God cannot use methods

Velocity Eleven
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God cannot use methods

Suppose that God exists and that he's all powerful...

If this is true then there ia no "how" or "why" as to why does certain things as he could cause the effect without having to take action (in other words the laws of causality dont apply to him)

So first of all, why would he "do"anything? (as in take action such as the global flood when he could just cause the effects)

Also by answering this question you are admitting that the rules of causally do apply to him and therefore cannot be omnipotent

Is there a name for this type of logic I just mentioned?


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Quote:Is there a name for

Quote:

Is there a name for this type of logic I just mentioned?

Yes. Using your brain. You've pointed out the obvious internal contradiction between the notion that there exists some Other-being which has is supposedly outside the influence of causal process (because supposed being is responsible for the existence of said process and the underlying structures such as time) and the very idea that this being has causal powers at all, and hence, that it can influence the world around us at all, or indeed, do anything or perform any action, or be anything other than an inert nothingness. As a side note, isn't it bizarre that the same people who will cheerily tell you that they worship an entity which is outside space and time, is utterly inconceivable to human cognizance, is so anthropomorphic in their tastes and nature that they care about your baseball team and what you do while naked?

Of course, you might claim that this supposed being is ineffable and these sorts of conceptual problems about its causal powers do not apply, but then you would be left with a mystery of your own devising, and as such, you would be negating your ability to make knowledge claims about this entity, which in turn would mean you are begging the question by asserting that the being is beyond our conception in the first place...

Funny, I've pointed out the same thing as you did and never recieved a response.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:Quote:Is

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

Is there a name for this type of logic I just mentioned?

Yes. Using your brain.

Beat me to it.

deludedgod wrote:
Funny, I've pointed out the same thing as you did and never recieved a response.

I think we've all written one of these "ridiculousness of omni-whatever" posts. For yours (which I read) my reaction was to silently nod my head. I'm pretty sure you got a lot of that. There's something about the omnipotence problem that seems to cause immediate solidarity among rational people. No surprise, really.

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Velocity Eleven

Velocity Eleven wrote:
Suppose that God exists and that he's all powerful... If this is true then there ia no "how" or "why" as to why does certain things as he could cause the effect without having to take action (in other words the laws of causality dont apply to him) So first of all, why would he "do"anything? (as in take action such as the global flood when he could just cause the effects) Also by answering this question you are admitting that the rules of causally do apply to him and therefore cannot be omnipotent Is there a name for this type of logic I just mentioned?

 


Often times in religion God isn't all power.  He is fooled by a devil and has to fight a war, or he doesn't notice something, or he has a character flaw, or he changes his mind, et cetera....
But then the people who made him up, or the ancestors, want their God to be all powerful and trustable and shit.
So, like the religious nuts they are, they just say he is and wala.
Then they can explain that the old text was just metaphors or something.

You have to understand God is whatever they want him (or her) to be, whenever they want him to be it.

Is there a type of logic to your line of thinking?  Um, no.

Listen, all you need to know is that there is LOGIC, and then there is SHIT.
There are things that make sense, and then there is crap.
That's it.

If someone give a name to a type of logic they are either:
A.) Categorizing logic for easier reference (although this often makes things needlessly confusing).
or...
B.) They are trying to the masses to accept some bullshit as "logical" by literally trying to redifine the word "logic" by adding to it what they want.


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What I mean is "is there a

What I mean is "is there a name for this fallacy I mentioned?"


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Velocity Eleven wrote:What I

Velocity Eleven wrote:
What I mean is "is there a name for this fallacy I mentioned?"

 


Ohh, good.  Cause like I said, "types of logic" are bullshit.  Lol.

Um, lemme see.  It just looks like these theists who believe the needless events occured to cause something, while believe that God is all powerful (and thus be able to cause something without the need of events) are just contradicting themselves.  There probably isn't a fallacy name for that, because we can just call it a contradition.  I tried, but I don't even think I can tack Non Sequitor or Ad Hoc on them for it.  It's just simple contradition.


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Quote:What I mean is "is

Quote:
What I mean is "is there a name for this fallacy I mentioned?"

I dunno.  It's just internally contradictory.  "God is beyond cause.  God causes X."  Internal contradiction.  It's not so much a fallacy as a bad premise.  Fallacies are usually arguments.  For instance, the fallacy of ignorance goes like this:

1) We don't know what causes X.

2) Therefore, Y causes X.

That's a logical argument, and we say that it commits a fallacy.  When we assert two contradictory things, we haven't even made a "therefore" statement, so it kind of beats itself to the punch.  It's too stupid to even warrant a fallacy.

 

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those are

all true problems when trying to think about God.

The question then becomes is it paradoxical but true that God can influence human events, if he exists? In a sense it is a meaningless question. In another sense, it can be "approximate truth" as far as we can understand.

To resolve a paradox we have take a viewpoint outside what is currently "known". By definition, what is known is determined through science. Science will not prove God. God will always be paradoxical if he exists. At least we can have the concept of a paradox but no true concept of God.


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or we can say god doesn't

or we can say god doesn't exist, removing those paradoxes and contradictions in the process. Life would be much more simple.

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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

all true problems when trying to think about God.

The question then becomes is it paradoxical but true that God can influence human events, if he exists? In a sense it is a meaningless question. In another sense, it can be "approximate truth" as far as we can understand.

To resolve a paradox we have take a viewpoint outside what is currently "known". By definition, what is known is determined through science. Science will not prove God. God will always be paradoxical if he exists. At least we can have the concept of a paradox but no true concept of God.

Since the idea of a God is so full of contradictions and unknowables, there simply is no good reason for treating as more than just a deeply flawed speculation, no justification whatever for taking as more than just a common fantasy.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Quote:To resolve a paradox

Quote:

To resolve a paradox we have take a viewpoint outside what is currently "known". By definition, what is known is determined through science. Science will not prove God. God will always be paradoxical if he exists. At least we can have the concept of a paradox but no true concept of God.

Why do people say things which have already been refuted?

I wrote:

Of course, you might claim that this supposed being is ineffable and these sorts of conceptual problems about its causal powers do not apply, but then you would be left with a mystery of your own devising, and as such, you would be negating your ability to make knowledge claims about this entity, which in turn would mean you are begging the question by asserting that the being is beyond our conception in the first place...

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:Quote:To

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

To resolve a paradox we have take a viewpoint outside what is currently "known". By definition, what is known is determined through science. Science will not prove God. God will always be paradoxical if he exists. At least we can have the concept of a paradox but no true concept of God.

Why do people say things which have already been refuted?

I wrote:

Of course, you might claim that this supposed being is ineffable and these sorts of conceptual problems about its causal powers do not apply, but then you would be left with a mystery of your own devising, and as such, you would be negating your ability to make knowledge claims about this entity, which in turn would mean you are begging the question by asserting that the being is beyond our conception in the first place...

Well, when he says 'no true concept of God', he could be saying, effectively, that while we might be able to have partial or flawed conceptions of God, we lack the frame of reference to truly conceive of the complete nature of such a being.

As an example:

A man who is blind from birth might know that an orange is, well, orange, but that doesn't mean he really comprehends what an orange looks like. He simply doesn't have a frame of reference to give him just what the color 'orange' (or even what the word 'color') really means from a visual standpoint. Obviously, he could know that "orange" refers to a range in the visible  spectrum with wavelengths between about 585 – 620 nanometers, but that doesn't give him the concept of what orange looks like.

Similarly, we might be able to have a partial understanding of a deity, if it existed, through data, but we still wouldn't be able to fully grasp the concept without having the right experiencial frame of reference.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Hmmm. This doesn't appear to

Hmmm. This doesn't appear to be what he is saying. He is essentially answering the notion that the being he describes is paradoxical by appealling to its ineffability. This makes no sense.

The thought experiment you put forth is well known. Basically a variant of Mary's Room, demonstrating that we cannot conceive of that which we cannot percieve. So, we have limited perceptual ability thus limited conceptual ability. But there is nothing paradoxical about this. Likewise, it might be well and good to state "we have a partial conceptual understanding of God, based on our limited perceptual abilities" but a contradiction is still a contradiction, and cannot be defended by appeal to limited conceptual ability. Because even if our conception of something is limited, if that partial conception still contains a contradiction, then there must be something wrong with it.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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To add to what DG has said

To add to what DG has said (again), it's one thing to say that some people cannot perceive color, and so are limited.  We know what color is.  It's a mental representation of electromagnetic radiation within a small portion of the spectrum.  When we say that we cannot perceive subatomic particles directly, we have a perfect reason -- they're very, very small.  Too small for us to perceive.

When someone attempts to use the same kind of argument for god, it fails for the same reason that the definition of god fails.  It's fine to say that we can't perceive god, but we must give a reason why.  In order to do this, we'd have to know what god was.  So again, the ineffable nature of god becomes the downfall of the statement, regardless of which approach we take.

 

 

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JustAnotherBeliever wrote:To

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

To resolve a paradox we have take a viewpoint outside what is currently "known". By definition, what is known is determined through science. Science will not prove God. God will always be paradoxical if he exists. At least we can have the concept of a paradox but no true concept of God.

Another case of theists hiding god outside of reality so that no-one can disprove his existence. If we can have no true concept of god, why do theists keep ramming him and what he likes and doesn't like down our throats? If your statement were true then we would have no religion.

If god existed we would be able to prove it (one day). Even if we use the "can't find me" definition of god, if he had an effect on our universe we would be able to indirectly prove his existence. Physicists use indirect measurements to look at rare particles by their effect on others. We can prove the existence of distant planets that are too small to see by the effect they have on their stars.

If we cannot see the effect that god has on our universe then either:

A) God does not exist, or

B) God exists outside our universe and has no effect on it, in which case: who cares as he has no effect on us anyway.

If the meddlesome Yahweh existed in any of his three or more forms, we should certainly be able to prove his existence by his effect on the world.

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I just wonder how existing

I just wonder how existing outside of time and space is any different from not existing at all


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Some responses from when I

Some responses from when I posted your "logic" in a Christian chat I belong to.

 

If any atheist on that board were actually astute, they would respond, "You're a nutter.  That makes no sense."


if they were astute, they wouldn't be an atheist Smiling



A. Suppose that God exists and he's all-powerful.  B. God does some stuff I don't understand.  Given A. and B., it follows from the Law of Cluelessness that God cannot exist.


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Quote:A. Suppose that God

Quote:

A. Suppose that God exists and he's all-powerful.  B. God does some stuff I don't understand.  Given A. and B., it follows from the Law of Cluelessness that God cannot exist.

This is clearly absurd. You are commiting little more than a special pleading fallacy. You might claim that this supposed being is ineffable and these sorts of conceptual problems about its causal powers do not apply, but then you would be left with a mystery of your own devising, and as such, you would be negating your ability to make knowledge claims about this entity, which in turn would mean you are begging the question by asserting that the being is beyond our conception in the first place...

The question put forth by the OP was formalized by me. When viewed in this manner, it is obvious that you did not address the argument at hand:

There is an obvious internal contradiction between the notion that there exists some Other-being which has is supposedly outside the influence of causal process (because supposed being is responsible for the existence of said process and the underlying structures such as time) and the very idea that this being has causal powers at all, and hence, that it can influence the world around us at all, or indeed, do anything or perform any action, or be anything other than an inert nothingness. To restate that the agent in question is outside such problems by virtue of its agency-omnipotence is merely the assignation of an incoherent and ad hoc special characteristic which, as formalized above, constitutes a special pleading fallacy.


 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:Quote:A.

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

A. Suppose that God exists and he's all-powerful.  B. God does some stuff I don't understand.  Given A. and B., it follows from the Law of Cluelessness that God cannot exist.

 

 

This is clearly absurd. You are commiting little more than a special pleading fallacy. You might claim that this supposed being is ineffable and these sorts of conceptual problems about its causal powers do not apply, but then you would be left with a mystery of your own devising, and as such, you would be negating your ability to make knowledge claims about this entity, which in turn would mean you are begging the question by asserting that the being is beyond our conception in the first place...

I'm not sure why you are saying "you".  I clearly indicated that these were comments made in a chat.  Seeing as the comment you are responding to was a joke to make fun of the absurd nature of the original argument, this first paragraph is useless.  Maybe humor isn't your thing.
 

deludedgod wrote:

The question put forth by the OP was formalized by me. When viewed in this manner, it is obvious that you did not address the argument at hand:

There is an obvious internal contradiction between the notion that there exists some Other-being which has is supposedly outside the influence of causal process (because supposed being is responsible for the existence of said process and the underlying structures such as time) and the very idea that this being has causal powers at all, and hence, that it can influence the world around us at all, or indeed, do anything or perform any action, or be anything other than an inert nothingness. To restate that the agent in question is outside such problems by virtue of its agency-omnipotence is merely the assignation of an incoherent and ad hoc special characteristic which, as formalized above, constitutes a special pleading fallacy.

Let's try and follow this.  So because God exists outside of His creation, or lets say transcendent, He cannot affect creation.   False, B does not follow A.  It's a mere assertion.  And don't think I didn't see your little trick there.  A prior dissallowing the existence of God with your special pleading charge.  Nifty little trick. You automatically win.  Sadly only in your own mind.

 


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Quote:So because God exists

Quote:

So because God exists outside of His creation, or lets say transcendent, He cannot affect creation.

No. Because it is claimed that this being created the very causal structure itself, it is inherently contradictory to state it has causal powers. The problem comes because "causal actions" constitute actions that occur within certain causal substrates. We call them space and time. Thus, the assertion that there exists some being outside of the causal structures, ie those necessary for causal actions to occur, by the very definition of causal actions, shoots itself in the foot, especially if we are to hold that this being is an entity with causal powers as we recognize them (which is the very basis of the Cosmological argument, as an example. Another problem is that if said being has no causal powers within the world that we inhabit, because that is defined in terms of actions that occur within space and time, then it is contradictory to assert that this agent can do anything within the material world. Not because it is "outside of it", but because to commit actions requires causal powers, and causal powers in turn require certain features which are properties of the physical world. You obviously didn't read the argument at hand,  or you were incapable of grasping it, either of which leads me to conclude that you are lacking in intellectual capacity.


 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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That's funny.You tell off DG

That's funny.

You tell off DG coz you think he is making assertions... Theology is totally based on assertions. There is no actual evidence, direct or indirect, just assertions. That is why we don't believe.

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Well this aint gonna get

Well this aint gonna get anywhere. You are just gonna keep on with your assertion and I'll keep on denying it.  I'm bored.  It's late. I like Saki.


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Quote:Well this aint gonna

Quote:

Well this aint gonna get anywhere. You are just gonna keep on with your assertion and I'll keep on denying it.  I'm bored.  It's late. I like Saki.

Oh please. You haven't addressed the argument, and obviously cannot, and you are merely denying that fact.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:Quote:Well

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

Well this aint gonna get anywhere. You are just gonna keep on with your assertion and I'll keep on denying it.  I'm bored.  It's late. I like Saki.

Oh please. You haven't addressed the argument, and obviously cannot, and you are merely denying that fact.

 

You seem confused.. you haven't made an argument but an assertion.  I know they both begin with a, but they are different things. I deny your assertion.  I deny your assumptions.  I'm bored. Perhaps at some future time I'll find you interesting.


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Quote: You seem confused..

Quote:

 

You seem confused.. you haven't made an argument but an assertion.  I know they both begin with a, but they are different things. I deny your assertion.  I deny your assumptions.  I'm bored. Perhaps at some future time I'll find you interesting.

I have made an argument. I don't know what you think an argument is. An argument is something that begins with a set of premises, and ends with a conclusion. If you can point out precisely which premise is an unjustified assertion, or that the conclusion does not follow from the premise, then you will have defeated the argument. As it stands now, you haven't. I suspect you simply are incapable of grasping the issue at hand. Unsuprising really.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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