Here is the proof of God's existence for those that have the guts!
Offline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTcZXb5wGDU
How do you explain the existence of the Virgin Mary and the scientfically proven miracles that have occurred at Fatima, Lourdes, Akita, Zeitun. If there is a Virgin Mary, then...Jesus, ya think? 100's of thousands see these miracles and you say there is no proof?
If you are sincerely seeking the truth, then you will find it. If you are working against God, then I am certain you will not respond to this message, and that will be proof that you are representing the "dark side" so to speak.
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Offline Well, since the 16th century anyway. But bashing in the skulls of the newly baptized so they won't revert to pagan religions later in life is hardly the same as knocking on doors on Saturday mornings and street preaching. Hope the mods don't ban this sad individual. He could be fun for months to come. A hearty welcome, sierra.
For that matter, here's a question: why are your other Catholic friends so lax in promoting their faith?. They'll defend it and volunteer and give alms, I'll grant you, but they seem to avoid going so far as to going among the unsaved and advocating the Gospel on its own wobbly merits. It may be that that's considered best left to the clergy, though in modern times a Catholic priest walking through a strange neighborhood and attempting to witness would have a legitimate fear for his teeth, kneecaps or life. I think it's because so many of you are ashamed of what your particular stripe of Christianity represents. And that's proof you have a working conscience.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
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Offline This thread reminds me of a comic I now can't find. Jesus stands in heaven, thinking of all this death and suffering on earth. How can I show them I care? I know! I'll appear in a grilled cheese sandwich!
What is the point of all these 'miracles'? If god wants to reveal himslef to us, why doesn't he just do it, instead of messing round with little visions few will take seriously.The standard theist answer is free will. That's irrelevant, as we would still have free will to serve or not serve, we'd just know for sure he exists. And he obvioulsy doesn't have much regard for the free will of the thousands that supposedly saw these miracles. So why reveal himself to them and not the rest of the world? Why do they get to see something that might save them while the rest of us got to hell?
If any of these were true, it would be more of a testament against god. What is he, sitting around making random little visions for select people? People see what they want to, and theists will go to any length to prove what they say was real. If that includes lying, so be it.
Really, this is little different from argument from personal experience. Most of these miracles have been debunked long before you got here, and it's important to remember one thing. If we can't explain something in life, it doesn't automatically mean godunit.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Offline
"Well, since the 16th century anyway. But bashing in the skulls of the newly baptized so they won't revert to pagan religions later in life is hardly the same as knocking on doors on Saturday mornings and street preaching. Hope the mods don't ban this sad individual. He could be fun for months to come. A hearty welcome, sierra."
Thank you for the welcome. Honestly thought I would be banned right away.
"For that matter, here's a question: why are your other Catholic friends so lax in
promoting their faith?. "
I do not know, probably because they are lukewarm. What Catholics do, or Muslims terrorists do, or any other religion or lack thereof has or done-does not represent the doctrine of the whole.
"They'll defend it and volunteer and give alms, I'll grant you, but they seem to avoid going so far as to going among the unsaved and advocating the Gospel on its own wobbly merits. It may be that that's considered best left to the clergy, though in modern times a Catholic priest walking through a strange neighborhood and attempting to witness would have a legitimate fear for his teeth, kneecaps or life. I think it's because so many of you are ashamed of what your particular stripe of Christianity represents. And that's proof you have a working conscience."
So, if a police officer is corrupt, does that me the entire police force is corrupt?
Regarding prayer for you all...hey, its my time and energy, and it works!
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Offline Thank you for the welcome. Honestly thought I would be banned right away.
Actually, I think you'll find that's something that happens on christian(and catholic if you must be fussy) forums. Besides, who would we debate if we banned theists on sight?
Regarding prayer for you all...hey, its my time and energy, and it works!
Would you like to provide some evidence of that?
edit-I can't get the quotes to behave properly
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Offline "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."
Kind of says it all really. I can see that Jesus Himself would have to appear to you for you to believe. Based on all the facts I have submitted, you can see the photos with your own eyes, you can read documents of actual events that occurred (recently no less-Padre Pio). A reasonable person would at least consider the possibility that some of these events have unanswered questions, or require you to research further just to be sure that sierra is wrong. What if I am right? What if your minds are the ones who are in darkness, not seeing the light of truth?
I have had literally thousands of personal experiences of God that far outweigh what I have shared here, which is proof for me beyond a shadow of doubt that I am experiencing truth. Yes, I could share those, but you would have to trust me, which is impossible...since you refuse to trust God on His word and promises.
Like I said, if Jesus were to appear to you today, right now, would you then believe? Sadly, I think it is not a matter of believing, it seems it an issue of serving. You are all trying to put yourselves in the place of God, and stating to Him, I will not serve! I will not obey. Well, that is your choice; its called free will. Stop saying it is because you do not believe, it is that you refuse to have faith, you refuse to obey God and His word. That is the truth which you have to deal with.
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"Well, since the 16th century anyway. But bashing in the skulls of the newly baptized so they won't revert to pagan religions later in life is hardly the same as knocking on doors on Saturday mornings and street preaching. Hope the mods don't ban this sad individual. He could be fun for months to come. A hearty welcome, sierra."
Thank you for the welcome. Honestly thought I would be banned right away.
"For that matter, here's a question: why are your other Catholic friends so lax in
promoting their faith?. "
I do not know, probably because they are lukewarm. What Catholics do, or Muslims terrorists do, or any other religion or lack thereof has or done-does not represent the doctrine of the whole.
"They'll defend it and volunteer and give alms, I'll grant you, but they seem to avoid going so far as to going among the unsaved and advocating the Gospel on its own wobbly merits. It may be that that's considered best left to the clergy, though in modern times a Catholic priest walking through a strange neighborhood and attempting to witness would have a legitimate fear for his teeth, kneecaps or life. I think it's because so many of you are ashamed of what your particular stripe of Christianity represents. And that's proof you have a working conscience."
So, if a police officer is corrupt, does that me the entire police force is corrupt?
Regarding prayer for you all...hey, its my time and energy, and it works!
So, because you are more aggressive in posting your stuff and more stubborn about not answering the refutations posted, that makes you a better Catholic?
No, the whole force is not necessarily corrupt. But if the chief condones the corruption and instead of disciplining the officer just moves him to another precinct, doesn't it make you question things (just a little)?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline Stop saying it is because you do not believe, it is that you refuse to have faith, you refuse to obey God and His word. That is the truth which you have to deal with.
Many here DID believe and have faith. They obeyed god's word perfectly. Don't make assumptions. You're pretty much bordering on No True Scotsman fallacy.
Another thing-personl experiences mean nothing. I don't care how many you've had, I've had them too. In your current state of faith you interpert them as what you want them to be. Experiences of god. Going on about them isn't going to convince anyone, because you can't prove jack. Frankly, I think the reason theists use it is because it's a cop out. It can't be proven or disproven.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Offline "Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed'” (John 20:29).
This brief explanation is key in explaining Psalm 14:1. "The fool says in his heart, there is no God". This sums it up much better than I have done.
http://members.aol.com/BaxterInstitute/Fool.html
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Offline I don't even know what to say. So you think you'll find lots of atheists that are 'intellctually and morally dulled' and that they are 'unteachable'? Besides being insulting and completly baseless, I'm not sure what you hoped to achieve with that. That is incredibly biased writing. Yes, I know, I can't see the truth in it because I don't believe..
I used to be exactly like you.Well, I might have told everyone they're going to hell. I get where you're coming from, but it's not helping.
By the way, the fool says in his heart:there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster
You just have to believe to see him!
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Offline "Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed'” (John 20:29).
This brief explanation is key in explaining Psalm 14:1. "The fool says in his heart, there is no God". This sums it up much better than I have done.
http://members.aol.com/BaxterInstitute/Fool.html
Good to know you're going to hell as well.
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matt 5:22)
Why ignore the words of your Christ?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline The summary according to your opinion. Poorly done I might add.
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Offline I posted this in another thread because I did not see it here until afterward.
Since I cannot respond there, here is my response to Shikko:
How can it be a delusion if cameras see the image?
I answer your simple question below. Here is a simple question for you to answer in return:
Do you believe everything you experience, whether that's seeing it, hearing it or reading it? This is a serious question that should have a "yes" or "no" answer.
http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian7.htm
By the way, I am not proselytizing here. This is a simple question which no one can ever answer for me. We all see this image as depicted above, you cannot give me some dumb eye test or some magic trick video to explain this away. Do not compare false apparitions, false teachers, and magic with reality.
To answer your simple question, I first have to correct it: "delusions" are had by people, not cameras. "Illusions" are tricks involving light and the way vision works. So the question you're asking will be answerable once it's rephrased as "how can it be an illusion if cameras see the image?"
That has a couple of answers. First, an illusion can work either "live" with the naked eye or photographed, hence my link to the illusion (which is a great one, because it actually looks like it's moving, something your purported photo doesn't do). So, cameras lie all the time.
Second, you've made a lot of assumptions we aren't making. You've assumed that 1) the photo is undoctored, 2) the story behind the photo is genuine and 3) the photo shows exactly one thing. Until you can prove all of those things, that photo is at best a cool trick of the light and at worst a deliberate fraud.
Sorry.
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maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
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Offline Yes, my posts have become proselytizing. However, the definition of proselytizing indicates that everyone on this board is proselytizing in one way or another.
True, but so far I've seen nothing new from you.
Although, some here are searching for truth, and figure that unless God's existence can be proven to them, (like doubting Thomas), they will not believe. I hope that those who are searching find Him.
You think your words appealing to come back will make any difference to someone that has spent a considerable amount of time studying religion and the myths backing it?
I have researched all my life (41 years) and have been objective to all beliefs. I have experienced personally what I am saying here, therefore it is truth to me.
Really! Exactly what did you research?
You all have found what you believe to be truth for you, through your experience and study, I do not deny that. However, our minds are finite, God is inifinite. Seems like quite a lot of intellectual arrogance to think that we have achieved enough knowledge on our own to deny the existence of God. Also, pretty darn ungrateful to not be thankful and humble to the God that gave us life.
Jill isn't the only ex-Christian relapsed Catholic heretic here, there are plenty more of us. To quote a famous reaper Roxy "You don't know us". Some of us went to parochial school, were involved in the Church considerably with a great deal of knowledge on the myths involved in Catholicism.
By the way, I serve and obey out of love of God, not fear. He is worthy of all praise and thanksgiving, I unworthy servant can't even do justice to Him here in this forum.
You have had this proven to you somehow? All we talking about the same sadistic schizophrenic I've read about in the Bible? This would be the one who takes credit and liability for all, as in Isaiah 45:7 Douay-Rheims "I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things."
My hope for you is that you open your eyes to the fact that what you have been taught is not true. Try actually being objective in your research.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
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Offline The summary according to your opinion. Poorly done I might add.
Touched a nerve?
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Offline Flying spaghetti monster? No evidence whatsover that this exists. Bad logic, here's why. I have given you countless examples with photos, Padre Pio with actual wounds of Christ, incorrupt bodies, and most importantly, the word of God. I have also stated logically why faith is a key component of the whole process.
The analogy is weak at best.
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Offline sierra wrote:
The summary according to your opinion. Poorly done I might add.
Touched a nerve?
No. Just wanted to make sure that everyone knew I saw it, and I reject it as false and weak. Pandering really.
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Offline Regarding all faiths: the Catholic Church teaches there is salvation in other religions. Therefore, a devout Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist can go to heaven. Therefore, it is incorrect to state the question "which God?, what religion?" and if you get it wrong, you go to hell. That is another lie and misunderstanding. I will concur that is a Protestant teaching, that unless you accept Jesus as your personal savior, you will go to hell. That is not a Catholic teaching, there is salvation for those that have not done this.
So how do they square this with the requirements of communion and confession?
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maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
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Offline You think your words appealing to come back will make any difference to someone that has spent a considerable amount of time studying religion and the myths backing it.
Yes, I do.
Really! Exactly what did you research?
Had no specific beliefs when I was younger. Studied science, world religions, history, sociology and many cultural belief systems. Fascinating really. I came to my Catholic belief system through a series of remarkable revelations of truth, study, personal experiences beyond explanation of science, faith, and most importantly God's grace.
You have had this proven to you somehow?
Yes, I have repeatedly answered that question. I know to state personal experience as proof does not help you however.
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Offline The Buybull is - in your opinion - the word of God. We don't think so. Faith is a terrible reason to believe something. Basically it's at best guessing at worst making shit up.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
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Offline Flying spaghetti monster? No evidence whatsover that this exists. Bad logic, here's why. I have given you countless examples with photos, Padre Pio with actual wounds of Christ, incorrupt bodies, and most importantly, the word of God. I have also stated logically why faith is a key component of the whole process. The analogy is weak at best.
I didn't bring up the FSM although your God is just as real.
I brought up the question of why you're so happy to call people fools against your Christ's edict.
You've given us some stuff. Others have shown you evidence that some of it was fraudulent (Padre Pio's acid-induced stigmata). Still others have brought up the point that the "incorruptibles have never been tested by science (because the Church doesn't want their illusions shattered?). Going to take those on at some point?
Using the Bible to prove God is an exercise in circular logic. You also can't logically claim that an illogical concept (faith) is useful for anything.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline So how do they square this with the requirements of communion and confession?
Here is your answer from Catholic teaching:
<Lumen gentium> #16 says: "For they who without their own fault do not
know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere
heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in
practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain
eternal salvation."
And here is the rest of the answer if you want more detail:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT
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Offline Because god HAS to be white. After all, ALL of the most advanced nations on the planet are white, right? I mean, what do you expect, that a woman whose ENTIRE FAMILY SINCE THE CREATION OF THE EARTH was from the middle east would be anything other than western European/caucasian?
Somebody needs to read "Guns, germs, and steel". Race has nothing to do why the most "advanced" nations nowadays are full of white people, it's all about how resources were distributed across the planet.
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"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Here is the best I can do for you at the moment:
http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian7.htm
Out of the 100's of thousands there at Zeitun, not one single person could prove it false! By the way, many apparitions have been proven false, therefore, why have the ones I posted stood the test of time?? Kind of makes you think, eh?
Lourdes, Fatima, Zeitun, Akita, Kibeho, and OUR LADY OF SOUFANIEH, DAMASCUS, SYRIA, all approved by the Catholic Church. While many others have been condemned by the Church as false apparitions.
Just because I can reply to everything does not mean I am not listening. Just incredibly weak posts and responses to my posts with utter nonsense and Pen and Teller goofiness. Proves my points actually that no one can dispute these facts. No substantial reason for me to change my beliefs. NONE!!!!!
I watched the first Pen and Teller, have not seen the other two yet, hope they have something substantial like the stuff I have been posting. Its always the grilled cheese or image in doorways etc...Never will the media truly investigate the real apparitions in and of themselves without bringing up the nonsense to discredit them. Typical!
Like I said before, sierra, you've made your decisions and now you've closed your mind to anything else to protect your conclusions. I know you'll try to claim that for me as well; there is a difference between being a skeptic who questions people's assertions and putting your fingers in your ears, squeezing your eyes shut and humming real loud.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
So why did Jesus say someone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit "Will never be forgiven?" He didn't say "Unless God decides to forgive you anyway." "Shall never be forgiven" is pretty fucking clear. Are you calling Jesus a liar? Or saying he was mistaken?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Fatima and Lourdes are the SAME place and it was witnessed by THREE (3) LITTLE GIRLS, not hundreds of thousands. Akita and Zeitun had fewer witnesses, explain that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Fatima is in Portugal. The apparitions there were in 1917 by 3 children. The miracle of the sun was witnessed by all, including the skeptics and communist authorities. Over 100,000 saw the miracle.
Lourdes is in France. The apparitions took place in 1858. Bernadette Soubirous. (rent the movie Song of Bernadette). Countless miraculous healings that medical doctors nor science can explain from the waters of Lourdes which still occur today! Thousands have seen miracles of healings.
Zeitun-Millions saw the Virgin Mary along with atheists. All present saw her. Sometimes carrying the baby Jesus. Sometimes with doves representing the Holy Spirit.
Clearly your mind is closed to the truth since you posted before even researching what you were talking about.
No, not disputing scripture or calling Jesus a liar. Simply saying that some people will not be held accountable for blaspheming God or the Holy Spirit due to circumstances, mental issues, Satanic influences, upbringing, or a host of other reasons that only God knows and can judge. I will affirm that this blaspheming deal you are all so proud of is sick and saddening and quite dangerous to your souls.
I know Pascals Wager has been debated before, however, why take the chance? What do you gain? You certainly do not lose anything by loving God and loving your neighbor. Half of that should be your ideal anyway. Why not add the other half and experience what true Christians experience? Yes, many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion. That does not mean religion is bad, it means that human beings were wrong. God is never wrong.
Jill-sad you think my mind is closed. Not true. I am not very eloquent. Not a debater on this topic. Simply happened upon this site and thought I would share and try and discuss. Seems like anything I say is falling on deaf ears, closed minds, and eyes wide shut.
Plus, after watching the Pen and Teller videos, what little IQ I have has been sucked even lower. I should have taken the advice of the HeyZeus person who said I would not watch them.
Although I am Catholic, I discovered this site through The Way of the Master debate on YouTube between Kirk Cameron and your Brian and Kelly.
You will have to search for it yourself since my posting link privileges seem to have been removed.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mrHJ_a2syWk
okay here is the link for the debate.
100's of thousands or millions, for zeitun? because you keep changing the numbers. Second, healing waters? ok sure, once you can show me proper scientific papers proving this no problem, but claims by people about miraculous healings don't usually persuade me, Faitma was 3 girls that saw it, as for the sun part it was roughly 70,000 people, atheists? communists? No there were some pro-government reporters, however no one in the world besides that little part of the world saw this so called miracle, now the sun, is viewed across the area that is facing the sun, therefore, no cosmic laws can be violated unless it is viewed by those that at that moment had sunlight. So yes mass hallucinations have occurred as well. So sorry that story doesn't correlate to me.
Lourdes was witness many times by a single girl, at the height it was 15,000, it was a one time thing that 15,000 saw it (after the 12 so called appearance), of the 7000 so called miraculous healings only 68 are unexplainable, really come on man, there have been many unexplained cures throughout history, even in modern times, this still doesn't make it god, take things with a grain of salt here because. As well the only person, trained as a doctor, didn't bother to try to explain what he saw, he simply wrote about it, as stated by his own words.
Clearly your mind is deluded into trying to make your god and faith real.
If you want to believe in religion as a comforting placebo then go for it. If you want comfort then believe in it. If you want truth, then try and be honest to yourself. I told you that this way (atheism) is truth not peace.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Not true latin. Once one experiences God with their soul, it is no longer just part of the mind. When your heart, mind, and soul are closed to
God, you simply cannot comprehend what I am talking about. This is not an intellectual discussion alone. This is dealing with things beyond words, beyond our minds, and yet, one of the greatest scientific minds of all time, Albert Einstein believed in God.
The debate on YoTube between Brian/Kelly and Kirk/Ray was actually quite interesting. The point that was missed by Brian and Kelly is this. Kirk and Ray won! You see, their goal was to reveal God's truth. It was like parables to Brian and Kelly. Their minds were closed to God's truth. Watch the debates with an open mind, heart and soul. Say a prayer to God to reveal the truth in this debate to you. Perhaps the blinders and veil will fall and you will understand.
I am praying for each of you on this board.
Yeah, lies never work with me, I know, god's truth is just a huge lie, he doesn't exist, not the christian god, not the catholic god, not the muslim god, nor brahma, you see this the thing, all your evidence really isn't evidence, if you cannot explain, then it isn't evidence for or against your god, it's just an unexplainable event. You don't get that, oh and you and about close to 1000 other people are praying for me......33 years as an atheist, died once, got to live again......still no belief in god, no soul either, yet another imagined thing of religion/man. Second I do have an open mind, as for open heart...well it's muscle and it opens and closes it' valves constantly...otherwise I be dead. My mind however is open to the evidence, and so far.....no evidence. Thank you come again.
I would venture to say that most atheists are angry with God. This is their way of getting even with God, to deny Him.
Regarding lies: You do have a soul. That is not a lie. It is hard to understand when you have closed yourself to this truth. Like I said before, in the debate which you can watch for yourself, the truth is there plain and simple. Jumped right out for me, then again, I was open to hearing it. Remember, I am a devout Catholic, and yet I was open minded to watch a Protestant program.
Regarding all faiths: the Catholic Church teaches there is salvation in other religions. Therefore, a devout Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist can go to heaven. Therefore, it is incorrect to state the question "which God?, what religion?" and if you get it wrong, you go to hell. That is another lie and misunderstanding. I will concur that is a Protestant teaching, that unless you accept Jesus as your personal savior, you will go to hell. That is not a Catholic teaching, there is salvation for those that have not done this.
It has occurred to me that many do not hate or deny religion, faith, or God, rather they hate or deny what they think they know about religion and faith. Seems there is a huge gap there based on today's discussion.
Example, see after the debate discussion with Brian Sapient on YouTube. Its not that Christianity is trying to hurt women by stopping abortion. It is Christian people who are trying to get across the simple fact that human life begins at conception, therefore abortion is murder. Do any atheists believe abortion is murder? You do not have to believe in God to believe that abortion is murder!
Please show us the scientific and medical proof. Some woman claiming to be a doctor who's seen miracles is no more credible to me than a doctor claiming to have been abducted by little grey men from Zeta Reticula.
Higher standards maketh an atheist.
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”
You do realize that Einstein didn't really believe in God, don't you? If you want to mock science, intellect and reality, have a ball, but at least stick to the basic facts.
COME TO THE DARK SIDE -- WE HAVE COOKIES
Ah, the "I-Don't-Understand-Science-So-There-Must-Be-A-God" argument. An oldy but a goody.
Pray all you want. But for every minute you pray, I want you to spend a minute doing something measurably productive for your fellow human beings, like figuring out how to reduce your personal carbon footprint.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
ummm , so AWE is god , now what DOGMA ? DOGMAWE ! ..... ever heard of LSD and know how it works and why ?
..... Did ya ever consider the invisible aliens are just teasing us ? Sheezzz
Atheism Books.
It completely blows me away that adults honestly believe the shit you are espousing as "truth".
You do NOT have a "soul", neither does anyone else. I know it sucks, but it's reality.
There is no such thing as miracles. Short of being retarded, how can you believe any of that crap? Your evidence is on par with the evidence supporting Big Foot and the Loch Ness monster. Shame on you!
There is NO god. Sure it would be nice to have some personal psychopath I could worship, eh fuck that. You can keep that concept all to yourself.
Your christian bible is the greatest LIE ever used to enslave humanity.
And while the decision to have an abortion is always devastating, it is NOT murder.
Respectfully,
Lenny
"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush
Ok I know, reality can be a bitch, you are angry at reality, therefore you have fallen for this belief in god, a merciful (but not really if you have bothered to study the bible, guess what I have), all loving (again not really) full of justice (again not really) god that will grant you eternal life after your body dies, that this soul (again something that doesn't exist and cannot be proven to exist) will go to heaven and you will be happy and without pain for the rest of eternity, but the truth is, it is all a lie, you have fallen for an ancient lie, reality is a bitch, justice doesn't always happen, sometimes bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people, that's life, that's all part of reality, that's the truth, learn to deal with it, stop believing in some fantasy and live in the real world, prayers don't work, miracles don't happen, god doesn't exist, and jesus wasn't divine.
Here is the kicker, I have been an atheist my entire life, I have no reason to be angry with god, I cannot be angry with that which I do not believe in, just like I am not angry with brahma, vishnu or shiva, or with allah, or with Zeus, or Thor, or Gaia or any other supernatural deity or god that I do not believe in. Now I can be angry with the actions of the followers of these gods, which lets admit they are no saints
. With that said, I am angry with actions of people, but not angry with god, I can't be, something you have to understand. So as much as you like to believe all atheists are angry with god, it is simply not true, sorry but that's the truth....that's the reality of it.
Thread summary based on what I've seen so far:
1) I do believe in God! I do! I do! I do believe in God!
2) Therefore, God exists.
1) If you'll only let yourself believe in god for a minute, then you would know what it's like to believe in god.
2) Therefore, God exists.
1) Let's say, for the sake of argument, that God isn't real.
2) That's just absurd.
3) Therefore, God exists.
1) I'll be praying for you.
2) Therefore, God exists.
1) Atheists say they don't need to believe in God.
2) That only shows how much they need to believe in God.
3) Therefore, God exists.
1) Something happened that I don't understand.
2) I guess that means I can just explain it in whatever way appeals to me.
3) Therefore, God exits.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
You are so godly Latincanuk , such a "savior" , where ya been ..... off doing 40 days ! .... say that again 10,000 ways .....
Atheism Books.
You have left out Semos. I will pray you escape his wrath. Please don't turn away from Semos, he loves you. It would be awful if you had to burn in a fiery pit for eternity, simply because you denied him and didn't return your love to him.
Attempt #? Hyperbole
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
actually I AM GOD AS YOU, it was only 39 days, I spent the 40th with a beautiful red head (I have such a weakness for red heads), as for saying that 10,000 ways....sorry I only know 9999 ways, I am working on the 10,000 way.
Oh look, while I was sleeping I missed 3 pages of inane drivel including:
Pascal's Wager
Atheists are angry at god
Einstein believed in god
Do you have any new arguments? Still at least he's praying for us, which is nice. The more time he spends talking to the ceiling, the less time he can spend saying this stuff.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
uhmm...original scripture never mentioned Mary being a virgin...so, yeah.
Well, it's good to see a reference from my neck of the woods.
La Virgen de Guadalupe (the virgin of Guadalupe) is a fraud. First, for everyone not familiarized with the VoG, here a little something that covers the basics of the story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe
Now, a little Mexican history lesson for ya. Since the surrender of the Aztec empire in 1521 to the Spaniard forces of Hernan Cortez (and well before that), the indian people suffered from pillage, enslavement, rape and torture by their conquerers. The indians of the New Spain were little more than second class citizens under the yoke of the conquistadors and the governadores, land administrators appointed by the crown. But, even if the war of conquest was over, a different war was being waged with comparatively less success: a cultural war.
The culture of the Aztecs and other indigenous people were systematically being replaced by the values, culture and religion of the Spanish lords. I say it was comparatively less successful, but rather I should call it inversely proportional, for as the New Spain took deeper roots in the region, so did the indians rejection and resistance to it's very presence. Several minor rebellions and uprisings took place in the conquered territories. Many accounts of indigens secretly worshiping their gods and following their old customs were noted in this period. So as it was noted the brutal sanctions imposed on those even suspected of keeping "pagan belief", often under pain of death. As a side note, a humorous folk tale comes to mind: During this time, a priest urged some local indigens to do away with their pagan rituals by pointing out to the barbarism and sanguinary cruelty of their blood-demanding gods, the indigens quickly pointed out to the image of Jesus, nailed to the cross and replied: "your god lusts for blood too".
Now, by looking at this state of affairs, it is fair to say the indigens were more than reluctant to have their cultural and religious beliefs substituted, specially for those of their conquerors. This continued for years, until that event which would make way for christianity in the new world: the apparition of the VoG to Juan Diego and the latter miracle of the tilma. In the following ten years New Spain was a catholic country.
The trick here? The VoG is a syncretic representation of both the Guadalupe of Extremadura, a Spanish Marian representation (one of Spain's black Maddonas), and Tonantzin/Cuatlicue, mother of Huitziloposchtli. Furthermore, this story was cooked up as a way to make christianity more acceptable for the unwilling indians. Proof, you ask? Well, let's see here:
-The VoG appeared to Juan Diego in the hill of Tepeyac. Tonantzin was worshiped in that very same hill.
-In the story of La Virgen, Fray Juan de Zumarraga, the alleged priest who demanded proof for the miracle and got the tilma in return, was not in Mexico at the time of the event. The story takes place in December 1531, yet he was in Spain since the summer of that year, being ordained Bishop, and didn't return to Mexico until the first months of 1532.
-Furthermore, there is not a single word in de Zumarraga's journals or any other documents of his that depicts the event. Hell if I was a part of a miracle I would deem it worthy of a dear diary entry, wouldn't you say?
-The ultimate trick? were it not for this syncretism, Christianity would had a long, hard battle converting indigens into their dogma.
But -I hear you argue- there's still the sacred tilma in display at the Basilica of Guadalupe, and despite being 500 years old, it shows little to no sign of decay, doesn't that count for it's miraculous nature?
Well, what people don't take into account is the fact that the tilma being shown in the Basilica is only about 100 years old, and it was made by more modern means. Yep, the damn rag is a fake. As taken from this source: http://www.vrg.us/luevano/Escritos/Fraudevir..htm (Sorry it's in spanish) and as covered in the mexican newspaper El Universal, in 1895, the Abad Don Jose Antonio Plancarte y Labastida, called Father Plancarte (I just call him asshole) replaced the heavily decayed, fungus eaten tilma (miracles aren't made to last, apparently) with a newer version of it. Here's the punch line. He was in charge of amplifying the whole Basilica and organizing the upcoming ceremony to crown the Virgen of Guadalupe as the queen of Mexico. It seems he was in a bit of a hurry coning people off their money for doing this and whatnot, cuz he forgot one little detail of the tilma: the "original" showed the VoG wearing a crown. The Plancarte version was crownless! (and she was to be crowned in the upcomming ceremony, for geezus sake!!!)
In the coverage of El Universal of December 3, 1895, Plancarte's comments about the crownless Virgen were --wait for it-- "the crown disappeared by a miracle", and MOST of the people bought it up!!!!!! Yep, we have some dumbass fucking idiots down here in Mexico.
So don't come here preaching this colorblind, religion without boundaries crap. You say the Virgin of Guadalupe? I say get the fuck out of here.
[Edit] Misspells and to add more
Lenore, The Cute Little Dead Girl. Twice as good as Jesus.
This is a bit off topic but have anyone noticed whos woice it is on the initial movie OP links to...
Khaaaaaaan!!!
"Everyone knows that God drives a Plymouth: "And He drove Adam And Eve from the Garden of Eden in His Fury."
And that Moses liked British cars: "The roar of Moses' Triumph was heard throughout the hills."
On the other hand, Jesus humbly drove a Honda but didn't brag about it, because in his own words: "I did not speak of my own Accord." "
Urhm. Well that would be rather retarded of us, wouldn't it? If we believed in god then why would we fight such a futile battle with the all-powerful creator of the universe? I firmly believed in god for the first 25 years of my life. Then things got hazy for me for a few years as I started to critically thing about things. Then...I no longer believed in god. Number of days angry at god? Zero.
So you were open minded enough as a catholic to watch a protestant religious program? wow. lol Real stretch there. Good job.
What version of a hippified catholic church do you attend? My workcenter has me (ex-baptist atheist), Dan (ex-bahai' atheist), Yurii (ex-mormon atheist), and Scott (ex-catholic atheist). I just checked with Scott. According to the catholic church all Jews, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, Protestants are doomed for hellfire eternal. I can understand if the humans in your church have modified their beliefs to make it seem more logical. However, just understand that is nothing but humans modifying their beliefs to alter their religion so they can cling to it for a few more years.
*sigh* Yes. That's it. I hate something. Dig for a reason why I no longer believe in god. Rationalize it away. It's troublesome for you to understand why I don't believe isn't it? I must "hate" something yes? That's why I don't believe.
No, Sierra. I don't hate. I just don't believe. Look, if I still believed in god I wouldn't be doing this. I wouldn't be a part of this forum. I'm not in a rebellion mode. I just don't believe. Try to find another reason why I don't believe, Freud.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci