The Jesus story
Offline I am very new here, so I apologize if this topic is worn out, over-tired, etc.
My question is that of what other atheists think about Jesus (assuming he existed).
Despite my complete enjoyment of the movie The God Who Wasn't There, I think that it is probable that a man named Jesus did in fact exist, and he had a profound impact on society. I truly am an atheist and do not believe in any way that Jesus was anything but mortal. After reading a lot on this topic, I have come up with my own theories on what happened with that dude, and I am curious what others on this site think about that. So, here goes:
Sometime around 3-5 BC, Jesus was born. This birth was uneventful and probably occured in Nazarath in Judea - probably to Mary and Joseph, a married couple who had sex and made a baby. Nothing of note occured to Jesus or his family until he was nearly 30. That is when he went about preaching social reform, and was VERY good at it. Created quite a following. The things he said were the kind of things that any society could find useful: treat your neighbor like you would want to be treated, help the poor, turn the other cheek, don't lie, cheat or steal. These are what I would call "good" things. Jesus went to some extreme measures to attract a crowd and prove his point, which sometimes involved throwing a wrench in the tax-collecting process because of it's coercive church ties. This behavior ended up getting him killed. However, his preaching had a lasting effect on society. Decades later, people who had never met Jesus, but who had heard stories passed down though a couple generations, interpreted these events with skewed reality. Because of his impact, it had become commonly thought that Jesus was the prophecised messiah. For this to be true, he would have to have been born in the City of David - Bethlehem, and thus, a story was manufactured to make this appear true. This is why the Xmas story is so historically ridiculous and why there is virtually no stories anywhere EVER about Jesus between the ages of 0-25.
Thoughts?
And if you're curious, a brief history on me:
1. Until about the 3rd grade, religion didn't really play any notable part in my life.
2. At that time parents had a bit of marital trouble, and SURPRISE!, we started going to a small town non-denominational church.
3. From 3rd grade to 11th grade, I was a committed Christian, learning about, believing in, etc, god.
4. I began to question the existence of god as a senior in high school. That "questioning" period lasted about 2-3 years, until I finally came out and declared that I don't believe in anything supernatural
I am definately a "strong atheist". I believe that absolutely nothing is supernatural, that everything can be explained, even if humanity doesn't yet know how to explain it. This gives me an enormous feeling of freedom. That feeling is a huge value-add to daily life.
Furthermore, I try to do "good" for the sake of itself, not because I think it would please a god or gods. I think that is morally superior to doing "good" because of religious reasons. Although, I have certainly met Christians who seem to be very "good", not judgemental, and not always trying to spread their religion to others. But most of them do.
I studied Christianity hard and remember most all of it, so I am fairly knowledgable about biblical things, hence, whenever I get involved in any kind of religious argument (which I really try to avoid - honest) I am not popular amoung the Christians.
I am now 34 years old and am just starting to actively study the history of Christianity more - for the sake of being able to better explain to people why I don't believe. It has gotten more important since the birth of my daught 5 months ago, as my wife's parents really wanted to have her baptised. Now, normally, I might allow something like this to take place for the sake of keeping life harmonious (for example, when we visit them, we all go to church, I'll even sing the hymns, etc. although I don't pretend to pray), but baptism was crossing a line. For one thing, John the Baptist said "Repent and be baptised" which leaves no question to me that the person being baptised must have some knowledge about what is happening to them. If my daughter, when she is older, wants to be baptised, I'll support her, but at 5 months old, it's insane, and I wanted no part of it. Luckily, the church wouldn't do it anyway if the parents were not members. Whew!
- Login to post comments
Welcome to the hizzle. Note many of us are "Jesus Mythicists" - which means we think he never really existed - based on total lack of evidence for his ever living and the fact that the Jesus story is so similar to earlier pagan myths.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Jesus being a common name and faith healer being a common profession around 0 CE... I'd have to say I'm not a "Strong" Jesus Mythicist. We really have no way right now of knowing whether or not the events in the New Testament actually attest to the life of a single person, or whether "Jesus" was a composite personality.
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”
Thanks for the welcome, I am feeling quite at home here in said hizzle.
Please note as well that I have no problem with the idea of "Jesus Mythicism" and think it is perfectly plausible that he never existed. I could restate the whole thing by saying:
"If you would, for the sake of argument, consider the idea that Jesus DID exist (but, not that there are any supernatural events EVER) how do you think it would all have shaken out?"
But, I put myself in the shoes of a Jesus Mysticist and would see how they would have trouble getting into that one.
Got any particular pagan myths that you think the Jesus story has most adherance to?
(by the way, I personally think that it was those pagan myths upon which the supernatural crap was based on - particularly the virgin birth being a Greek idea millinea before)
<also note that I did say "assuming he existed" in the first line, recognizing the Jesus Mysticists out there>
Well, despite what Christards (and even some non-believers) say, the Jesus character wasn't that good of a person:
http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/jesus.php
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Thank you Captain Shizzle! <salutes>
That is exactly the kind of link I wanted to read.
b
Please check out the following link (it is better):
http://www.rationalresponders.com/jesus_mythicist_position_revised_2008
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)
I studied the Jesus story many times, first as a Christian and later as a non-believer. In my research I concluded that Robin Hood has a higher probability of actual existence than did Jesus of the Christians. If he did exist, he really wasn’t very well known or even noticed in his own country. Many writers who lived in the area never took note of him. If Jesus had such a large following as described where they tagged after him everywhere he went, why for example did Philo of Alexandria not notice. A writer of significance, Justus of Tiberias was his contemporary, living in Galilee, and he didn’t take note of him either. One reference by Josephus is made of Jesus in reference to James the Just, but my opinion is Bishop Eusebius faked it or someone else, as Origen’s copy of the Antiquities didn’t seem to have it.
Another miracle worker at the time, Apollonius of Tyana was said to have performed thousands of miracles, just like Jesus. There is a lot of historical documentation on him, though not thanks to the Church. They tried to suppress and destroy all they could of any mention of him.
I personally have only been inside a church for funerals and weddings since I concluded it was all myths and legends. I think participating in any way is counter-productive and certainly not good for your own well being. Since your wife must have known about your views due to your statement that you decided you were an atheist in the 11th grade, she shouldn't expect you to play a game for harmony. I wouldn't go to a church and participate, and I have a religious fanatic sister and a niece that is a missionary. Unfortunately I did have my children baptised back when I was a believer, though it didn't seem to harm them. Neither one is a believer now.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I understand your point, but my current practice makes my life easier. This is a different situation for everyone. My wife is not religious, but I wouldn't call her an atheist. She just doesn't really care. Sometimes I envy her for that. In the grand scheme of things, me going to church with her family twice a year is pretty insignificant, imho.
Thanks for that wealth of info, btw. This is why I joined this site.
I again ask the question:
Does anyone have any good specific pagan myth references that mirror the "Jesus story"?
b
Um, yeah, so I am starting to become embarrassed at my initial thread. What a great read. Far far better than nearly every other piece of debate literature that I have read up to now on either side. Fuckin' A.
No worries. This is all a part of being a student of knowledge. We're free thinkers, and when new information presents itself, we adjust our understanding and opinions to fit that information. Welcome to the campaign.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)
I've read some of Rooks stuff in the past and it's clear that this man never existed. Before I was exposed to the reality of things I always thought that if this man was a real person he was either crazy, or a con-man...
Slimm,
Thanks Slimm. =)