Wow. Just wow. Morals certainly don't come from the Buybull otherwise cultures that never heard of it would have been quite evil. And what about the extremely immoral things in that asshat book such as executing people for being gay, changing their religion, disrespecting their parents, gathering sticks on Sunday (or is it Saturday?), making a certain hair tonic, etc. Or forcing a woman to marry her rapist - unless she didn't scream loud enough for people to hear, then she's executed , allowing slavery, genocide, etc. Morality comes from a combination of common sense, empathy and upbringing. Not a completely absurd and horrific fairy tale.

But you just admitted that the CoH was a religiously-informed code of moral laws just like the Bible! As far as I can see, it is you that is playing he-said-she-said. Why should we take Moses' word over Hammurabi?

Once upon a time there was a guy that was even older than God. The end.

My little story above deals with something before creation. Does that mean it predates the Bible?

Not if there actually were floods in ancient times. I'm guessing there were.

Morals are, by definition, a commonly accepted standard. So they are never a matter of purely personal preference. Can humans create common standards without the aid of God? I think you'd have to admit they can, unless you want to say that God made the rules of the NFL. So if morals are common standards and if humans can create common standards then I see no reason why humans couldn't create morals.

Of course, there is also the fact that every moral ever known was created by humans. Before you can argue this point, you will have to prove that something else exists which might have done the job. Let's see your evidence for God, champ.

Connor,  Whatever you wish for me to prove i can help you understand. But  expecting random clumps of things is not gonna work too well in a logical way.

As far as you being a catholic before, i can see part of the problem. I feel alot of catholicism is not biblical  and might turn people away. Like the homosexual , pedophile priest scandal issue. I have no problem with atheists trying to disable as you say christianity. As long as its fair, accurate and  lawful.

The truth is, most atheists would prefer christians to not respond or to simply go away. They would love freedom of speech to be denied to christians, thats why atheists often attack supposed Christians issues like God on the money ,or the pledge.

I don't usually like to play the quote game alot. But if you want to talk about Benjamin Franklin,In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Thomas Pain said: “ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

And Tommy jefferson said: “ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”   "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Nice to have you here Christopher.  Consider registering for an account so you don't have to wait for us to approve your comments in the anonymous poster crowd.

Brian, I can try and make an account, i did 2 time before and it was either deleted for some reason or never went through for whatever reason.

The idea that not having "in god we trust" on the money or "under god" in the pledge is typical of the 1984-esque thinking of Christards. You seem to feel persecuted when you are prevented from persecuting others. How would you feel if it said "one nation under allah" or "one nation where we are intelligent enough to not believe in a god." how about "in flying spaghetti monster we trust" or "in reason we trust" (which wouldn't even be biased!) "E Pluribus Unum" was a much better slogan until militant Christards in the 1950s decided to force their bullshit down everyone else's throat.

DEAR BELIEVER:

by Dan Barker

Dear Believer, — You asked me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful.
 

You expect me to believe Jesus was born of a virgin impregnated by a ghost? Do you believe all the crazy tales of ancient religions? Julius Caesar was reportedly born of a virgin; Roman historian Seutonius said Augustus bodily rose to heaven when he died; and Buddha was supposedly born speaking. You don't believe all that, do you? Why do you expect me to swallow the fables of Christianity?
I find it incredible that you ask me to believe that the earth was created in six literal days; women come from a man's rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush spoke human language; the entire world was flooded, covering the mountains to drown evil; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; language variations stem from the tower of Babel; Moses had a magic wand; the Nile turned to blood; a stick turned into a snake; witches, wizards, and sorcerers really exist; food rained from the sky for 40 years; people were cured by the sight of a brass serpent; the sun stood still to help Joshua win a battle, and it went backward for King Hezekiah; men survived unaided in a fiery furnace; a detached hand floated in the air and wrote on a wall; men followed a star which directed them to a particular house; Jesus walked on water unaided; fish and bread magically multiplied to feed the hungry; water instantly turned into wine; mental illness is caused by demons; a "devil" with wings exists who causes evil; people were healed by stepping into a pool agitated by angels; disembodied voiced spoke from the sky; Jesus vanished and later materialized from thin air; people were healed by Peter's shadow; angels broke people out of jail; a fiery lake of eternal torment awaits unbelievers under the earth ... while there is life-after-death in a city which is 1,500 miles cubed, with mansions and food, for Christians only.
If you believe these stories, then you are the one with the problem, not me. These myths violate natural law, contradict science, and fail to correspond with reality or logic. If you can't see that, then you can't separate truth from fantasy. It doesn't matter how many people accept delusions inflicted by "holy" men; a widely held lie is still a lie. If you are so gullible, then you are like the child who believes the older brother who says there is a monster in the hallway. But there is nothing to be afraid of; go turn on the light and look for yourself.
If Christianity were simply untrue I would not be too concerned. Santa is untrue, but it is a harmless myth which people outgrow. But Christianity, besides being false, is also abhorrent. It amazes me that you claim to love the god of the bible, a hateful, arrogant, sexist, cruel being who can't tolerate criticism. I would not want to live in the same neighborhood with such a creature!
The biblical god is a macho male warrior. Though he said "Thou shalt not kill," he ordered death for all opposition, wholesale drowning and mass exterminations; punishes offspring to the fourth generation (Ex. 20:5); ordered pregnant women and children to be ripped up (Hos. 13:16); demands animal and human blood to appease his angry vanity; is partial to one race of people; judges women to be inferior to men; is a sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers; created evil (Is. 45:7); discriminated against the handicapped (Lev. 21:18-23); ordered virgins to be kept as spoils of war (Num. 31:15-18, Deut. 21:11-14); spread dung on people's faces (Mal. 2:3); sent bears to devour 42 children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); punishes people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ez. 5:10). Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?
And Jesus is a chip off the old block. He said, "I and my father are one," and he upheld "every jot and tittle" of the Old Testament law. Mt. 5:18 He preached the same old judgment: vengeance and death, wrath and distress, hell and torture for all nonconformists. He believed in demons, angels and spirits. He never denounced the subjugation of slaves or women. Women were excluded as disciples and as guests at his heavenly table. Except for hell he introduced nothing new to ethics or philosophy. He was disrespectful of his mother and brothers; he said we should hate our parents and desert our families. Mt. 10:35-36, Lk. 14:26 (So much for "Christian family life.&quot He denounced anger, but was often angry himself. Mt. 5:22, Mk. 3:5 He called people "fools" (Mt. 23:17,19), "serpents," and "white sepulchers," though he warned that such language puts you in danger of hellfire. Mt. 5:22 He said "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword." Mt. 10:34 (So much for "Peace on Earth.&quot He irrationally cursed and withered a fig tree for being barren out of season. Mt. 21:19 He mandated burning unbelievers. Jn. 15:6 (The Church has complied with relish.) He stole a horse. Lk. 19:30-33 He told people to cut off hands, feet, eyes and sexual organs. Mt. 5:29-30, 19:12 You want me to accept Jesus, but I think I'll pick my own friend, thank you.
One of Jesus's many contradictions was saying good works should be seen, and not seen. Mt. 5:16, 6:1-4 One of his mistakes was saying that the mustard plant has the smallest seed. Mt. 13:31-32 The writers of Matthew and Luke could not even get his genealogy straight, contradicting the Old Testament, and giving Jesus two discrepant lines through Joseph, his non-father!
I also find Christianity to be morally repugnant. The concepts of original sin, depravity, substitutionary forgiveness, intolerance, eternal punishment, and humble worship are all beneath the dignity of intelligent human beings and conflict with the values of kindness and reason. They are barbaric ideas for primitive cultures cowering in fear and ignorance.
Finally, Christianity is harmful. More people have been killed in the name of a god than for any other reason. The Church has a shameful, bloody history of Crusades, Inquisitions, witch-burnings, heresy trials, American colonial intolerance, disrespect of indigenous traditions (such as American Indians), support of slavery, and oppression of women. Modern "fruits" of religion include the Jonestown massacre, the callous fraud of "faith healers," recent wars and ethnic cleansing, and fighting in Northern Ireland. Religion also poses a danger to mental health, damaging self-respect, personal responsibility, and clarity of thought.
Do you see why I do not respect the biblical message? It is an insulting bag of nonsense. You have every right to torment yourself with such insanity — but leave me out of it. I have better things to do with my life.

I sent you an email on how to access your account.

Wow , Christopher Nelson , you really care , that is good , the world is indeed sick ,

  You have found a place of healing, the blessed RRS , Jesus would love this place .....  geezz, all the ancient people would .... Stick around and so will you.

Atheists care and are angry too at the sick world ..... You care too, right ?  What IS the enemy  ???

  I will make you a deal ... You heal the Atheists and I will heal the Religious, then there will be no more of this sickness of GOD separation .... and no need evermore for Atheists and Theists. 

You are god too, as the Christ is in you too, Right ??? This NOW is GOD, we are ONE, said a jesus !

   ..... "Divided we fall" .....

CANNED HEAT - Let's Work Together (1970)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwVwQVtPZRw

     Argument from Morality.

Premises: It is impossible to be moral without god, the bible is the ultimate source of morality.

Problem: This is very insulting to the atheist, and completely baseless. First you have to accept the bible is the source of morality. There is no reason to believe anything in it is true, and do you really want to live by a book that has this:

Killing innocent babies-Exodus 12:29

You must kill your child if they disobey you-Exodus 21:15

Beat your slave, just make sure he doesn’t die! Exodus 21:20-21

They complete destruction of peoples, including infants, women, and animals. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

Giving your daughter away to her cousin in payment for his killing someone. Joshua 15:16-17

Condones child sacrifice. Judges 11:29-40

Sell your clothes to buy swords. Luke 22:36

Less than 1% of America’s prison population is atheist. (http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html ) Even if those numbers are skewed, there are still a lot more christians than atheists in prison. Obviously, there are a lot more christians than atheists in every facet of American life, but should there be any in prison in the first place if they have the moral high ground?

The buckle of the Bible Belt has extremely high levels of teen pregnancy, (http://www.physorg.com/news104658683.html )violence,( Louisiana has the highest churchgoing rate in the country, but its murder rate is more than twice the national average) and religious intolerance . Why if christians are so much better?

Your satirical attempt at new names shows irritation and anger. It is filled with generalizations and half-truths. I have not seen the attitude you describe except in a few cases. The same can be said of religious groups. There are the Pat Robertson's or Ted Haggerty's who are extremists and hateful possibly hypocritical as well.

As to your list:

1)We don't hate Christians only the fact they waste their lives on fantasies. I'd like to lead you all away from your wasted lives just like Christians wish to lead non-believers to Jesus. It's no different.

2)Condescending seems to be a 2 way thing sometimes, it results from exasperation and anger it seems.

3)As to knowing more but not. I don't even know all the questions how could I know the answers? Do you?

4)False science is practiced by only a few of the members who still practice alchemy and bleeding to cure disease. As to evolution being a false science, that is an area for a very long discussion.

5)Got God so we are above you. Unfair comment. I have a niece that is a missionary. A friend who is a nationally known evangelical singer. Another friend who is the director of a religious ministry. We have interesting discussions. No one has plans to convert or deconvert. No one holds belief or disbelief over the other.

6)Ban the Bible. Why? I have 6 copies some with my name embossed and CD versions too. I may think it belongs in Sci-Fi & Fantasy in the library, but banned no. There is interesting writing in it. It contributes to ancient history and knowledge at minimum. Though not accurate it helps to understand the culture of the period.

7)The Founding Fathers. They had conflicted views at times on religion. Admittedly they made both religious and non-religious statements and can be considered both ways. Perhaps that is why religion was not part of the Constitution.

8)Freedom of Religion, constitutional right to attack, and making Christianity illegal. I'm one of those libertarians you heard about on this site. I support your right to believe and say whatever you'd like. Beliefs that get discredited go away on their own, time will tell. Tolerance works both ways. It is irritating to have God put in my face but I understand I'm a minority. I shouldn't have to take an oath including a mythical character in it in my view. In my last few tours of jury duty, the swearing to God were eliminated. That's a little progress. Money should have something else on it similar to "Don't Tread on Me". How about "Many people United".

9)Sin, God is dead etc. I don't take that position. I don't know if he was ever real or not. Sin requires the god.  I could really care what you think as long as it doesn't end up as a law where you impose your beliefs on me. As a libertarian I do not believe in governmental interference in personal lives. If you'd like to commit suicide, it's your life feel free. Barry Goldwater was a good example of a conservative Republican that understood keeping God and the government separate. As Jesus pointed out God is the judge not you.

10)Most of the rest of your satire is from anger and requires no comment.

In your other comments you suggest that atheists wish for Christians to simply go away or keep quiet.  That's hardly the case as I said above. Christians are practicing discrimination by insisting the government should keep God on the money, the pledge or require it in oaths. This occurred with blacks and women in the past and it is no different here. Most Christians came to America to escape religious persecution. You have no right to persecute others that don't believe as you do including Muslims. As an American you have a duty to protect the rights of all citizens to retain or hold views or beliefs that may be divergent from yours. You consider Islam to be a false religion and I consider all of them to be based on mythology and legends. However I will fight for you to have the right to believe that which you do. Will you do that for me or the Muslim?

Erasing thousands of years of religious error is caring godly work , too bad we can't be just celebrating ......

How about the "we just kicked the crap out of your theistic arguments" response squad?

Wait!  I have one!

Christopher Nelson isn't worth a response squad.

Seriously, why is anyone actually responding to this moron?  Here we have a person typically incapable of writing anything accurate at all.  This is a person who believes that the bible denotes a history of the universe from creation until about two thousand years ago.  This is a person who believes that the accounts of the bible are wholly true. 

Christopher even wrote, 'And as far as the flood, these acient accounts are not of some flood here and there. But of a global flood.'

I think this marks him off my list of people worth responding to.  It's getting wholly annoying to argue with people who wilfully believe that the creation of the universe coincided with the domestication of the dog (thanks Todangst) and that their absolutely ignorant and self centred view of the world must necessarily be correct. 

I'm really hoping that soon the people who believe the bible was originally penned in English start showing up.  Those are people I could laugh at and have fun arguing with.  It is no fun arguing with people like Christopher who just play at being ignorant morons.  How does one on one hand enjoy the amenities of modern life and on the other hand believe in the absolute authority of the bible?  I'm beginning to think that this type of person must run rampant in the United States.  Does it take a lot of effort for a person to ignore the world around them or is this ignorance effortless or, as it's been called, bliss?

Edit: Umm... /rant

I know of no atheist morals that atheist founded on their own.  

David Hume, Immanuel Kant, and Charles Darwin wrote extensively about morality. Hume and Kant were atheists. Darwin was agnostic.

The Historical Buddha too, definitely not a Christian and probably never read the Bible, was quite a moral force of personality during his time.