The Ultimate Argument
Offline I have known I was an atheist before I knew there was a term for it. I remember once in Sunday school when I was very young I asked the teacher "Do grown ups really believe all this ?" When she made me sit in the corner and pray I knew she didn't really know the answer and I have been a person of skepticism ever since. So those of you who know what it is like to grow up not believing what everyone else around you is obsessed with can relate to how hard I had to fight with the people in my school, family, and workplace.
I have had many friends who are of faith that I can have rational conversations with about the subject, there was one such friend that I respected greatly and in a particularly spirited argument I was making the point that geological records can confirm the earth is far older than the projected 6000 or so years that his Bible claims. He responded with the most compelling argument I had heard in my life and with his few words I have had very few discussions since. "God created everything in the Universe, so he could have created the rocks to make us think that the earth is older than it is. He is a GOD, he could have created everything 2 minutes ago and we wouldn't know it."
His point was invincible. I could never say something to him that would steer him away from that train of thought. I am still an atheist and he still worships a god, but I have learned that when someone thinks with an irrational mind it is nearly impossible to argue them into rationality. I am not saying that atheists should concede the point, quite the opposite, I think this is a very important discussion to have. I just registered with this website and wanted to make a post about my personal experience with the god fearing.
Thanks,
Octopus_Ink
The wider science expands its horizons the smaller the platform for which god is to stand on.
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Welcome to you, I have only been visiting this site for a month myself. I joined it a few weeks back as I felt I could make a few contributions to the discussions. I have been an atheist for over 35 years at least. I can relate to your early experiences in religion as I had similar ones. I was unfortunately in a very religious family, my mother was an ex-teacher in a Lutheran school. I had to go through about 9 years of that. When I was about 12, I asked my teacher when we were talking about the Exodus a question that he decided was me being a smartass. All I asked was, if there were millions of people wandering the desert for 40 years, where's the trash? This got no answer and me put in the corner in front of the class for about 2 hours.
As to your friend that you think has a point that is unassailable, God creating everything to resemble an age of billions of years. First question is why? Second question is where's the evidence for that? He probably say, right there in the Bible. Where, where it describes the Earth as flat, unicorns, the stars as angels, stars falling to Earth to destroy it (Revelation), or multiple choice accounts of creation in Genesis. Your friend is welcome to believe in Sci-Fi and Fantasy if he'd like, but he can't use a book based in the Land of Never Was to prove it.
I hope you enjoy the forums, they may help you in your understanding.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Actually, that's not really the ultimate argument unless your friend really wants to believe it. Think about it, if god really is this benevolent being, yet actively deceives us, that makes god a complete and unadulterated liar of the first order. Keep in mind that it's not just the earth strata that talks about how long things have been around. All that talks about is the age of the earth itself. You can also look at the sun with a spectrometer, and calculate the age of it, which comes out to over 4 Billion years. You can then turn your telescope to the distant quasars and note the age of the universe itself at over 13 Billion years.
So if your friend wants to believe that god is perfect, and can do no sin (after all, he is more than happy to send you to hell should you break the 10 commandments; of which lying is one of them), then he has to figure out a way to reconcile a god that is perfectly happy to break his own commandment against lying. I'm not so sure his argument will stand up to scrutiny when you put it back to him like that.
Either way, welcome to the forums, and I hope you enjoy your stay here.
All rational and legitimate points, the problem is that the "True Believer" doesn't have to conform to logic, or rationality. I have found that in the heart of someone that believes in god is a desperate need to cling to the one thing in there life that gives it meaning. However in the heart of the Atheist, or Skeptic is a desire to question even the fundamental ideas that hold us together. That desire to further my knowledge and puzzle out the questions of reality, along with the small pleasures I have every day is the very reason I cherish this life more than any theist can.
The wider science expands its horizons the smaller the platform for which god is to stand on.
Welcomes
In regard to your friends comment,doing that would just make god seem crueler than he already does. Deliberatley placing evidence against his existence, which will result in people not believing and going to hell.That's a really bad arguement for a theist to use.Would it have been so hard for god to place some convincing proof he created the earth?If anyone believes their god created the earth and then made it look like they didn't,they are really wacked.
Maybe it doesn't look like god created it because he didn't.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
A little stamp on everything...."made in Mexico by Yahweh".....LOL
The Ultimate Argument ??? "I AM GOD AS YOU" ,
That's the best I could come up with so far ??? Please help ..... 
Atheism Books.
Speed of light. Distance to stars is measured in light years.
The andromeda galaxy is 2.52 MILLION light years away. By comparison, the sun is 8 light minutes away.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
I think the best argument to throw back at theists when they say things like this is use their own logic against them.
When he says something like "He is a god (whatever that means), he could have created everything 2 minutes ago and we wouldn't know it." Say "You're right, the entire universe could also have been created by a flying spaghetti monster last tuesday. Me saying such doesn't mean a thing. Explain to me how your hypothesis about the age of the earth should be favored over the one I just made."
Show him that using such logic you can conclude something equally as absurd, thus showing them that if they are going to make any claims they need to give some form of evidence.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
Last-Tuesdayism. One of those insipid little ideas that, where neither provable nor disprovable, is about as useful as a floor wax in a dirt hut.
I usually counter by claiming that no one else but the Omphalist really exists, we're all placed in his mind by a mad god. I like to add that there are billions of other people out there living in different unrealities. I mean really, once you start down that road you can claim any damn thing you want.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Same here. Mine was getting asked to draw a picture of God. Everyone went right to it, and I said, "but ... isn't God invisible?" "Go sit in the corner."
Haha - I love that argument, and I understand why you call it the "ultimate argument". No rational words could move someone from that kind of insane ranting. Anything invisible could have done all that, why do they pick one specific supernatural creature? Geography, perhaps? Yeah. They're not talking about Marduk or Amon Ra. I still occasionally ask myself, "Do grown ups really believe all this?"
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
The problem with the "God can do anything" argument is fallacious because it works with any God, including the flying spaghetti monster.
After all, you can silence ANY argument against God by saying that God has the power to DEFY ALL LOGIC. Therefor, any logical argument against his existence is irrelevent.
It also implies a DECEPTIVE God. Once you get the person to define their God, ask them if that God is deceptive. If not, the argument falls apart.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful"
-- Seneca
Just ask the theist to present evidence for their deity that could not also be used as evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster (or any other deity of your choosing). Such arguments are immediately thrown out.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
Hope you like the boards, check out the radio shows, some of them are pure gems that'll make you laugh and tug at your hair in frustraition over theistic inanity, others may make you snigger and giggle over the comments that the squad makes.
As for a good statement, try making theists chew on this little tidbit by Hobbes
The plain consequence is (and it is a general maxim worthy of our attention), "That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish."
-Thomas Hobbes, what a guy
And this is where all superstition thorougly meets the brick wall of reason on which it does not inflict a single scratch as it splatters all over it.
Oh, and check out the geologic podcast, way fun stuff
If any christian is sure that rapture is imminient, I'll be happy to receive their worldly goods, thus ensuring that said theist don't have trouble with the camel, rich man and eye of a needle problem.
I disagree with that argument. Your friend is implying that god causes confusion which in christian terms is the work of the devil.
Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown
Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself
So ... when it's good, it's God, but when it's bad, it's the Devil? So God just stops being omnipotent for a second while the Devil does his thing?
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Exactly! Read the Book of Job for one. Though it all could have been for a side bet that wasn't mentioned. Really, Yahweh or God of Abe exhibited APD (antisocial personality disorder) many times in the Old Testament. Other times he was just acting out his schizophrenic nature no doubt caused by the inane ongoing worship of the four winged beasts and 24 elders in Revelation 4:1-11. Hearing this over and over again would drive any god to create humans for entertainment and amusement.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
For us think of something like the age of the earth. Clearly way older than the 6000 year bs that the christians propose. This is obviously an inconsistancy that we have recognized and invalidates arguments. If we want to destroy religion perhaps we shouldnt even use science to do so. Religion, I think, has enough inconsistancies to destroy itself. A method I think worth trying on theists is encourage them to read the bible or other book. Hell even do it with them and ask questions in a not threatening way before you actually pull something out and say hey look you dont really believe that. For example, ask the person this question "Do you think it is right under any circumstances to kill your mother or father?" the obvious answer i hope is a no...then point to a verse like in Deut 13:6 that is ok to kill a relative ie mother father, brother etc if they try and get you to believe in another god. I think this simple method of questioning which uses only religion and what most people find to be common morals of society could be used to open up a persons mind who is wanting to talk about theism etc..
Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown
Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself
The funny thing is that we're not really even that amusing. Imagine watching the news all day. Even if it's sensationalized, like CNN or Fox, it's still pretty boring. So not only is the alleged creator's hobby boring, but its sadism isn't even that creative. How wacky is that?
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Even multiple gods is better than one. That way, sometimes Zeus has his back turned, and Hera causes some shit, and then Zeus turns into a swan and gets into some chick's pants. That's way more entertaining for everyone. I mean, it should at least be a good story as long as you're making things up.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
You guys are great, posts 18 - 20 deserve a bump. I AM emailing that out ...... Run for public office , we need you .... lol from gawed ....
Atheism Books.
Hi folks, this is my first post in the forums as well. I have posted on the comments sections of articles before.
My answer to your friend is simple. Posit that a great snail like being created us only one moment ago and that this asexual no-gender being is not really a snail ( but that is the closest analog we have). Next posit that the snail did not create an actual universe but a virtual one, in its own slimiferous mind and that we are merely the thoughts of the snail. You can print it on a piece of paper, make a video about it or simply say so and that is proof because the snail-like creator and its virtual reality are the divine truth and your conveyance is the inspired words of the self reflection of the snail through its own thoughts.
Further, the snailish thingy cares not a snit about humans; it did not plant the bible and dinosaur bones to trick us. Everything is all simply by products of the snail-like beings omnipotent imagination.
Ask your friend to prove you wrong conclusively.
If he thinks he can, use his arguments to prove his made up myth is wrong.
If he cannot.... touche!
To Hell with God and Religion. Except for Kali, she's hot.
I believe you mean "in Its Holy Slimiferousness". Gosh.
You'd be amazed how little reason affects the serious believer. Winning an argument isn't even half the battle.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence