night long, he changed the course of the "debate" and forced Dawkins into a situation he seemed to have no clue how to win.  Dawkins was civil and polite in the face of such absurdity, and did not properly counter the arguments from the theologian who pulled the exact same stops they pull everywhere.... they just don't get away with it on our show and on our site.  

But by all means, go ahead and call the best of the best up, tell them we'll host them on our show when we get the ability to record again.  See what they say.

 So yes, I'll repeat myself for the deluded among you, Mr Cliche here stating the reason why you don't see more apologists getting their asses handed to them by RRS is because they're too scared to participate on our show.  Need me to say it again?  Maybe scribble it on your face and have you stand in the mirror?  

I care what people say about atheists because I am one and if I run across something that deserves a response, I do it. Who cares who it is? Does a racist in a trailer park in Alabama not need some re-education despite his limited impact?

For somebody who doesn't care what Brian (and by extension, all of us, some of whom do have "formal" training, which is of no more value than independent study and research) thinks, you sure do spend an awful lot of time trying to prove us wrong. Why bother? 

"Atheist screeds cooling considerably"?  You really are deluded. Look up new releases and you'll find one from Hitchens, a compilation involving Richard Dawkins,  a new book by Susan Jacoby,  and lots of other relatively recent books by authors like Matthew Chapman, Robert Price, etc. I would tell you to do some research before you make easily repudiated claims, but that's just not your MO, is it?

Just FYI, I have a list of things that I would like to respond to but don't have the time for at least 100 links long. Most of these are from printed sources. Atheists are not going anywhere, so you might as well get used to it.

That may have been your point but you have either missed mine or ignored it completely. Also, although you insist that Kelly and others must support their claims (a point I agree with and think they have done so), you notably refrain or refuse to do so with yours.

Again, you miss or ignore my point. If one believes something exists, then they are likely to find evidence that it does regardless of whether it exists or not. This is not to say such evidence is sound evidence or even confirmation of what ones believes, but to the believer it is verification none the less. There is also likely to be a wealth of data that contradicts the belief, but that will all be ignored or rationalized away. In the end, when one starts out from the position of belief in something that is questionable, improbable and superfluous effects such as truth, facts and reality become, at best, secondary issues if they register in the equation at all.

Again, starting from this belief only allows you to acknowledge that which supports the belief and ignore that which does not. By beginning from a belief that god exists you have purged any and all thought to the possiblity that god does not exist. This is not how one searches for truth.

That's quite the silly hypothetical you present. If this were the situation, then going about it this way would likely only confirm her negative opinion of me, as well as adding a few more bad traits to my character in her mind, on top of being completely unconstructive. As with many arguments by analogy it is a shoddy argument as it is generally the only resort of those with a deficient understanding of the topic at hand. That is unless you actually believe your god to be an inept and craven little emo kid that can't effectively take matters into his own hands.

I thought you said it required belief first. Now there has to be reconciliation too? What is to be reconciled and by whom?

He is pretty cool. Then again so is Heimdall. There's something about a god standing on a mountaintop with a big horn that gives a lot of insight into that culture.

He posted again as voice of reason, getting angrier and more bitter now.  Go ahead Bryan, post under your account here. 

 For a person to even begin to sail, they first must believe there is something more out there. You are claiming to be an atheist. Used in this context, it would like the sailor saying, "I believe there is something out there on the other side of the ocean." The atheist would reply, "I don't believe it." Because of a lack of a belief, the atheist would never get on a vessel and cross the ocean.

 You cannot find God unless you believe some sort of a higher power (ie. God) exists, or at the very least you are open to the possibility. Otherwise, you won't get on the boat and go look.

I haven't heard that one before. But you are correct. If Christ is who He claimed to be, then He will not force anyone into Christianity. That's not His objective. 

And just for the record, just because I am a theist, doesn't mean we are all the same. Atheists are not all the same. I certainly don't see them all the same. I have encountered atheists of different levels of disbelief. Some boldly proclaim there is no God. Others say, "I just don't believe due to a lack of evidence." Not all atheists are the same and not all agree.

So please, don't say "you guys" as though I fit into the same category as all the others. Personally, I actually agree with some atheists on their assertions about religion. It is evil and far worse than atheism. People have done horrible things in the name of religion. Most religions are an effort of people trying to control other people. There is proof and evidence of this.

The problem comes, however, in the thought that all religions are the same and all are evil. Just because religious people on earth have contradicted themselves and done evil things--this is no proof that God doesn't exist. And this is not to say that there is a true God trying to speak.  

I have my religious scars being lied to the majority of my life. But then God showed Himself to me. 

No failure on His part. God is love. That is how He can be affected by measily little human beings. He loves them. He takes interest in everything about them. He searches the inner depths of every person's heart. He cries when we cry. He laughs when we laugh.

Formal debate is nothing but a contest which employs tactics and strategies, utilizes persuasion and appeals to emotion, in an effort to win. It is wholly useless as a a means to discover the truth of any proposition and not at all a format conducive to rational discourse. Debate often discourages rational discourse being as that rational discourse is often a poor strategy to employ if one hopes to win a debate. Those who always insist on formal debate are those who realize that their claims can not stand on their own weight in a rational discussion and that they need to utilize the tactics and strategies afforded by the formal debate format to hope to persuade others of their position.  

The sum total of the rest of your comment is not worth the time required to reply as it is simply making unsubstantiated claims as to the intelligence level of RRS members. You, of course, provide insight into your own intelligence level and lack of ability to hold a rational conversation through the attacking ad hom style of your posts. That's okay, though. We are more than used to hypocritical theists around here. It has come to be expected. 

First I'd just like to say that I don't care if a person is Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, or any other thing.

But I did notice a statements in your "rational response" that sounded somewhat familiar to me. It took me a minute but with the help of my young nieces and nephew I realized where I had heard it before.

In part one you typed;

Fields accuses us of being "intellectually inept," but with his clear lack of knowledge, one can only assume that he must be looking at his own internal mirror.

You often hear children use this argument in the familiar form, "I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.", or in the words of PeeWee Herman, "I know you are but what am I?".

You also typed; "coming from people who base their lives on compartmentalization and self-deception." while referring to religious believers, thats a little like the pot calling the kettle black when you follow it up with "It is up to you to present the evidence that proves the existence of your imaginary friend!". It sounds as though you are a little closed minded and self-deceiving also. If you are basing your lack of belief on science, the the appropriate scientific position would be to remain open minded and neutral until such a time that one position or the other is unequivically proven.

After all, prior to 1930 science had proven there were only 8 planets in this solar system, but then oops, there are nine. Then in 2006 there were only 8 again, or is it 9 still? Scientists just simple can't agree whether or not that nineth bidy is a planet or a dwarf planet, that doesn't even count the other 4 planet sized objects that they have found recently.

In 1403 according to science the Earth was flat, blood letting was the prefered treatment for most illness.

Oh, and once upon a time science proved that the African people were more closely related to the Gorilla than to the white man.

Since science is primarily based on assumption (theories) it is a very poor "theology" to base a belief system (or lack there of) on.

That being said, I am sure you have heard this before, but it is so true that it is worth repeating. To paraphrase the French mathematician Pascal: If I believe in a God is there is not one, What harm has been done? But, If I don't believe and there is one....

Dear Kelly,

I truly appreciate it that you are publicizing my blog. I hope that some people out there will take the time to read all of posts in their entirety and also check out the links on my blog to other websites.

I am sorry that you are not happy with my post. However, only the truth hurts. Let me guess. You are middle aged, lonely, unmarried and have a cat. You are depressed about your wasted life which you have spent pursuing rainbows. And now here I come, rubbing it in about how wrong you are. Instead of kicking yourself as you should you want to kick me. Am I right? It’s a shame.

     Once again Kelly, I applaud your blog articles.  I like your style and I revel in the comments it generates.  I also think that you and Brian are correct in the assertion that noted theists are unwilling to debate with you on your show due to fear; they fear that the lack of a familiar format will not allow them to curry the same sort of favor with an audience that is generally not of the same composition as those they are used to seeing.  Let's face it: unless atheists make a concerted effort to be a part of those audiences, you will not find a large majority of them in attendance because they have arrived there as an accident of circumstance or through random selection.  There just aren't that many of us concentrated in one place.  Theists would have to come to you, and that presents them with a problem since you most certainly would not allow them to dictate the terms of the debate. Funny, Daniel walks into the lion's den but no one wants to be in the presence of the Rational Responders; go figure.

   One fact that I think is always overlooked by theists is that atheists have already "been there, done that."  Few among us can claim that they were raised as rational atheists.  I was raised Jewish, and oddly enough, the Protestant Bible is one of the catalysts for my rejection of theism.  I sat down to read it one day and was amazed at how similar it was, in certain sections, to the Torah.  Yet these people did not like each other.  How could an all-encompassing, all-loving deity forsake one group over another, provide both with corroborating and contradictory accounts?  How could different versions not only come about, but when extrapolated to include the rest of the sects, how could they arise if there was only one true version?  Simple questions, yes, but I was only about 10 years old.  However, these are the questions that begat my disbelief; everything afterward was mere reinforcement and affirmation.

We have already heard the lies and distortions.  We have already given faith to the Great Unseen.  We have already determined that it was a waste of time because it is falsehood.  We decided to stop believing.  For those of you who will claim that you never believed, more power to you, but the majority of us have anger because we were lied to and manipulated into doing and believing things that are not necessarily true or for our own good. 

As a former Jew I must clarify that my own atheism was not that difficult to accept.  Judaism lends itself to atheism in many ways.  There is very little fear-mongering through Judaism.  There is no constant attention to the concept of sin, there is no fully established model of post-life punishment and only a vague notion of reward (there are minor sectarian differences).  Really, in the grand scheme of things, Jews have a hard time seeing the grand scheme, if there even is one.   

But the fact remains that we have experienced what religion has to offer and we have found it profoundly wanting, not to forget insulting and dehumanizing.  We are trying to share the truth about the delusion with others who have not yet been fortunate enough to see the truth for themselves (and with chilling exposes such as "The God Who Wasn't There" available as just one example, we have a lot of work to do).    We refuse to believe again, and for good reason (what is the recidivism rate for atheists, anyway?).   

So, fuck civility and staid debate formats and intellectually sterile environments.  I hope you continue to banter with the bubbleheads, harvesting as much invective and hostility as you can along the way, and make sure that it all gets posted (Brian, I would have allowed voice of reason's posts to be seen, even if only to illustrate the support for free speech as a corollary for free thought...any reasonable person would probably have seen through the false bravado that occurs via the old 'telephone tough guy' routine...maybe you should post it in another section of the site, or give it its own section and call it "Things That Bore Us&quot.  You guys are doing great and I hope you keep at it for a while.   Thanks. 

Bryan, Freewind, Voice of Reason:  You can continue your discussion here, if you choose to.

It's certainly good reason to leave faith, I think they should read it too.

That's why your next few sentences are an attempt at an insult right?

Guess all you want, your guesses make anyone who knows Kelly laugh at your poor ability to guess, leading one to question how closely you are to guessing the god hypothesis correctly.

She's 29, we recently got engaged (and don't have wedding plans as she is still married to the person she has been seperated from for about 2 years) and are the happiest we've ever been in our lives, and we live with our two best friends who have an in-law attachment on our house. Kelly is also adored by tons of fans, gets a ton of email in this vein, and has a seemingly never ending barrage of people around her that support her. Also she doesn't really like cats however the other 3 adults in the house do, and we have several. If it was up to her we wouldn't have any.

With that said... let's say Kelly is the person you described, because no doubt there are members of our community who are as you described. My question would be, WHAT THE FUCK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH HER ARGUMENTS?

She's not depressed about a life wasted, she doesn't feel her life is a waste at all. If there was depression among us in this house it would be the knowledge that we are related to dishonest ad hominem shitbags such as yourself through a process known as evolution in which we all share a common bond. We are embrassed, ashamed, and yes sometimes depressed to be related to people like you.

Actually to us, you confirm how right we are. Which is why we have no problem promoting your blog as she tears it to shreds.

The point of her blog is to kick theism in the ass, you just happen to be collateral damage. Don't think too much about it, you're simply in the way of forming a better future for humanity. As we form that better future you will not be the only one countered, refuted, and laughed at.

As you can see, no you are not right. I've now read two pieces by you and I must say you've done a great job of showing me how either dishonest or ignorant you are. You are the epitome of who this blog project seeks to metaphorically strangle, I'm so glad she picked you.

Jacob Stein, Care to argue anything or is all you have an ad hominem attack?

Thank you. 

Before reading your post on this I had already posted his comments in trollville and turned on anonymous commenting in that section so he can continue to break the rules... in the interest of freethought.   

No...what one would say is, "I wonder what's on the other side of the ocean." With no idea either way, it would be absurd to believe that something is there. It would also be absurd to believe that something is definitely not there. The proper analogy would be, "There's no evidence at the present time for the existence of anything else over there, but I am open to evidence." Then, it's up to somebody to prove it. 

I've been on the boat--the accomodations sucked and the company was miserable. I jumped ship after about four years of getting nowhere. 

That argument is used by Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, and Kirk "Crocoduck" Cameron. 

I never attempted to lump all believers or non-believers together. I recognize that there are differences. If I am addressing you, and use a nebulous term like "you people", I am likely referring to people like you. Not all believers generally. I wouldn't say, "You people are all suicide bombers," because that would be idiotic.

I also recognize that atheists come in many varieties and I am specific about  my own atheism and the parts that I feel can be logically defended.

I'm glad that you at least agree on that point.  

There is no proof that Santa Claus doesn't exist. Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The logical stance on such entitites is to suspend belief until proven otherwise. 

How does an omnipotent god "try" something. Isn't he kind of like Yoda: "There is no try. Only do." (paraphrasing from a rusty Star Wars memory)

This is preaching which cannot be substantiated in any way. God cries because of the plan that he designed and enacted? Puhleaze. If that were true, I would have no pity for the sick bastard. 

Show me where in the above I state that such a thing was your claim. Reading comprehension is a skill that requires practice. Just take your time and you'll get the hang of it.

Now, if formal debate is not a useful means for discovering truth, which you do not contest, then why should those interested in rational discourse involve themselves with formal debates?

I have seen several formal debates between people I would consider neither intelligent nor civilized. Do you have statistics to show that these are the usual participants in formal debate? You make such a claim only so that you can then claim the RRS is not intelligent or civilized because they won't enter formal debates. Can you see the problem we have here? I'll give you some time to figure it out.

This is completely inaccurate. Formal debate is not the preferred academic format for rational discussion of ideas. Where did you ever get such an idea? How many professional academics actually involve themselves in formal debates? The preferred academic format for rational discussion of ideas is publication and review.

As I stated previously, formal debate is a contest not a venue for rational discussion of ideas. Formal debate is unconcerned with the rational content of the ideas presented and only concerned with the ability to persuade people that one has presented their position in a more convincing manner than their opponent.

Yes, more of your intellect free ad hom style. Wonderful. You are a fine example of rational discourse.

No. Many of those people are still perfectly willing to put their positions into the public arena to be scrutinized by any who care to critique them by means such as publishing them or perhaps even, as in the case of the RRS, by posting them to blogs and forums. They simply will not grant others the ability to hide the flaws in their arguments behind time limits, emotional appeals, grandstanding, and debate tactics that add nothing to the process of rational discourse.

If they insist on formal debate as a substitue for rational discussion then, yes, there is most likely a flaw in their position. It is a tactic that has been used by many, such as Kent Hovind, because it allows a skilled tactician or strategist to win despite the rational and intellectual vacuity of their position.

Admission of what? I am none of those people, nor are any specific positions of their's any concern of mine. Whether or not their positions can stand on their own weight is a matter for them to address. I will address such matters for my own positions, thank you.

I am happy to hear that Kelly is doing better. However is there anyway to verify that? Name, address, phone number, photos, video clips, etc.?

Anyway, let me just say that I know how hard it can be to be an atheist. I know all about the addictions, the alcohol, the promiscuity, the crystal meth, the constant masturbation and porn. I know it's not easy to squeeze in a little time to think straight.

However, if anyone out there wants to read my blog, I look forward to their visit and to reading their comments.

God bless you!

Did your nieces and nephews follow the comment up with studies? Were they also using words like acerbic, unscrupulous, and diatribe? Did your nieces and nephews explain to Uncle Chuck that quote mining and comparing arguments to those of children is not a very good defense?

Here is what she said in full form, it doesn't look much like I'm rubber your glue to me, because it's actually followed up by an argument. For the record, "I'm rubber you're glue" is a good way to help kids deal with the bullies and mental harrasment many kids are subjected to in school, the exact sort of harrasment adults face from religion. How ironic.

Yeah, her arguments remind us all of middle school again don't they? Oh no wait, I was confusing your arguments with hers. Way to go Chuck, the dishonesty oozes out of you.

Agreed, and if you bothered to look around a little and decipher our positions before commenting you'd probably know by now that we are fully open to the possibility that there is a god. Go ahead and prove it. While we wait for proof, there is no good reason to believe in one.

No according to science it was spherical. Eratosthenes of Alexandria estimated the circumference of the Earth about 1200 years before your date, his margin of error was less than 1%. Unfortunatly due to religion, that information was suppressed. See the burning of the library of Alexandria. Many scientists knew the Earth was spherical but maintained silence due to the dark age period where if you spoke up about such information you could be killed.

Our buddy "voice of reason" should put that in his "in the interest of freethought pipe" and smoke it.

Theories aren't assumptions. Ask your nieces and nephews to help you out with this one, they will hopefully learn it in 9th grade biology like I did, if your religion hasn't completely fucked over their schooling by then.

It only bears repeating if your purpose is to expose yourself as a fucking idiot.

So you believe in Poseidon, Osiris, and Allah right? If not, you're a liar and a hypocrite, and a dumb one at that. Pascals wager is the easiest theistic argument to refute. You know muslims use it to convert people to Islam right?

A simple google search of this site pulls up over 400 results had you chose to research before making a fool of yourself.

Here, I'll hold your hand...

www.rationalresponders.com/pascals_wager

www.rationalresponders.com/refutation_of_pascals_wager_by_massimo_pigliucci

www.rationalresponders.com/pascals_wager_version_2_0

Rook wanted me to throw a few more scientific advancements that were slowed down by Christianity, in fact if it wasn't for the muslims these concpets might have died out completely...

Anaximander of Miletus proposed that life came from water (610-540 BCE)

Thales (624 - 540 BCE) proposed that everything was natural - he was the first naturalist. (The concept that lightning and thunder did not come from Gods but nature)

Xenophanes of Colophon (570-480 BCE) wrote polemics against religion

Leucippus in the fifth century BCE was one of the first proponents of the atom and atomic theory.

Yes, she's constantly growing and working on her life as we all should.  Sorry to see you are still sick, you know with the ad hominem attacks thinking you are a philosopher.  lol

Yes there is, but any sane person would be smart enough to not hand over that info to someone with a propensity to inflict harm, like yourself.  

However should you want to get your daily masturbation out of the way feel free to view these:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/tits

http://video.rationalresponders.com/item/FTBXCCZX2NL3HCHX

http://video.rationalresponders.com/item/YBKBVVPHPJRX1VP3

http://video.rationalresponders.com/item/WCQJ5QP4VKPMTY1C

http://video.rationalresponders.com/item/MVH690SKX57H6DC1

http://video.rationalresponders.com/item/F33F9TJ5S9DP9KSX

That is how you were when you were an atheist?  Have you gotten over the crystal meth(Ted Haggard)?  Is it the guilt of your past that has led you to this abundantly more dangerous and despicable lifestyle?  Oh by the way I just came all over your blog, do you have a towel? 

I can only imagine how hard that must be for you.  At least you recognize your issues, even if you have to project them on to someone else for them to be out in the open.   If you'd like I can escalate my personal insults to another level, all you have to do is follow the same format you've been following.

Your format:

1. Get beat up on by a girl that hasn't graduated college and makes money part time as a stripper

2. Project your flaws on to her.

3. Don't attack any of the arguments, simply launch a bullshit ad hominem tirade against your philosophical superior and hope that people aren't smart enough to see through you.

Keep it up, I promise you'll be even more pissed than you are right now.  I wonder if I can write a nice piece about you that would show up as the first search result in google.  I have a feeling I could.  It would at least make for a fun challenge.

We know plenty about it and we think it sucks and allows  weak arguments to earn undeserved status, often due to the lack of knowldge on the part of the audience. That's how frauds like D'Souza garner so much public favor.

THAT was a formal debate? ROFLMAO! If it was a formal debate, it would have ended about 5 minutes in when Ray brought up the Bible. A moderator would have just ended it because they violated the format.  

Well, thank you, Dr. Freud. Apparently, you never listened to our discussion with Ergun Caner or Fr. Matthew or any of the other theists with whom we have had civil, polite, devoid of profanity discussions.

I can see how you would make the leap that since I insult one person in one post that I must do that in all of my posts. Try reading them before you deem yourself Official Critic of the RRS. 

Does she really strip? I am watching her now on YouTube "Rational Response Squad takes on Christians on ABC" and she's pretty hot. I even believe that her hair color and breasts may be natural. Are they??

By the way, in my blog, I put all my personal information out there.

Anyway, I think Kelly is projecting all her bad stuff on me, so there, blah!!!

And it's a shame ABC did not put me on with you. I would have loved it! I'm serious. You guys are really lame.

But Kelly is seriously cute, if she doesn't mind my saying so.

So in twenty years she'll be lonely and have a cat. Whatever. Believe me I know what I'm talking about.

You really are amazing--you claim to be so vastly superior, but you've never even read any of Plato's Socratic dialogues? Socrates was not an atheist--in fact, he was more of a monotheist in that he worshipped Apollo as the head of the pantheon. He was executed for impiety, and part of that was his lack of worshipping other gods, part was lies made up by people who didn't like his "gadfly" routine. It's all in The Phaedo; you should try reading it. It's remarkably similar to what people do to us because they don't like us, either. Just make shit up.

As far as "unfounded enthusiasm", did you actually read any of the studies I presented?

You are the one with the closed mind and arrogant attitude. I am the one who will tell you that you can shove it up your ass. 

Hot video clip featuring underage dancing girls, to distract the atheist infidels.

By the way, Rational Responders, are you sure you aren’t debauched libertines? Looking at your youtube page, I'm starting to wonder a little.

Please keep reading my blog and writing about it. If you think you're angry now, you won't believe what else I've got out there!