The "Freethinking" Atheist
The term "freethinking" presupposes a belief in "free will." However, in the deterministic worldview of atheistic materialism, there is no free will. In other words, every thought or belief that an atheist has or entertains was completely predetermined and could not have been otherwise. This hardly constitutes the idea of freethinking.
The bottom line is that if there is no free will, then there is no freethinking. Moreover, the term "freethinking atheist" is actually an oxymoron. That being said, I will kindly ask the atheists on this forum to refrain from describing themselves as freethinkers. Intellectually honesty demands this.
Thank you.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
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No, this is not the same thing you have in mind. You are not arguing for a different concept of causality but for deterministic, linear causality(i.e. for each event there must be a cause and that all causal relations must follow a temporal sequence.) If you are foregoing the "arrow of time," then you are opening a whole new set of problems with major metaphysical implications.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
Unfortunately, this may very well be true in some cases, as humans we do tend to project human characteristics onto inanimate objects from time to time. However, I don't think it's as black and white as the statement above suggest since the details (as always) are going to vary from person to person, and, situation to situation.
Not quite. Anger can be directed inwardly regarding circumstance; for that matter, it can be directed outwardly regarding circumstance.
No.
Doesn't apply to me.....
As through a glass darkly you seek yourself,
But the light grows weak while under Yggdrasil. --clutch
Agreed.
I'll define the basic terms in the philosophical discussion of free will.
compatibilism = the view that "free will" is compatible with determinism.
incompatibilism = the view that "free will" is incompatible with determinism.
liberterianism = the view that "free will" is incompatible with determinism with the implication that given the same situation and circumstances an agent could have chosen otherwise.
The conventional understanding of free will is libertarianism. Most individuals actually believe they could have chosen otherwise (this is why they have regrets and experience guilt). The atheist is obligated by his philosophical commitment to materialism to deny libertarianism.
Incidentally, there are forms of theological determinism (e.g. Calvinsim).
I disagree. Just because atheists have not reflected on the intricacies of this does not mean it is meaningless. It just means they haven't thought through the implications of their worldview. And I am here to point some of these things out.
I know what atheists mean when they identify themselves as freethinkers. However, I am here to point out that their worldview does not actually permit themselves to classify themselves literally as "free thinkers."
The truth of the matter is that determinism actually implies pantheism, not atheism. Why? Because all intentional acts must be explained in terms of deterministic, physical causation. Therefore, logic dictactes that either infinite causality is expressing intelligence (because all events are determined by infinite causality) or else there is no intelligence in the world. To argue the latter presupposes intelligence; therefore, infinite causality must be intelligent (this is pantheism).
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
Kind caring wise Paisley. I'm quit positive you are not understanding the "awe" of the atheist, .... the "awe" you also share. This thread is largely a linguistic communication problem. Isn't it ???
The "materialist" recognizes the complexity of consciousness and that it may have a unique place in the E/M cosmos, of undetectable dimensions, as we now call them, that QM suggests.
Thing is , ALL is connected, All is ONE .... Why freak on it?, a Buddha would ask ....
How would you preach your message Paisley ? What is your point AGAIN ????
Atheism Books.
To begin with, in my OP of this thread, I did not argue for or against free will. I simply argued that there can be no "free thinkers" without free will.
Having said that, and assuming that determinism is valid, then I basically agree with items 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, (not 8 ), 9, 10, and 11.
I am not saying I necessarily disagree with this statement. I am simply not sure what you are saying here. "Multiple realities" are all ours? What does this mean?
Items 12 and 13 are not really relevant to this thread. Be that as it may, I would agree with 12. I do not agree with 13. Number 13 is actually contradictory. If determinism is true, then there are no random events.
If quantum indeterminacy is true, then science has evidence that physical events are occurring without physical cause. Atheistic materialism is incapable of accounting for uncaused events. (Actually, uncaused events invalidates materialism.) Also, there is scientific evidence that all mass/energy reduces to a quantum vacuum (essentially nothing). That virtual particles are popping in and out of existence smacks of creation ex nihilo. What do you think?
I am not here to argue the "Christian God." That being said, determinism is not necessarily incompatible with certain forms of Christianity (e.g. it is my understanding that Calvinism teaches "compatibilism" ).
Also, pantheism is compatible with determinism.
There is evidence for free will. It's called "first-person experience." And the fact that you expressed "hope that you may change your path" leads me to believe that you have this first-person experience too. Free will may will be illusory but the onus is upon you to dispel the myth by providing evidence that it does not exist.
Forgetting the fact that you are blithley making unsupported assertions (you didn't cite a source). This doesn't prove anything.
If determinism is true, then there is no separate "you" and "me." The only thing exercising intelligence is what you call the "causal chain." That the entire natural process exercises intelligence implies pantheism, not atheism. Remember, deterministic materialism implies that eveything that arises in the world is the result of the natural process playing itself out. IOW, naturual causation is responsible for the development of planes, trains, and automobiles. Moreover, determinisim actually implies some kind of anthropic principle because the fact that we are here discussing this matter could not have been otherwise.
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
SEXY ATHEISM can = PANTHEISM , PANENTHEISM , BUDDHISM !
Atheism Books.
Would you rather that I sing "I am the Walrus" like you?
http://www.metrolyrics.com/i-am-the-walrus-lyrics-beatles.html
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
Yeah , I like it !
WE ARE ONE !
The Beatles - I Am The Walrus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqOKvonLrH8
Atheism Books.
Based on your post, it doesn't appear that you know the definition of "ad hominem."
"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead
Paisley brother , let's have a beautiful song contest !!!
Atheism Books.
ARABS (( to BACH ))
Well, regarding the contest, the up-loaders in Youtube are mostly young. BUT this I found. ((( My CD collection is much sweeter. )))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frnQVmaTjds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3wef_F_xvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwGPCidA6tk
The Real Arabs !! , 3 min video , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tCLjFwEOWs
.... some thoughts, from California,
Looking at the the mideast today reminds me of our own European history. The separation of church/state and the Bill of Rights was a huge lucky achievement. The Thomas Jeffersons of the mideast are being silenced. The TV / Radio is of course also muted.
I am ashamed of our own media today, especially TV, that presents a biased degrading image of the muslim world. It is brainwash .... and it's all over the world .....
STOP DIVISION, no more "Theisms" , FIRST Say we are ONE ....
Atheism Books.
Not at all. It was neither "appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect" (definition 1 from Webster), nor "marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made" (definition 2). In fact, I specifically avoided attacking your character. You will note, as I pointed out before, that I referred to perceptions others might hold about your character, and then opined that it might be due to a condition quite outside your control. Neither of these is an attack on your character (both, in fact, quite specifically leave the matter of your actual character completely out of the equation, and make no reference to it), and neither appeals to feelings or prejudices. Rather, I appealed to your understanding that your points are rendered less effective by the prejudices of others, an understanding you demonstrated being capable of having in the other thread, as I indicated.
You've missed the obvious (and I would say likely most often accurate) scenario:
4) You feel threatened by the situation and the sudden, surprising sensation of pain, and your reptile brain spins up the 'fight' reaction in response to the unknown. Now, once you're angry, and realize what's happened, this can easily transition into (2), but that's really more of a 'I have this anger, now what do I *do* with it?' reaction from the higher brain, as a mechanism for dealing with the physical stress that results from the chemical/hormonal component of the reptile brain's immediate reaction. The actual threat perceived is exactly not that: perceived. The perception of 'threat' comes from the very unexpected nature of the event, and the triggered emotional and chemical/hormonal response is a response to unknown danger, albeit a danger the reptile brain assesses as 'low risk', or we'd react by fleeing from the table.
Which, I admit, would be damned funny to see.
Once more, I can only interact with the reality I perceive. If I invest those perceptions with no trust or confidence, then there is no belief engendered by taking a position of 'If what I perceive is real, then I perceive myself to hold this opinion. However, I cannot find cause to actively assert that either my perception of reality, or my perception of my own opinions, are true. I may be wrong.'
We've also covered that I tend to not complicate my style of prose by incorporating the full disclaimer into every statement, especially given that all of these statements are, or seem to be, made within the context of the perceptions of reality that I cannot place any confidence, trust, or faith in.
Really, Paisley, I accept that you're going to keep trying this tactic, but I would have to say it seems likely that it's going to continue to not be terribly effective.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Heal the God of Abraham DIVIDERS , they are our lost brothers and sisters .... LOST in the AWE .....
Atheism Books.
Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry to hear about your job--I've been there.
However, those random events may or may not have an impact on the macro world: to clarify.
A Cue ball is hit and heads towards the 8 ball. It may hit a little tuft of felt, or a wind may marginally knock it, but all things can be explained using Newtonian Physics as it knock the 8 Ball into the pocket.
Now, the fact that, at the Quantum level, there is a dizzying fireworks display of random and non-random events has made no difference to the trajectory of the billiard balls.
Likewise, our chemicals are not affected by QM. That is, the protein in our body stays protein, unless it intracts - predictabley - with something that breaks-down protein.
QT doesn't suggest that the way our bodies interact with the macro world are changed by events in the Quantum world - not appreciatively. And here's the thing - even if they did affect our decisions, or life in some way, it would still be Deterministic. Something is acting on US and we react to IT.
For example, it would be like you flipping a coin for every decision you make: Are you excersizing Free Will because you are reacting to the random flip of the coin? No.
These are discoveries made by scientists and they were discovered because the math and evidence has led them to it. They aren't being created ex nihlio: there is an energy field and that field's total value is 0.
This may be happening without physical cause (if I understand you to mean Matter), but Matter & Energy are two things that are interlinked. Matter IS Energy. Remember: E=mc2?
I would turn the particles popping into existence back to you: if this is so common, why do you feel the Big Bang needs some intelligence to start it? And, if so, why is this same "being" doing it continuously? Maybe god is just a mindless lighter that keeps flicking for eternity - that like we eat and naturally produce crap, god naturally produces particles ?
I think you vastly misunderstand atheism, Materialism and Determinism. Would you care to read about them?
It's in reaction to something - not Willed ex nihilio from your mind.
Again, someone else came up with the term "Free Will" let them prove it exists. Why would you ask me to disprove a negative? i thought we have graduated past this.
I don't doubt that there is the existence of Will, but there is no reason to think it is Free. We live in a universe in which things affect each other.
I will return - if it is what the universe determines....
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov