Fossils, Evidence & Ignorance

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Fossils, Evidence & Ignorance

 I'm reading a great book from the Smithsonian Institute called "Humans" which provides tons of pictures and information about our species in an understandable nutshell. Even though I always ponder philosophical and deep questions, this book has made me look back and say "Wow...we're an incredible species"

Yet our species is also an obnoxiously ignorant one at large. As I read through the findings on the origins of life, examined fossils and began to get basic concepts on our evolutionary past I couldn't help but thinking "This makes sense, this is fascinating..WHY THE HELL DON'T PEOPLE ACCEPT THIS?!" I mean they're FOSSILS for crying out loud. Do religious nuts honestly think scientists and researchers made these out of clay or something? How can anyone possibly think we arrived a mere 6,000 years ago when the fact that we're NOT is the foundation for understanding our ENTIRE EXISTENCE?

And how can people be so blind about our relationship with apes? We share almost all of the same DNA! DUHHH. It makes me feel terribly sorry for the scientists who are so excited and intelligent with their constantly new findings and theories, only to be met with "No, I think a book written by people living in huts thousands of years ago makes more sense."

 

Finally, I've always noticed since I was young how complex, beautiful and amazing our planet is. I never, ever could fathom how, armed with the knowledge from our research and our studies, that we could ever think the world was so simplistic, watered down and human-centered? Even TODAY, with our CONSTANTLY changing ideas! Humans might as well have been an accident of luck, since many of our ancestors died out.

The problem of course is that humans fear the unknown and would rather comfort themselves with a blanket lie than face the reality: we don't know shit. We only can understand small pieces of the puzzle and are becoming more and more aware, but just when we see something one way we are proven wrong.

 

I needed to rant. People make me very sad..

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby


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Exactly. One thing I notice

Exactly. One thing I notice is you don't see people outside the US (in the advanced countries anyway) denying evolution or global warming without being laughed at. Here they are taken seriously or are even the majority in some areas! Again, the awful lack of scientific understanding and critical thinking in this country makes me want to cry sometimes.

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peppermint wrote: I'm

peppermint wrote:

 I'm reading a great book from the Smithsonian Institute called "Humans" which provides tons of pictures and information about our species in an understandable nutshell. Even though I always ponder philosophical and deep questions, this book has made me look back and say "Wow...we're an incredible species"

Yet our species is also an obnoxiously ignorant one at large. As I read through the findings on the origins of life, examined fossils and began to get basic concepts on our evolutionary past I couldn't help but thinking "This makes sense, this is fascinating..WHY THE HELL DON'T PEOPLE ACCEPT THIS?!" I mean they're FOSSILS for crying out loud. Do religious nuts honestly think scientists and researchers made these out of clay or something? How can anyone possibly think we arrived a mere 6,000 years ago when the fact that we're NOT is the foundation for understanding our ENTIRE EXISTENCE?

And how can people be so blind about our relationship with apes? We share almost all of the same DNA! DUHHH. It makes me feel terribly sorry for the scientists who are so excited and intelligent with their constantly new findings and theories, only to be met with "No, I think a book written by people living in huts thousands of years ago makes more sense."

 

Finally, I've always noticed since I was young how complex, beautiful and amazing our planet is. I never, ever could fathom how, armed with the knowledge from our research and our studies, that we could ever think the world was so simplistic, watered down and human-centered? Even TODAY, with our CONSTANTLY changing ideas! Humans might as well have been an accident of luck, since many of our ancestors died out.

The problem of course is that humans fear the unknown and would rather comfort themselves with a blanket lie than face the reality: we don't know shit. We only can understand small pieces of the puzzle and are becoming more and more aware, but just when we see something one way we are proven wrong.

 

I needed to rant. People make me very sad..

 

I'm inclined to concur,

it sucks that no matter how good you made your points or how the evidence stacks up, some will go down with every ignorant claim they've got and use worthless reasoning tactics to prove an otherwise lost cause.

 

by the way, knowing that evolution has pretty much been proven as true, they're just looking for ways to insert god and eternity to give them comfort about death (why the fuck would a person want to have an eternal after-life in heaven in the first place? that would get boring pretty damn fast wouldn't you think? At least the reincarnation idea makes it interesting) they know evolution is true! they just won't admit it.

"The longer you live the higher you fly,
the smiles you'll give and the tears you'll cry,
all you touch and all you see,
is all your life will ever be."
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peppermint wrote:Yet our

peppermint wrote:
Yet our species is also an obnoxiously ignorant one at large. As I read through the findings on the origins of life, examined fossils and began to get basic concepts on our evolutionary past I couldn't help but thinking "This makes sense, this is fascinating..WHY THE HELL DON'T PEOPLE ACCEPT THIS?!"

Part of the explanation  is no doubt to be found in the education system : Evolution and Creationism in America's Classrooms: A National Portrait biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/

The concluding par reads:

Quote:
These findings strongly suggest that victory in the courts is not enough for the scientific community to ensure that evolution is included in high school science courses. Nor is success in persuading states to adopt rigorous content standards consistent with recommendations of the National Academy of Sciences and other scientific organizations. Scientists concerned about the quality of evolution instruction might have a bigger impact in the classroom by focusing on the certification standards for high school biology teachers. Our study suggests that requiring all teachers to complete a course in evolutionary biology would have a substantial impact on the emphasis on evolution and its centrality in high school biology courses. In the long run, the impact of such a change could have a more far reaching effect than the victories in courts and in state governments.

Much work to be done.

I take a skeptical approach, but I am not sure whether that is correct!


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peppermint wrote:Yet our

peppermint wrote:

Yet our species is also an obnoxiously ignorant one at large. As I read through the findings on the origins of life, examined fossils and began to get basic concepts on our evolutionary past I couldn't help but thinking "This makes sense, this is fascinating..WHY THE HELL DON'T PEOPLE ACCEPT THIS?!" I mean they're FOSSILS for crying out loud. Do religious nuts honestly think scientists and researchers made these out of clay or something?

I have a theory on this...

I think any national museum worth its weight in ancient artifacts... would have  handed off a plaster bone replica to the creation scientist

>.>

Just for shits and jiggles... think it backfired? ;-p

 

(And most dino bones in museums ARE some plaster composite crap... you think they drill holes through the real ones and put them on display? HA! silly... silly creationists)

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Simply put,creationists have

Simply put,creationists have better PR. I think evolution is fascianting stuff,but the average scientist is more concerned with making actual discoveries than making it more interesting to the public.I'm not complaining, that's their job.Since creationists don't actually do any discovering,they dominte the PR and propaganda sector. Go to any creationist site and you'll find a list of 'facts' that disprove evolution. Anyone with a average to good knowledge of evolution could debunk them, but I'm sure they look convincing to the absolute layman. They don't even have to be complicated. I know that because it is the theory of evolution, many people honestly thinks that means it's gueswork with no proof.

Probably the bigget factor is laziness.It's easier to say goddidit than read some evolution books.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

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peppermint wrote:The problem

peppermint wrote:

The problem of course is that humans fear the unknown and would rather comfort themselves with a blanket lie than face the reality: we don't know shit. 

That's pretty much it. Fear is an excellent motivator for all kinds of crazy behaviour, including the invention of gods (and monsters, in turn, to fear).

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Fear of giant sea creatures,

Fear of giant sea creatures, dragons & unicorns. Fear of "spirits" and "demons". People's imaginations run wild when they are afraid.

I agree that we have a very long way to go in terms of USA classrooms. Not only are many schools STILL teaching creationism, America's public schools tend to be based on conforming to follow a leader of absolute authority (teacher, principals, etc), which leaves little room for freethinking in the classroom. This highly structured, "indoor voice" environment with limited play time and gym class only once a week (see obesity epidemic in children, very sad) produces kids who have a hard time looking outside of the box. They spend their time glued to computer and television screens, watching mindless garbage instead of playing outside and exploring nature with their families.

I feel bad for kids a lot of the time. They're spoon fed all this religious crap and then ignored when they have actually interesting questions. I think the best families are based on rigorous discussion and open minds. I love debating with my father and having philosophical discussions with my mother. I would hate if my family simply told me "God made everything" and got angry if I probed why.

Side note: I was at a Jewish friend's house recently, and their youngest daughter was making her Book of Why? Ironically, one of the questions is "How do we know God never lies?" I frankly felt put off by the whole thing...

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby


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The Real Problem

1) Sol does not circle Earth. It's the other way 'round.

2) Earth, for that matter, is not a flat disc "under" Heaven and "above" Hell.

The Bible authors believed that 1) and 2) were true, yet even most fundamentalist Christians have let those notions go.

Still, they fight like men possessed (heh heh) to defend the creation story(-ies) of Genesis. Why?

Because Genesis matters in ways the others don't.

So this is a spherical planet which goes around a star. Okay, fine. That's just cosmology. Space dust, solar radiation. No biggie.

But... mankind? Us? You and I? We can't just be another one of nature's experiments. We can't just be one of millions of species which evolve (and continue to) along with all the rest. WE CAN'T BE.

Because then there's no magic. Then we're not "special." We're not set above and apart from the world. We're just another element of it. We're naked apes. Mammals which talk and think abstractly.

And that... that just can't be, say these Creationists. That crashes the whole project.

It's one thing to believe - as they do - that we are subject to the laws of nature (chemistry, physics, etc.) during our temporary incarceration here in this vale of tears. So what? This isn't the part that matters, anyway.

Christians love to say: We are IN the world but not OF it.

But what if we are? What if this is not some way-station en route to everlasting spiritual reward or punishment or some manner of testing ground? What if THIS IS IT? What if this is what we are? Animals - like all the others. Not outcasts from some enchanted otherworld (Eden/Heaven) but animals.

Of all the sciences, nothing shoves this awareness in your face like evolutionary biology. Nothing. And that's why they have such a problem with it.

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One big factor...

is that people are brought up "religious" and there is a familial and social stigma that keeps them from going against the beliefs they were brought up with. I have made the mistake in my life of being with a woman who was brought up in a religious fanatic background, she never told me that when we first got together, and then we had kids, and one thing led to another. In "the god delusion" Dawkins says that only one out of twelve people who are brought up religious ever break away from that pattern. I know from experience that there is no reasoning with most of these nuts, there is nothing you can say that will sway them. The best advice I could possibly give to someone who is dealing with a religious nut is to just go away. If it is a girlfriend/boyfriend, and you don't have kids with them, just walk away, it's not that hard, you just put one foot in front of the other, change your email, your phone #, everything. I have done it before, I can't do it now, or at least I think I can't, but that doesn't mean that others can't.


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the title of this topic says

posts made by theists in the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum will be DELETED

READ THE RULES


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Archbishop_Of_Canterbury

Archbishop_Of_Canterbury wrote:

the title of this topic says it all , Athiests in this forum are trying to use evidence so old that it could be fossils , the evidence is so out of date there's no hope of finding out its authenticity and the Ignorance and pomposity of people within this forum about religion frankly astounds me !

...Just so we're clear:

You think that evolutionary science and achaelogical science are actually older, and thus more outdated, than the stories of the Bible?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Archbishop_Of_Canterbury wrote:

the title of this topic says it all , Athiests in this forum are trying to use evidence so old that it could be fossils , the evidence is so out of date there's no hope of finding out its authenticity and the Ignorance and pomposity of people within this forum about religion frankly astounds me !

...Just so we're clear:

You think that evolutionary science and achaelogical science are actually older, and thus more outdated, than the stories of the Bible?

Careful, Kevin, you'll give him an aneurysm.

 

Boards don't hit back. (Bruce Lee)


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I've got at home a thick

I've got at home a thick book of archeology mistakes. It's something like an encyclopedia of misinterpreted archeologic findings, by prejudice, authority, rigid ways of thinking, laziness, fear from rewriting the history books, and so on.
It shows, that many archeologic experts makes mistakes, for example, when they find a "young" bone in much older layer of soil, they assume, that it fell there somehow by a geologic shift. When the discovery is too out of bookish version of history, they assume they moved something wrongly, and they will "adjust" it.
It's mostly just small things, but when there are thousands of them, it may create very different image of reality and prehistory. Evolution is a good idea, but it has it's flaws in practical realization, people pushes too hard, to make it all fit the books.

For example, I would like to know, from where do we humans have our aquatic traits. I mean, no fur (hairs yes, but fur is a different thing), we can't swallow and breathe at the same time (it's vital function for animals like crocodiles) and we can swim under water.
Monkeys and apes doesn't have it, as far as I know, we couldn't inherit it from our ancestors, living on savanna.
Certain clue is a book of Dr. Ernst Muldasev, who did a big research on intelligent ancestors of human race, known as Atlantians and Lemurians. Lemurians were definitely semi-aquatic beings, that's clear from the research. Now I'd want to know, where's the missing link between Muldasev's interesting discoveries, and a human evolution. The "correcting" of archeology probably makes it hard to find.

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 Nothing but caricatures

 Nothing but caricatures, conspiracies, and fantasies, eh?


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Luminon wrote:For example, I

Luminon wrote:


For example, I would like to know, from where do we humans have our aquatic traits. I mean, no fur (hairs yes, but fur is a different thing), we can't swallow and breathe at the same time (it's vital function for animals like crocodiles) and we can swim under water.
Monkeys and apes doesn't have it, as far as I know, we couldn't inherit it from our ancestors, living on savanna.
Certain clue is a book of Dr. Ernst Muldasev, who did a big research on intelligent ancestors of human race, known as Atlantians and Lemurians. Lemurians were definitely semi-aquatic beings, that's clear from the research. Now I'd want to know, where's the missing link between Muldasev's interesting discoveries, and a human evolution. The "correcting" of archeology probably makes it hard to find.

*groans*

Are you shitting me?  I'm familiar with the theory that human ancestors at one time went through an aquatic stage in recent evolutionary history and it has been thoroughly debunked.

A) Humans have more hair than Chimps. Our hair is just much smaller and more fine than Chimp hair.  But for as the reason why?  Because we did evolve to fit a Savanna environment.  We developed a very efficient cooling system.  Indeed the best cooling system of any mammal.  Obviously a thick mat of hair would hinder this cooling process.

B) Yes we can't breath and swallow at the same time.  That's because our larnyx had to move higher up in our throats to regulate speech.  An antelope can drink and breathe at the same time but it can't talk.

C) The reason why we can swim underwater is because we have such remarkable control of our breathing.  More so than most other mammals.  Why?  Again because we can talk.  We HAVE to have a very fine control over our breathing in order to talk.  This has actually been shown to not exist in Homo Erectus from studies of their spinal columns.  The space for the nerves in Homo Sapiens is much larger mid chest range than our recent ancestors.  We need that extra space for nerves that allow us to talk.  Being able to hold our breath so wonderfully is simply a by-product.

Do you always just latch onto an idea that sounds superficially plausable and not give it any more thought or investigation?

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So why we can talk, then?

So why we can talk, then? Animals often have very complex "language" of voice and body, and it seems to work well (even for things like an organized and coordinated hunt), so why did we have to develop a language?
My teacher had some lectures about it, and he described language as "intrinsically rewarding", thus children themselves have a tendency to use language codes.

The discoveries of Ernst Muldasev are scientific and very logical. This is why I take them seriously. It's a controversial topic, but a controversy is only in your mind, it's nothing worth of worrying about.

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A mutation in the FOXP2 gene

A mutation in the FOXP2 gene is believed to play a role in the development of our ability to create and process language. It has effects on the development of certain tissues, including the brain and lungs.

From wikipedia:

"Several cases of developmental verbal dyspraxia in humans have been linked to mutations in the FOXP2 gene. Individuals have little or no cognitive handicaps but are unable to correctly perform the coordinated movements required for speech."

 

 


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I had a dog that could swim

I had a dog that could swim under water. She could actually get to the bottom of our swimming pool to get a solid rubber ball. Holding you breath is just learning to control your breathing.

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