i believe the christian answer is that:

1. you could die at any time - perhaps you are planning to apologize tomorrow for screwing that married woman today but a bus is going to flatten you like a pancake on the way home.

2. god knows if you're *really* sorry.

3. is purgatory still around?  if so, yeah... the only thing that would suck worse than worshiping some god for eternity would be being on your hards and knees begging to go there.  at least when you're in heaven you can fly.  i think?

For more detail see here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

This is a concession, then, that ethics and morality were in existence before any stone tablet was allegedly passed to Moses?

What about behaviors that cannot be 'changed' by normal means? Like lusting after a woman? Unless I take measures to chemically retard my sex drive, I'll always lust after women.

We can't 'repent' in the way you're describing for committing some of the sins the Bible forbids. So is everyone going to Hell?

This terrified me as a christian.I was convinced that if I should happen to die while I had unrepeneted for sins, I would be getting a one way ticket to hell. However,many christian denominations believe in 'once saved,always saved' This way, no matter what you do,and wether you ever repent, you get to heaven.

In this way you could live a exceptionally 'sinful' life, never repent,and still get the reward.Now how's that for christian morality?

I always wondered if I was sorry enough or if god knew deeeep down I wasn't really.

can't help, my upbringing/education didn't believe purgatory.

Another thing I'd like to add to the list is the 'why don't you just always sin and ask forgiveness'? thing. We asked this at school so I'll share their wisdom:

God has limits.If you continue to sin and not truely be repentful, a time will eventually come where his patience with you will run out, and he will not forgive you. So when you sin and repent, you must make a real effort not to do it again. If you do try not to,but mess up and do sin, god will know you were at least trying not to, and forgive you again

Though that was probably just a scare tactic to get the kids to stop sinning.

I think that the Christian concept of sin springs from the realization that there is something intrinsically wrong with humanity.  Few people will deny that history demonstrates that man is capable of heinous evil.  Sin, then consists not only of offenses agianst God, but also of offenses against the dignity of other humans.  That this notion pre-dated Moses id undoubtedly true, but human nature being what it is, these "laws" required codification so that the old "Nobody told me it was wrong" excuse wouldn't operate.

I think that the concept of "once saved, always saved" is quite obviously error.  Repentance must be accompanied by a firm purpose of amendment.  Being sorry for an offense, whether against God, the state, or another human individual does no good in and of itself if the offender keeps exhibiting the same offensive behavior but simply apologizes for each transgression.  Even humans expect offenders to mdify their behavior for an apology to be effective.  Further, where possible, one must try to set things upset by their actions to rights once more.

To clarify a point made in a previous point by pauljohntheskpetic, venial sins are sins which do not turn us totally away from God, while mortal sins are those by which we place our ultimate end in some creature to the extent that we turn from God.  Those sins, the mortal ones, are those which will send us to Hell.  Both types of sin can be forgiven by sacramnetal confession, or by the sinner realizing true contrition for those sins; true contrition being repentance for those sins out of true sorrow for having offended God, rather than out of fear of punishment.  Since most folks have a genuine attchment to certain sins, that is, they are predisposed towards certain acts by nature of their personality, or by habit, true contrition is difficult to achieve.

I would like to know this also. The implication here is that sin and all that is attached to its inference is through and through a matter of choice whereas, from Christianity we get some bastard blend of choice/theological determinism to explain sin instead -for example: power to choose sin, no power to choose otherwise. Without power to choose otherwise how can one be accountable? It makes no sense, actually almost no christian dogma makes sense, but this makes probably the least sense.

By and large Christian dogma says sin is thrust upon you by Adam and taken from you by Jesus, but in the end it was your choice. Unless a Christian can properly describe a mechanism by which someone else's choices are ultimately your own, they are up the creek using a dead cat for a paddle and there is no reason to accept anything else that is said.

Don't you mean "sinful and immoral"?

I'm sure it is commonly accepted, but that doesn't explain the gaping holes in what's important to God. On the one hand it seems of utmost import to God that you get into heaven, hence the offer of deathbed forgiveness regardless of the sin, but if that's so why earth and why do you need forgiveness for what you've done on earth if earth was of no consequence anyway. One then must say that god cares about what happens on earth and it is of consequence, so then how can you be forgiven for visiting atrocity on it just as easily as anyone who never did?

So where does earth figure in all of god's thinking, really, does he care or not care? If he doesn't care then there should be no need for repentance, and if he does care then there should be no chance of repentance.

Greetings and hello to you Kevin,

The people you are mad at are mere "sheeple" with no mindset of their own beyond what their church allows.  They have no free will, no free thought, and anything that conflicts with that is buried under their fear of an irrational retribution.  To put it bluntly, we might as well go in circles now and talk about how their irrationality is irrational.  It just is the way it is. 

Personally, they can go fuck themselves and die in a fire.  Also, I hate how any view of belief in God is automatically aligned with some random fucktard idiot's views.  I'll keep to myself instead of internalizing that God is some idiot in the sky who decided that logic is for the hell-bound.

Anyways, I hope their idiocy strengthens some of your views (like that we evolved from apes, perhaps? lol.) and opens your mind to further become a better individual.  I don't think you're gonna get too much further than "Irrationality is irrational" on this issue, though.

this isn't an explanation, it's an excuse. Pardon God for acting in contradiction. It doesn't explain why the responsibility for the capricious folly of our earthly existence falls to us and it doesn't explain how capitulation to some equally fanciful ritualistic behaviour rectifies the contradiction.

Okay, so then repentance = the {re}- affirmation of accord with God's values then?

Far be it from God to act contrary again. But anyhow, we're still not getting to any actual dynamic between Man and God with this. I take it to be that sin is Y and salvation is X, but these are both egocentric hedonistic values, there's no difference between them ultimately. If there's no difference then there's no sense to the mechanism, according with God's values changes nothing.

I suppose that you have added this qualification to avoid my retort above, but your qualification merely confirms it. The Salvation model echoes the Sin model, the accord is with what one desires, not God. In having stated this we can simply remove God, salvation and repentance and insert 'ascertainment' in place of them without changing the meaning. One ascertains their afterlife through the purest choice of what they desire to do with it, God is just a bystander.

Well hell and torment can still be there, but God doesn't throw anything into it.

This again bypasses the object of giving a mechanism by which calling on Jesus name gets one into heaven.

Just to be clear, I'm not meaning to say that there is no reason to justify forgiveness of sin by God, (though I understand why you might have got that from my last post) I'm not playing the jealous brother here, my question is as to how the son knocking on the door to be let in is to be separated from the once son knocking on the door to be told he is a stranger simply by virtue of the infamous 'in the name of christ' incantation during one's lifetime. We're not talking about just any old generic 'I'm genuinely sorry I did that' here, this is about the special sorry, the 'pour your holy spirit upon me I let jesus into my heart!' sorry. To what end does this incantation make the ultimate difference between the brothers? What are the tangible referents, in terms of earth life, to these ritual sayings.

Since they decided to get rid of Limbo, I'm not sure where they put those kids.

nope. life here on earth is the test of your faith.

apparently god would know this... you know those big words for all powerful and all knowing.  i brought up the part about god knowing the "truth"  though to address your question on why a christian could not just give lip service to the 'i'm sorry' line.

you've been forgiven but you haven't done your penance yet.  purgatory is a place to do that.

the original sin was a sin of death that was so great adam passed his action down to his descendants.  while it could be seen as paying a tab for a meal we never received, it could also be argued that this is similar to hereditary conditions. 

i'm way to good at this theist stuff.  it's starting to scare me.

I think it would be a sin or at least a crying shame if someone drank my last beer.

I forgot this, SEX, DRUGS, & ROCK'N'ROLL!!

      Dear Eloise, I am writing to say     I  heard that a funny thing happen this thread.     I heard your a theist     But just not today, I read your five post and they     just seam to say,     The post on this thread seam to say "get the theist label off your name and tell it like it is."  Join us non-believers, you mostly have,   and tell everyone.

    I believe I have mentioned this before.

LOL, yeah you have mentioned it before Jeffrick, I've said from the start that I have far more affinity for the atheist position than I have for popular theism, but I do have a god belief and hence I fit the definition behind the label. You could probably say that I am theist more in a technical than colloquial sense, and, to coin one of the RRS's most clever standard arguments, I am an atheist in respect to many popular conceptions of god.

About cool Eloise, I've asked these same questions, and said give her the Pantheism  badge she wants.  But it is helpful that all "theists" feel welcome here, and so again thanks for putting up with that tag,  pretty kind smart teacher Eloise.     

  ( hot for teacher!  ) 

Yeah wise Louis.

I try to turn religious jargon againt religion. I say "salvation" is abandoning all religion of idol worship and separation. What a crime against story Jesus simple message of All is ONE, xainity is. Religion is "sin", meaning wrong. What a sinful thing it is to brainwash children into any of the 3 dogmas of God of Abraham religions.

   All of the religious dogma folks indeed need "repent".  Fuck you religious "hypocrites", said boldly, a wise bad ass story Jesus.

Heaven is NOW, religion is HELL ....((( echo's of a "Jesus",  yin yang said another .... 

Actually, Kevin, most Christian denominations stray quite far from the Bible on the matter of sin, hell, etc.

Here's how it boils down:

A)God set down 10 basic guidelines on stone tablets for Moses. These consisted of 3 'Hey! I am your boss!' and 7 'Don't screw with one another' guidelines. The 7, more likely than not, were considered common-sense, but also helped codify the Jewish system of property inheritance.

Often, these Commandments are lazily/sloppily translated.

Examples:

"Thou Shalt Not Kill". No, actually, it's 'You will not murder'. Difference? Well, killing in self-defense is allowed, as is killing in military campaigns, or defending someone else, etc etc. With no distinction for 'manslaughter', this pretty much puts that commandment about on par with our current concept of when killing is or isn't allowed.

"Thou Shalt Not Covet" (wife/goods). THIS DOES NOT MEAN LUST. What does it mean? Do not conspire to take your neighbor's property or his wife; ie: these are prohibitions against actively making plans to do these things. The wife, especially, since children inherit from the father, but the only irrefutable parentage is the mother.

Note: Adultery's a separate one because its intent is 'don't step out on YOUR spouse'.

"Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against They Neighbor" is often interpreted as "Thou Shalt Not Lie". But it's not. It's actually a far, far simpler concept. See, "lies" includes fiction, such as parables, etc. Nobody's gonna tell you 'only say what is literally true. use no fictional examples'. Instead, the prohibition is against leveling false accusations, or lying to support an accusation. False WITNESS. It's bad, mmkay?

B)Hell.

HAH.

There is no "Hell". The Bible never talks of Hell. Hell doesn't exist. For that matter, everyone who's died? IS DEAD. Not kicking it in heaven. The saints can't do squat to help out. Why? THEY'RE JUST DEAD. According to the Bible, even!

See, Revelations tells us that when the world faces the final Judgment, THEN all the dead will arise and be given new bodies. Before that? THEY'RE JUST DEAD. Jesus kept referring to it as 'asleep', not 'chillax'in with the Big Dog'.

Anyway, as far as Hell goes? Same deal: It ain't there. When the Judgment comes, then 'The Beast' (an entity separate from and different than 'the Serpent' and/or 'Satan') gets tossed into Gehenna, "the fire that burns for an age", along with all those Judged unworthy. The Fire lasts 1,000 years, at which time they're annihilated. Seems kinda cruel to me, but there you go. No eternal torment.

Meanwhile, the faithful and those judged worthy, get to live in a perfect world (the 'New Jerusalem', 'a new heaven and a new Earth' thing. Just a reset of Earth to the un-tainted template.) without death, which was, after all, not in the original model.

C)Sin.

HAH more!

Remember the old line 'the wages of sin... is death'? That's it. That's ALL THERE IS TO IT.

You fuck up, you displease God, who is all-powerful and without whom, your ass would still be in Egypt because your ancestors never woulda got out (note: from the perspective of biblical authors), you know what it gets you? DEAD. Somehow, eventually, God decides 'enough', and smites you dead. No hell until Judgment. You's just DEAD, homeslice.

The nature of 'sin'?

Real simple: Obedience and submission before the Will of God is virtuous. All else is sin.

And btw...

Sin and 'The Judgment'? NOT. A. FACTOR.

Check it: in the Gospels, Christ uses the parable of the sheep and the goats to warn people that they'll be judged based no on the beliefs they profess, but on the things they do.

Or, to misquote Batman Begins: It's not who they are inside, but what they do that defines them.

Paul, significantly, directly contradicts this, claiming that by faith alone will folks be saved. But the Gospels explicitly say the very opposite. And more, so does Revelations, where the Goats & the Sheep is repeated with the fate of all those who ever lived: Did you do good for others? Good. If not, light 'em up!

Note that 'martyrs' for the faith are given a free pass, and actually help out with the role of jury here... but that's NOT a matter of 'faith' saving them; again, it's Works: They were willing to die to help others hear the words of the Messiah.

So, in the end, it's not one system, it's two that are often confused and tangled around one another:

First System:

Don't be a deusch, or eventually God will notice and KILL your ass.

Second System:

When the end of the world comes, the folks who did get dead will all get up and get dressed. God will then call everyone to be Judged on how well they put the needs of others ahead of their own. If you showed at least minimal concern for others, everything's fine. If, on the other hand, you have more consistently ignored suffering than tried to help alleviate it... it's 1,000 years of pain and torment, possibly a kind of karmic restitution for the pain and suffering you *could* have prevented during your life, and then BOOM, you're gone again.

But the two sets of behavior, though overlapping in massive broad-strokes principle, aren't equivalent.

I think there are some misconceptions about sin floating around out there. I dont think I've heard anything in this post that I agree with yet. You dont have to believe that the fall of Adam is real to understand sin.  Sin is best defined as selfishness that causes harm to yourself or others.  If you dont consider it to be a "whammy" that is placed on man from the fall, its easier to believe in.  I think that is the best way they had to describe it back then - "original sin. "

To answer a major misconception about christianity, you dont get to do whatever you want in life and then say your sorry at the end to get a pass into heaven. I admit when you put it all together, it appears that way. In reality, everything you do good or bad counts for all eternity. In short, you go to heaven or hell based on who you trust, but what its like when you get there is based on what youve done in your life.  To add to that, God does not throw people in hell just because they didnt trust him. Nobody trusts him. Its unnatural. All he asks is that people seek to do whats right. If they do, eventually they will come to believe.

So true repentance like true faith is impossible without God. Nobody wants to repent for the right reasons totally. We all are just sorry for getting caught most of the time. Real repentance leads to change in action. The more you choose to do wrong, the more the conscience is seared, and the less likely you will be to "want to want" to repent. The more you choose to do right, the more acute your conscience gets, the more likely you are to want to want to repent. At some point, God completes the act of repentance for you, and you will have faith.

Oh? And where did you come by this 'best' definition, pray tell?

I presume you heard it from a true Scotsman?

Yeah, it does. Funny about that, eh? I mean, the religion preaches that Jesus will forgive you for anything you do, all you have to do is ask. Right?

So it seems to me that it 'appears' that way, because, well, that's the way it's sold to people. But let's hear out your apologetics anyway...

He's makin' a list, he's checkin' it twice...

So I will go to Heaven or Hell 'based on who I trust' (?), but the characteristics of Heaven or Hell change based on what I've done? How bizarre. Heaven and Hell are basically in quantum states then, shifting between 'paradise' and 'eternal pit of damnation and suffering' based on what the last few people to come in did with their lives?

You also allude that every single good person (all the people who seek to do what's right) will eventually become Christian. Are you saying, then, that there's not a single atheist who has sought to do good?

Aye. And a true Scotsman never puts sugar in their porridge.

Are you kidding? People are genuinely sorry all the time! We're programmed to be genuinely sory / guilty when we do bad stuff. 'Your conscience is seared'? Well, you're obviously trying to get away with conflating 'conscience' and 'soul' (not this time. Nice try, though) - and you cannot use elements of your own absurd mythology to support other elements of itself. That's called 'circular reasoning'. I read the last part as saying, 'The more you cave-in to the scare stories of Christianity, the more real they become to you, and eventually you're just all too happy to let the church lead around on a leash.' 

So the Bible isn't literal (and I'm certainly with you on that)... but Heaven is literal, and Hell is literal, and God is a literal being that exists? How odd. And what criteria did you use to seperate the mythical stuff from the factual stuff, pray tell?

So, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate with you:

Let's say Adolf actually was, in the end, genuinely sorry for all his misgivings. If the last mortal thing he did before shooting himself was to break down in tears and tell Jesus with all sincerity for all his wrongs, and that he'd undo it all if he could, would that give him a pass into eternal paradise?