How does 0 + 0 = every thing!

Llama
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How does 0 + 0 = every thing!

For math I lerned that 0 + 0 = 0. The universe doesnt know math because it said 0 + 0 = every thing, lol. How did energies and mater be created with out a creator? I know this is tough question so its ok if you intellegent people dont know the answer. Give me a good guess?


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I think your (3) is a

I think your (3) is a caricature or a poor choice of wording. Nobody thinks quantum mechanics caused the universe to come into being from actual nothingness—if quantum mechanics exists, something exists, which means you're positing that the universe came from something, not nothing. Quantum physicists, like Victor J. Stenger, like to use the word "nothing" for shock value but they are not referring to actual nothingness. Think about a region of space between Earth and Mars where there is no matter. Is that void of space actually nothing? No, because the membranous fabric of the universe exists within that region and it fluctuates wildly, sometimes producing virtual particles. It is that sort of "nothing" that physicists like Victor J. Stenger are referring to, and the same sort of fluctuation except much more violent.

There are other views about the origin of the cosmos. Many theoretical physicists postulate that our universe is one of many which all bubbled off from a cosmic foam, or came into existence through the collision of 11-dimensional membranes. The 11-dimensional membrane idea is from string theory, but there are a few theoretical scientists who think string theory is overrated. One of those is Lee Smolin, who postulates something akin to biological evolution but happening at the cosmic scale. Basically, universes give rise to other universes through blackholes and the universes more capable of creating blackholes tend to predominate, and that our universe came from a blackhole of another universe. There might be other ideas of how our universe came to be, but I'm not aware of any others.

Even though these ideas might seem strange, they make more sense to me than postulating the existence of a god or a supernatural realm. You begin talking about causes outside the causal manifold of spacetime, which makes no sense. Plus, unless the universe is actually composed of the same stuff that the god is composed of, you must postulate that the stuff that comprises the universe must have always existed in some form or another as a separate entity from god or that the stuff of the universe essentially came from nothing but I see no way for even a god to make something come from actual nothingness because it seems logically contradictory. The idea of a god only seems simple when you look at it superficially but is very confusing and generally unintelligible when you look at the idea with a critical eye.

Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!


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The Big Picture? .... What

The Big Picture? .... What do we know about the infinite eternal force (god) or whatever is going on NOW, THEN, NEXT???  Hardly a rats ass nothing. So yeah, the AWE. In that sense we are indeed incredible. To say we are "Special" is a philosophical science  opinion/perspective of often silly comparisons. Is anything more special ??? Religion dogma is obviously an embarrassing error in our reasoning. Religion as we know it must cease.

  Please read this CHRISTIAN inspiration to sick "Holy" Hitler. 7 steps to dealing with the Jews.  Get ready to be shocked ..... From the xian Hero SAINT, honored icon of the  "Luther Church" ..... sheezzzzz

  http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/on_jews_and_their_lies_p2.html  

  Quotes from Martin Luther
  'On Jews and their Lies' Part Two
  Luther's Advice for dealing with the Jews

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW: Heil is closely related to the English word Holy. It can also mean salvation, health, success and many other meanings. = Heil Hitler .... Holy Bush  WTF ..... 

http://www.nsm88.org/articles/heil.html

 


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I agree

with both of you...

"Or, do you define god as simply "something else" and have no intention of defining it further?  In that case, I may believe in god aka "something else", but I'd like you to show evidence for that "something else".

That is exactly the best definition of God I can come up with...God is something else that is impossible to define further....the words "something else "are all that is possible to describe God.  It is totally "other" than anything we could possible know...and unfortunately I can provide no evidence of it.

I dont disagree with the cosmic foam ideas. To me they are just a variation of the possibility that the universe has always existed in some form or other...To have any time of being, there has to exist some type of pure being...you can call it the universe, or Universe, God, or whatever you want.

I picture the pure being creating the physical universe but that may be just the best idea I can hold on to. I agree that it is probably a poor approximation to the truth.

 

 

 


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How do you believe in an

How do you believe in an undefined something? That's utterly bizarre.


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Llama wrote:For math I

Llama wrote:

For math I lerned that 0 + 0 = 0. The universe doesnt know math because it said 0 + 0 = every thing, lol. How did energies and mater be created with out a creator? I know this is tough question so its ok if you intellegent people dont know the answer. Give me a good guess?


 


You're making a few assumptions.  Human assumptions, but assumptions none the less.
There is probably and likely so much stuff we don't have any clue about.  Major laws of physics we don't know about.  Different dimentions and aspects and equations and lines of existance we could not know about.
We don't know if existance is more like a circle, with no beginning or end, but a self-fueled pattern of sorts.
Maybe something came from nothing even.  Just because that doesn't happen at our level doesn't mean the same fact should be applied at the universe level.  Appling the same fact would be commiting the composition fallacy: the error of assuming that the properties of the whole will be the same as the properties of the parts.  Just because a bike is made of lightweight parts doesn't mean the bike as a whole will be light weight.  Just because everything in the universe has a cause and comes from something doesn't mean existance as a whole follows those perameters.

Quite frankly the answer to all these tough questions is:  "I dunno."
And it will probably remain that way for quite some time, if not ever.
Although it is not a complete answer, for the moment it is the correct answer.
And pretending to know any other answer would be dishonesty.


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faeces

If this topic keeps going, I will laugh myself into a coma.

The topic appears to be continuing.

Therefore, I will laugh myself into a coma (brb, bilateral damage to the reticular formation of the midbrain).

 

QED.

 

Llama, that's called logic. Learn some.

 

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God of the Gaps: As knowledge approaches infinity, God approaches zero. It's introductory calculus.


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

with both of you...

"Or, do you define god as simply "something else" and have no intention of defining it further?  In that case, I may believe in god aka "something else", but I'd like you to show evidence for that "something else".

That is exactly the best definition of God I can come up with...God is something else that is impossible to define further....the words "something else "are all that is possible to describe God.  It is totally "other" than anything we could possible know...and unfortunately I can provide no evidence of it.

 

 

 

I agree with the "how can you believe in something defined as "something else?"" comment.

 

Isn't it ALWAYS "something else"?

 

For example, god exists:... "no, it's something else".

God is god: "no, its something else".

 

It's quite an attack on logic and reason - and leaving you with what?  Something else?  Not very powerful, I'm afraid.  However, I believe you are right in general.  Theists don't know, and they are always non-defining God into Something Else  - and I think you'll respect my position - is the same thing as a god not existing in the first place.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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 Quote:fear is a great tool

 

Quote:
fear is a great tool oppression uses and religious leaders pull it all the time. but not limited to religion but used in it for sure. fear closely used to make people follow in the pursuit or greed, power, and religion so any wonder why these three things seem to end up in reasons for war? and i really dont care how it begun because whats it going to do to help me? yea i agree is fun to think how life be if we settled on new planet didnt have to worry about this destruction ego god that has proven that nothing is ever good enough for him. and logical think tends to make think he was formed to put fear in people to follow whatever law passed because if you don't you will burn in a special place called hell? he could save but he chooses who he wants to save what the fuck logic believe?

well i had a class last fall called faith reason and imagination and the teacher lets us keep the nfomedia page with all sorts of resources i just got to resignup every semster the guy was cool.i loved that class and other religion class learned a lot and retained.

and yea i think life from nother planet help us before i need to have credit for all you do good and only you take blame when you wrong for i am the great i am and i created you in my image. i am a jeolous and angry god but a god of love and mercy and i sent my son to pay your price so you can be in heaven with me. just please forget i created everything like sin and evil because i hate those!!! wait a minute this god does claim he created all things??? so why did he create sin and evil????

 

 

ok i be back tomorrow after class probably.

General

Only reason why I reply to this theology reply is because I see a huge butt load of things written by the deludedgod and it will take so much of my free time to reply to his thing. I will reply paragrpah by paragrpah to minimize confusions. So for now I reply to this before I get down and dirty with replying to his pseudoscience. Again if deludedgod claims he proves godless universe origin (with science) then indeed he is a DELUDED!

Um I read a lot of your reply about fear power and greed and those things are every where man puts his dirty finger at. Nationalism is the greatest threat to mankind and not religion. WW1 and WW2 the greatest wars and liquidation of human life was foolish pride in nationalism. The Cuban Missile crisis which could have ended the world (we where very close to that) was caused by nationalism democracy vs communism, blue vs red, theism vs atheism. Its in the in and out group at play as always. So for all the crocadile tears you shed from the atrocity of religion you should be grateful you had the chance to be here because of a catholic man (JFK) chose discretion and a peaceful resolve to end the Cuban missile crisis.

Also it seams you love to be very literal with the bible and focus your attention at the bad parts of the old testament which was before Jesus and christianity, can you be any more biased? Narrow your goggle vision more please! Your not going to convince God he doesnt exist by pointing your refernces to the bible. Despite popular believe God did not write any books. He gave man instructions and of course man fudges up a lot. Why you don't think about this or use common sense and be reasonable about this possibility is mired in your desire for absolvation of responsibilites to the heavenly father. That trick won't work and claiming ignorance is not going to fly you will be judge no better or worse by your deeds then the most educated spiritual god fearing man. There will always be authority over you it seems like you like to lower your standards and heed mans authority as the ultimate authority. Maybe because you think you have a part or investment in your society and you too get to be a judge and be judged... hey at least you get to play judge and leer over the little ones below your pedastal you heightened with your self serving ideas. It's a nice trick and you're deluded. You can flame me all you want I probably wont reply but I will read so be happy and rejoice for you get the ultimate judegment on poor Llama!

Any on here who seriously thinks they are their own source, their own mover, their own master, aka God is seriously deluded and besides I never believed in Gods that go poopy in the night and tinkle thinkles after too much drinkies

Bleeeat!


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Quote:Only reason why I

Quote:

Only reason why I reply to this theology reply is because I see a huge butt load of things written by the deludedgod and it will take so much of my free time to reply to his thing. I will reply paragrpah by paragrpah to minimize confusions. So for now I reply to this before I get down and dirty with replying to his pseudoscience. Again if deludedgod claims he proves godless universe origin (with science) then indeed he is a DELUDED!

OK. Go ahead. You already said you would do this last week and have yet to have done so. It won't take you long to realize that at least three years of tertiary education in mechanics and biochemistry is a necessary prerequisite to assemble a proper response. But since you said you had years of study, this naturally shouldn't be a problem for you. On the other hand, you simultaneously claimed that you couldn't understand the posts in question, which means you either have memory problems, or easily accomodate doublethink. I ask only one thing of you. At present, your writing style is that of a third or fourth grader. If this continues, I shall refuse to continue this discussion. If your posts are incomprehensible because you can't write in proper English complete with proper grammar and syntax, then I can't very well counter, can I? Also, please ensure that your response is technical. A response which lays out counterarguments using mathematics and technical terminology is easily evaluated. So please feel free to go nuts with the equations and concepts. Forget metaphors and simple language, I don't need a science class. I've already had many, many of those. Far more than you have.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Hey Grasshopper, A question.

Hey Grasshopper, A question. Is any atom in the entire universe more important than another ? 


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I want to know how zero

I want to know how zero evidence plus zero rationality equals a llama. That's intriguing.


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i will say good job realizing that book not perfect.

i don't think their is a god. and i don't now how to put it unless it covers everything and llama if you want that ill give it to you. but 0 proof and evidence unless realizing you life in childhood has never stopped being a fucking living hell. if thats proof which i don't see how then this is not a god of love but like the song voices by rev theory which here are the lyrics

i hear voices in my head
they council me
they understand
they talk to me!
you got your rules and your religion
all designed to keep you safe
but when rules start getting broken
you start questioning your faith
i have a voice that is my savior
hates to love and loves to hate
i have the voice that has the knowledge
and the power to rule your fate
i hear voices crying
i see heroes dying
i taste the blood thats drying
i feel the tension risingall the lawyers are defenseless
all the doctors are disease
and the preachers all are sinners
and the police just take the grease
all you judges you are guilty
all the bosses i will fire
all you bankers will have losses
and politicians are all liarsI see darkness falling
I hear voices calling
I feel justice crawling
I see faith has fallen

love this song randy orton wwe enterance theme song and like it says i have a voice that is my savior
hates to love and loves to hate
i have the voice that has the knowledge
and the power to rule your fate
oh yea this is a song not my belief.

ps Llama you want what i mean by living hell i will tell you but it will be a long read because I rarely forget it my past events!

 

Later All

General

 


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                ENERGY------------------>      DANCING      <-----------------MATTER

                                                         CONTAINED

                                                              in the

                                                      ETERNAL/INFINITE

                                                              ONE 

                                                             +      -

                                                          SUM ZERO

                                                                     


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Hey Deludedgod, did you post

Hey Deludedgod, did you post that monster of a response expecting your opponent to actually read it and learn stuff? Or were you just trying to scare him off? That's what I thought. Seriously, you don't go pasting Planck's equations or whatever on an internet forum if you're trying to get the other man to understand. I could whip out a bunch of Latin theology words and pwnzor your secular brain, but it wouldn't accomplish anything, so I don't do that.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Quote:Hey Deludedgod, did

Quote:

Hey Deludedgod, did you post that monster of a response expecting your opponent to actually read it and learn stuff?

I do want Llama to learn stuff. I often stress that equations and technical terminologies should not be frightening. An equation, after all, is little more than a set of symbols to represent the equivalence of two concepts. Think of it like this. I have to presume certain amounts of knowledge on the part of those I debate with, such as the mathematical ability to interpret equations, and a fair understanding of physics, chemistry, and biology. If I didn't, the post would turn into a book, not a post. For the biology, I had to employ a lot of technical terminology because if I didn't, the post would be too long. I use technical posts often. I don't have a problem with the system in place I offer. If concepts or terms are problematic, I will clarify them. Do you want to know what "aminoacyl tRNA synthetase" or "protein allostery" means? No problem. Do you want to know how "F=GMm(r^-2) is derived, and the conceptual basis? I can go through that as well. At any rate, Llama did say he had studied this topic for years, so its only fair for me to presume that he does know about things like Cosmological Redshift, and Hubble Time, entropy, statistical mechanics, the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution, etc. etc. You come across those things alot when you study physics and Cosmology.
 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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dg didn't try to show someone up Llama did

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Hey Deludedgod, did you post that monster of a response expecting your opponent to actually read it and learn stuff? Or were you just trying to scare him off? That's what I thought. Seriously, you don't go pasting Planck's equations or whatever on an internet forum if you're trying to get the other man to understand. I could whip out a bunch of Latin theology words and pwnzor your secular brain, but it wouldn't accomplish anything, so I don't do that.

wow you know dark ages language man thats impressive stuff right there!I swear! I think you deserve a cookie! but i must say i don't want another dark ages because i like learning and trying to gain as much retainible knowledge as possible but i can't remember names. yet i remember lectures doing sometimes 2-3 things while listening to the lecture so please lets not go back to the Dark Ages i want to have a shot at doing something and helping the world instead of using fear to ruin it all because of religion used to explain answers we can't know answers too. deal we not go back to dark ages?  Presuppositionalist

 

General


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Hey Deludedgod, did you post that monster of a response expecting your opponent to actually read it and learn stuff? Or were you just trying to scare him off? That's what I thought. Seriously, you don't go pasting Planck's equations or whatever on an internet forum if you're trying to get the other man to understand. I could whip out a bunch of Latin theology words and pwnzor your secular brain, but it wouldn't accomplish anything, so I don't do that.

Then do it. Pwnz him like you say you can.  Remember to site your sources.

Sounds made up...
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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:
Hey Deludedgod, did you post that monster of a response expecting your opponent to actually read it and learn stuff? Or were you just trying to scare him off? That's what I thought. Seriously, you don't go pasting Planck's equations or whatever on an internet forum if you're trying to get the other man to understand.

A lot of what he said isn't that complicated, it just requires a bit of thought and research.

Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!


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Presuppositionalist wrote:I

Presuppositionalist wrote:
I could whip out a bunch of Latin theology words and pwnzor your secular brain, but it wouldn't accomplish anything, so I don't do that.

How fitting, incoherent nonsense deserves a dead language.

 


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Hey Deludedgod, did you post that monster of a response expecting your opponent to actually read it and learn stuff? Or were you just trying to scare him off? That's what I thought. Seriously, you don't go pasting Planck's equations or whatever on an internet forum if you're trying to get the other man to understand. I could whip out a bunch of Latin theology words and pwnzor your secular brain, but it wouldn't accomplish anything, so I don't do that.

Please, do so. It might be very interesting to see who else here responds to it.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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KSMB

KSMB wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:
I could whip out a bunch of Latin theology words and pwnzor your secular brain, but it wouldn't accomplish anything, so I don't do that.

How fitting, incoherent nonsense deserves a dead language.

 

 

Can I quote you on this!  Very good.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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daedalus wrote:KSMB

daedalus wrote:

KSMB wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:
I could whip out a bunch of Latin theology words and pwnzor your secular brain, but it wouldn't accomplish anything, so I don't do that.

How fitting, incoherent nonsense deserves a dead language.

Can I quote you on this!  Very good.

You most certainly can! Smiling


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Llama wrote:For math I

Llama wrote:

For math I lerned that 0 + 0 = 0. The universe doesnt know math because it said 0 + 0 = every thing, lol. How did energies and mater be created with out a creator? I know this is tough question so its ok if you intellegent people dont know the answer. Give me a good guess?

 

Your argument is a straw man. the universe, according to general relativity, did not spring from nothing. It began with a singularity. We have singularities  in the universe even now. They are called black holes. You wouldn't claim black holes are nothing would you? They have mass, spin, and some may have electrical charge. <edit> Oh, and I forgot to include temperature.

Additionally, general relativity is not now thought to be a completely valid description for the very early universe anyway. When the universe was extremely young and small, quantum effects must have played a major role, and general relativity does not take quantum effects into account. Given this, many (probably most) cosmologists now believe it is pushing relativity beyond its validity to extrapolate all the way back to zero size and infinite density.

The only truly valid answer we have at this point is that we still do not know what happened prior to, or during the earliest history of the big bang or where the big bang singularity came from, and we probably will not know until we have a correct and confirmed theory of quantum gravity. But we do have some interesting hypotheses even now. At the very least, we have no reason to believe that the universe requires a creator. As a whole, it may very well be eternal and infinite.


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3t7 , Thanks for your

3t7 , Thanks for your "Bright" posting.


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:-)

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

3t7 , Thanks for your "Bright" posting.

I think I may have got here a little late though. Everything I've said was probably already covered, and Llama may have gone back to the farm.


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 Quote:Matter did not exist

 

Quote:
Matter did not exist before the BB. Matter is interconvertible with energy, however. Don't you understand? The BB was a transition event. The mechanism it outlined precisely in my post, at least the part which is currently understoond by physics. Please, please just read my post again. I said nothing which is not currently understood by physics, and did not provide a model for the unanswered question of the boundary condition. Most of what I posted has been known in physics for about 100 years. Please just open a physics textbook, or go away. Really. 


 

I never heard of the bang singularity being one of transition. It's not science books, in the lectures I've seen, this may be the first time I ever heard of this hypothesis. This is why I say what you say is not science because it's not proven to be correct or even leading theory of the bang singularity.


 

Quote:
Huh? How is this any more than pure assertion? The answer to the question is no doubt complex and intricate and can only be understood in the context of a significant background in physics. Much like I cannot explain to you how to prove Fermat's Last theorem or Navier-Stokes fluid mechanics, or the many other numerous complex phenomenon that exist.


 

So you're saying this is no language in the english language to explain complex things to the every day man? I've seen video clips and lectures of the quantum physics and world explain quite well in common english and the quantum world is a world the human brain can never understand because of our limitations. I stand firm its your lack of communication skills rather then bleeding edge physics can only be understood in principle by those that tinker with it. No yes I concede math is a language one must master to understand and really no easy way to simplify for non masters but english is not like math.


 

Quote:
This is ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. If you read my writing, you will note that I take extreme care with my prose. It is always well-constructed, with proper grammar, spelling and coherent ideas. You, by contrast, have no grasp of basic English. You clearly don't take writing very seriously and your writing skills are exceptionally poor. How can you expect others to decipher your ideas if you yourself refuse to put in the time and effort to write properly?


 

What I write can be understood its pretty self evident no? Just look at all the replies to my replies they seem to understand what I say. You last post was too long and I glanced over the techy parts but I won't do that now as I seriously try to reply to it.


 

Quote:
Actually, I have the complete backing of physics on this one. I don't think you understand. This is not a thesis, this is not a proof. What I assembled was mostly physics that has been known since Hubble and Einstein. There was absolutely nothing whatsoever I wrote that is in contradiction to modern physics. Why is this incredibly difficult for you to grasp? All I did was present an overview of modern cosmology. None of these ideas are my own. None of them. Not one. Most have been known since before my birth. If you would only read my post you would realize the following:

1. You presented certain ideas about matter and energy and the BB. These ideas were thoroughly confused and demonstrate you have no understanding of physics.

2. I presented an overview of some portions of modern physics and therefore demosntrated that your ideas are completely incorrect.

Why can't you grasp this? Do you have some reading comprehension problem or are you just retarded?

I never heard of any theory saying that there was something before the bang singularity, that's the problem I have with it. Scientist say that bang singularity brought with it as well space time. With out space time what you have is the dimension of eternity then what ever was before the bang singularity was eternal and material things can't be eternal. I also hear from science that before bang singularity there was nothing and you say there was something and that something was energy. So what should I believe.. science community or you an atheist with an agenda to push? I think science is more honest.

  1. Whatever you just say stuff you don't even point to an example to prove what you say is real and not just rethoric. Give me example and show us why I'm so ignorant and flase about energy, mater and the bang singularity.

  2. That we will see as I look into it fully.

Sad well.... Llamas are a superior race of beings who incarnated to earth to study humans and simple life and yes I was told by all the other Llamas that I was retarded. They told me to go play with humans because a retarded Llama is in parity with a smart human. So I mind hacked into the internets and here I am, Bleeeat!

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What don't you understand? The BB was merely a transitional event that occured 13.7 billion years ago. There is nothing in BB theory that describes ex nihilo creation. Your understanding of what you think is currently accepted by physicists is completely incorrect. Completely and totally incorrect.

Sorry you lose here. You don't decide what's true by science, science decides whats true by science. If you speak the truth then science would have recognized and proven your hypothesis true enough to become theory and further scrutinized and proven more true. So either you say science has conspiracy to block your knowledge of pre bang singularity or you have failed.

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It appears you therefore need more I shall show you precisely how we determine BB cosmology. Please observe. Perhaps if you understand how we determine modern cosmology, you shall understand what we think about it:

The first person to determine that the universe was expanding was Hubble. The universe is expanding in size, which means, Hubble realized, that it had a moment where it was of infinitely small volume, hence infinite density, which expanded outwards from a point, which cosmologists called the Big Bang. Hubble's constant is called H, and we determine it by examining redshift. The color of light depends on its wavelength, and red has a longer wavelength than white light. Since the universe is expanding, all the galaxies are moving away from each other, which means that when we observe them, they should have a longer wavelength of emitted photons, since the acceleration away from us causes the wavelength of the light to expand (like an accordian). Measuring the redshift by measuring the distance of astronomical objects allows us to determine the rate of acceleration of expansion of the universe.

Uh ok you failed to mention that the Universe is not expanding in constant rate it is increasing in it's expansion rate, that is not constant. If you took into account the ever increasing expansion rate of the universe as your constant H then it's correct but you didn't say that here, I had to bring it to your attention. Also I don't know but is there a predictable expansion rate to the universe or it can't be predicted but only observed that it's increasing faster? I don't know about this, elightned meh.

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When we examine distant galaxies, we discover they are moving away from us at a calculable rate. Based on the distance they are from us, the wavelength of light from them which we are observing also changes by a calculable amount. The recessional velocity (the speed at which other galaxies are moving away from us), the distance which galaxies are from us, the redshift, or change in wavelength as a result of this recession and distance, and lastly, the acceleration or the rate at which the velocity is increasing, are all linked by several simple equations, and from this we can easily determine the age of the universe, or rather, how long ago the point was that there was no distance between the two receding bodies, the moment of the Big Bang. Firstly,

v=HD

Does v=HD take into account that variable speed at which the universe is expanding? The universe is ever faster expanding and it will continue to do so even at past the speed of light. If so was the increasing expansion rate steadily getting faster or better question to ask is it predictable the increasing expansion speed. Kind of same question I just asked last.

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This is the simplest equation we must understand. The recessional velocity (the speed at which a body is moving from Earth) is directly proportional to the distance it is from us. What connects them is Hubble’s constant, which is exactly what we need to find out.

Omega: That the universe is expanding depends on the density of the universe, and the two constants associated, Omega (Ω) and Lambda (&lambda. This is not to be confused with Lambda in physics, which represents wavelength. In cosmology it has another meaning. At any rate, Newton’s equations, which work perfectly until they disintegrate at the quantum level, dictate that all material bodies have a force of attraction between them which is precisely proportional to the inverse square of the distance between them and the size of the body in question. This is Newton’s Inverse Square Law. Since Einsten’s General Relativity, we have understood that this works because gravity is caused by the distorting effect of material on spacetime, However, surely this means that all material bodies should quickly rush towards each other and crush into a fiery pinprick? No. The reason for this is because the universe, as in space-time itself, is expanding. As we have discovered, the universe is expanding due to Dark matter. Now, this is where Omega comes into play. The density of matter in the universe will determine Omega. Since all material bodies attract, and the expansion of space time forces them apart, there is a fight between Dark Energy and matter, and the density of matter over the universe will determine its ultimate fate.

Again is the rate of acceleration of the universe taking into account for H?

Newtons equations don't work perfectly they are not accurate enough for scales of very small and very fast. Newtons laws are fine when your dealing with large slow moving objects such as in the Apollo missions when man tried to land on the moon. It was accurate enough to make predictions on ETA and positioning. But when you get to the very small and fast Newtons laws become innacurate and will net you wrong results. Remember the expansion rate of the Universe if it was 1 billionth of a billionth too slow it would have recollasped if it was 1 billionth of a billionth too fast it would have expanded too fast for star formation. This right here tells me that if you're using newtons equations to predict expansion rate of the universe you will get the wrong results this rendering your entire calculation in error. You need to use general law of relativity for your calculations especially when you regress further back in time nearing the bang singularity.

If Omega is precisely zero, then the acceleration of the universe and the gravity of matter will be in precise equilibrium and thus the universe will expand at a precise constant rate. If Omega is smaller than one then the expansion of the universe will wind down, and if it is precisely one, the universe will simply wind down and stop expanding, and if Omega is greater than one, then the density of matter will be overpowering and the universe will accelerate and then crush back into a fiery pinprick, as the universe rushes backwards into a fiery pinprick by parabolic expansion and then contraction.

We have discovered by means of measuring the redshift of supernovae, that none of these things are happening. The universe is not constantly expanding, decelerating, or contracting. In fact, it is accelerating in expansion, which is given by the dotted line on the graph marked accelerating.

blah this is what I get for responding paragraph by paragraph I get to jump the gun hehe. Ok so you do know the Universe is ever expanding a greater speeds. Did you include this in your equations? I guess I will see.

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The Metric Expansion of Space: this is the most accurate and current model of the universe to date. The expansion of space-time overpowers gravity and hence accelerates in expansion. We can determine the rate at which space-time accelerates using Hubble’s constant. Then, by extrapolating backwards, we can determine the precise time at which the universe began to expand, in other words, if we have the value of acceleration of the universe, we can work backwards and determine the moment of creation, that will be the origin or the singularity on that graph, when the distance between all material beings was negligible, in other words, we can work out when the Big Bang occurred.

Ok so you're saying you did include the variable expnasion rate of the universe if your equation. I know that the expansion rate was never steady and one can only observe that expansion rate today. How do you know how fast it was expanding before you there to witness it? Science says the universe is about 13.4 billion years old no one knows for sure excatly how old it is. Are you suggesting that you can find the excat age of the universe using your equations or is there a fuzziness allowing for margins greater then hundreds of millions of years + or -? If there is a fuzziness I would like to see how this fuzziness won't fudge up your hypothesis that there was energy prior to the big bang.

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The next principle we must understand is z, z is the change in wavelength as observed due to the recession of galaxies. It is defined as( λemitted x λobserved/λemitted). There are simple equations which link v, z, and H, but they only work for close galaxies. When the galaxies measured are too distant, any model which uses z for estimation of Hubble’s parameter must detail the precise change in z, D, and H due to the fact that the light has taken so long to get to Earth. But for close galaxies, these paramaters will not have changed much, so we can estimate v using v=zc, where c is the speed of light. We will not be doing this. For one, close galaxies blueshift due to gravity, which also, obviously, totally distorts any result we may glean by cosmological redshift. For galaxies which are far away, those which we measure redshift, it is possible to input the results into a more precise formula, which helps distinguish Cosmological and gravitational redshift.

 There are multiple ways, as we have seen, to express Hubble’s constant: As functions of velocity, distance, the FLRW metric, and z. As of 2007, all expressive functions of H are in concurrence. It is definitely between 50-90, and precisely where was hotly debated for some time. Now our equipment is very accurate and we have narrowed it down significantly and the best data indicates it is 71.

The question for me now is allowing for your error of margin how will that effect your pre bang singularity energy. Current data says it's 70.8 give or take 1.6. There is plenty of room for error thus showing your equations will NOT result in accurate data. I guess you're saying excate data is not needed to prove your pre energy hypothesis.

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We need to find q, that is the parameter of acceleration, and in terms of Hubble’s constant, it is:

Q=-H^-2((dH/dt)+H^2)

Now, we have known since 1998 that q is a negative value, and this value must be integrated (not figuratively, as in literally integrated mathematically by means of the ∫ operator), and extrapolate from when the commoving horizon was zero, the moment of the Big Bang.

It is useful to know the 71km/s/Mpc value because it allows us our extrapolation. It allows us to calculate useful values like the Hubble length and the Hubble time. The Hubble lengths is a good value to work with, and is simply the c/Hubble Time, where the Hubble Time is 1/H0. These are crude ways to measure the age of the universe, but are helpful if you want to demonstrate the age of the universe using a calculator and a pen and a data table as opposed to a satellite. If Hubble length is c/H(t), where H(t)=1/H, then H(l)=Htc, which is 300,000/71=approximately 4220 Mpc, since we are working in km/s/Mpc. 4220Mpc is converted into light years by the fact that 1 Megaparsec is 3,262,000 light years, from which we derive: 1.37x10^10 light years or 13.7 billion ly.

Hubble Time is also useful as a rough estimate of the universe's age. The Hubble Time is a useful function of the recessional velocity, where if v=HD, then 1/H=d/v. Since it is a reciprocal, we have to reverse all of the units, and so (converting 71km/s/Mpc to 20km/s/Mly makes it easier), we have to reverse everything, so we end up with 10^6 light years per megalight year, and 9.5x10^12 km per light year, which can be demonstrated like this:

1 Light Second= 300,000km, one light year=3x10^5 x 60 x 60x 24 x 365=9.5x10^12km

The reason we need to add the 10^6 is because the second reciprocal has been changed to km/ly as opposed to km/Mly. This just makes it a lot easier. And since the H constant is in seconds, we need to express the function in seconds. One year contains 3.15x10^7 seconds Now:

 1/20x10^6x9.5x10^12x 1/3.15x10^7, which becomes roughly 1.45x10^10 years, or 14.5 billion years. As you can see, this is a crude method, but is good for quick calculation.

Back to redshift:

 For cosmological redshift, the formula given is:

1+z= (anow/athen).

a is the universe scale factor. The physical distance between commoving objects is given by L=λa(t), which is rearranged to give a(t)= L/λ

This can be expressed via Hubble’s Law (distance proportional to redshift) using this formula:

H=a2(t)/a1(t), where t is the time derivative of the equation

blah see this is where you lost me. I'm not a physics professor and from what I do know about physics is that this is some amatuer physics. Those calculations of yours I can't get into because I don't have the knowledge for this and quite honestly I don't freaking want to! This crap bores the hell out of me and this is the kind of science Dawkins talks about that turns people off. The beakers and bunsen burner science. I'm not saying this isn't important, I mean it's very important lol because the devil is in the details but this is not necessary in this debate if your hypothesis is false to begin with. I would like to get this over with and look at your finale data. I will read carefully of course but when it comes to this kind of math I can't comment on it.

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If the wavelength of light which we receive from a star is twice its original wavelength, that means that the universe in terms of space-time has doubled in size since that photon left the body which emitted it. This is because cosmological redshift is caused by the expansion of space-time itself, which stretches the wavelength of light being emitted over long distances.

 We are beginning to see how the expansion of the universe, redshift, wavelength, the distance and recessional velocities of galaxies and the time taken for this to occur all tie together and all converge to give us the age of the universe. a or the scale factor is a simple ratio of wavelength emitted: wavelength received, which allows us to account for the change over large times. If the wavelength of light which we receive from a star is twice its original wavelength, that means that the universe in terms of space-time has doubled in size since that photon left the body which emitted it. This is because cosmological redshift is caused by the expansion of space-time itself, which stretches the wavelength of light being emitted over long distances.

Using our newfound understanding of Hubble's constant and redshift, we can understand how we determine the BB, and in turn, this helps us appreciate what the BB. What we have done is simply extrapolate backwards, just like the graph shows.

ok sounds good and I think this is where your hypothesis will fall apart. I will be jumping the gun again as I read and reply piece by piece but it sounded like because you can determine the age of the universe can you can determine it had energy before it banged? Eh I don't know but we will see.

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The cosmic background radiation is the most distant and old thing that humans have ever observed. The universe was initially opaque but as it cooled and spread out, it became black roughly 380,000 years After The Big Bang. The microwave background, in other words, is a picture of what the entire universe looked like just moments after the transition, and a COBE photograph of it was taken by spectroscopes and microwave radiation probes by a device called the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe. This is a picture of what the entire universe looked like just after BB (and by "just" I mean 3.8x10^5 years).

Bearing our newfound understanding of the BB in mind, we can discuss possible theories of the manner in which it occured. Keep in mind that what I am presenting is hypothetical, and at the forefront of modern physics.

Hypothetical yes forefront... lol its relative. Forefront is misleading because it lends an air of credibility it doesn't deserve in the eyes of science. Oh it's at the front all right but look how far back that front is. A very distant forefront indeed.

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With our understanding of Hubble's Law and background radiation, we can provide a much better definition of the BB:

 All the Big Bang theory states is that the universe expanded outwards 13.7 billion years ago from a very dense, extremely low entropy prior state. Many theists miscontrue the Big Bang as ex nihilo, "out of nothing". It is not the case. There are certain models postulating pre-Big Bang occurances, the boundary condition in Hartele-Hawking, brane cosmology, etc. But the BB itself says nothing about the creation of the universe. It simply describes an expansion occurance 13.7 billion years ago from a prior state, and the model describes occurances from the Planck time onwards from this prior state, that we can describe events from the Planck Time until the end of BB nucleosynthesis.There is absolutely nothing, repeat nothing whatsoever, in modern physics, that states, hints, or even implies the possibiltiy of ex nihilo creation, or the idea that energy was "created" in the literal sense. Physics is all about transitions, changes of state. That's what the Big Bang was, a change of state. The prior state is a mystery, but the current state is as described. Four distinct forces, gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear bonding governing the interaction between material bodies. This is our current universe, and absolutely every single thing that inhabits this universe is a direct consequence of one or more of these forces.

And here we are at the crux of your argument. You know you could have spared us the details of how we arrived at the conclusion that the universe is probably 13.7 billion years old. Well here is where your hypothesis fails and I will point out why.

You're assuming a prior state of energy because physcis is about transitions and your 100% correct. That is not the problem. The problem is you're ASSUMING that the laws of physics existed outside of the universe. There is absolutely no evidence this is true at all. In fact the default position science takes is that nothing existed prior to the big bang. Every thing else is a hypothesis including the brane hypothesis. Look you can't escape the fact that universe came from outside itself including it's own laws.

I think you're stuck in some catch 22 you're blind to see. Isn't it proof enough for you that the laws of physics don't exist prior to the Universe. Look at the plank barrier doesn't that show you that the laws of physics can't exist when the very forces of nature are not present? I think you're looking at this backwards something is iffy with your train of thought here. We also have the quantum world where you laws of physics you used to decribe the BB don't exist the way they are isn't that more proof to you that the laws of physics are only present in our classical view of our universe? So I don't get where you fathom the idea that the very physics you use to decribe the BB prexisted the BB itself. What the hell? I'll read on maybe there is more to what you say.

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Knowing that we now have a much more precise definition of BB theory now, we may continue. The gist is that all the BB says is that the universe expanded from a symmetrical low entropy state which may have been a false vacuum which inflated, via which the force disengagement could have been created and matter could form since it is no longer too excited below Planck temperature.

You didn't change the definition of the BB you just assumed it's a transition event. Again there is no evidence it was a transition we just have hypothesis. The only thing BB tells us is that it was there and it was a certain way beyond our laws we pegged the universe with and it expanded and cooled to eventually become the Universe we know and love. You're just adding new data with out the proofs.

You're proposing the false vacuum hypothesis to explain the origin of the BB. Again it's only a hypothesis and not fact and I don't see how you can claim any thing as fact with out the proof. Can a false vacuum exist outside of our dimension of space time? We can only observe that it exists with in our universe not outside of it. Yes virtual particles do appear to come out of nothing but that's all with in our dimension on this universe of this space time. We already have unseen forces at work such as dark matter and dark energy “bubbling” away doing it's thing. Virtual particles from false vacuum is a natural product of our Universe as is dark energy or matter. Can false vacuums exist outside of our Universe and it's forces at work. Can any kind of material force exist outside the Universe? We don't know but to suggest yes and to further suggest it created the BB is total speculation.

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According to this formula: Tp=mpc^2/k=r(hr)c^5/Gk^2, matter breaks down at the Planck Temperature, 10^32K. It is nonsense to speak of matter being "hotter" since temperature is a measure of particle kinetics. In the low-entropy state, there wasn't any matter, it becomes interchangeable with energy.

Alan Guth, the founder of the inflationary hypothesis, points out that the actual matter/energy content of the universe may be very low (or leaving aside fluctuations from the broken symmetry, essentially zero) because the false vacuum from which the universe as we understand it is conjectured to have come has negative energy, which cancels out the huge positive total of the energy present in the universe. He pointed out that since matter is interchangeable with energy and vice-versa, the universe could have started out of a quantum tunneling event which broke the false vacuum (which, being that it is of absolutely perfect symmetry, has nearly zero entropy, and is hence an extremely unstable state with singularity properties), and released a huge tide of positive energy, canceling out the negative energy, albeit not with perfect symmetry, we still see a small excess of energy (symmetry breaking is poorly understood). It should be noted, however, that Guth's original inflation has been superseded by Russian Physicist Andre Linde's Chaotic Inflation. At any rate, the purpose of inflation is to solve a relatively large problem associated with the universe. It is isotropic and homogeneous. Yet, according to the Big Bang, it should be very curved and non-homogenous. If inflation's rate of initial expansion were correct, then the problem would disappear since the ration of spatiotemporal expansion is so fast that the curvature of the original universe smooths very quickly, on the order of the Planck era. However, this quantum tunnelling event clearly would violate the laws of thermodynamics. This is acceptable though, since it is only for 10^-45 seconds, much less than even one Planck second, and such small, unpredictable events are allowable only for the tiniest intervals of time at the microcosmic level (actually, they are demonstratable with the Casimir effect, as

If you recognize this is hypothesis why are you so certain to claim that the BB was a transitional event rather then a creation event? About breaking the 2nd law it doesn't matter there was no 2nd law pre BB so I'm not concerned with that. I've heard about this hypothesis though not much about it. I hear more about brane hypothesis which I personally like better but I know it's only a hypothesis.

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We need to understand spontaneous breaking, which relates more to SLOT than to FLOT. Imagine a dam holding back water. This dam is perched on top of a hill blocking a river. If the dam was not there the water would naturally take the path of least resistance and flow downhill. SImple. The water has progressed to a lower energy state, as nature commands. But with the dam there, the water cannot flow downhill. Nonetheless, the water cannot get over the dam, and thus, even though the water is not in its lowest energy state, the arrangement is relatively stable. It is for this same reason that organisms, which are extremely far from chemical equilibirum, do not spontaneously combust. This is the principle of SLOT: Things fall to their lowest energy state. A ball perched on top of a high wall is at a higher energy state than one on the floor. Water being held back by a dam is at a higher and hence more unstable energy state than water which flows freely according to the path of least resistence. SLOT dictates that all things fall towards their lowest energy state, hence: If the dam is cracked and bursts, the water will flow from the false vacuum, the dam, to the true vacuum, the water. This false vacuum may have been the original state of the universe. We also call it a singularity. A singularity is a point where mathematical relationship is not defined.

Hmm I understand what you say but I look at it differently and I don't know which is more valid, let me explain. The ball on top of shelf has more potential energy but not stored energy then the ball at rest on floor. They both have same mass and energies but ball of shelf has more potential energy because it can fall down but that energy is not inherit to the ball itself. The energy will be from kinetic energy from gravity acting on the ball. Am I seeing this wrong? Or energy states are not inherit on the object but outside of it?

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The universe is believed to have been born out of a singularity after a false vacuum fluctuation, when all the essential forces were unified into one. As the four forces are unified into one, there is no coherent mathematical relationship, also called a singularity. This arrangement is extremely unstable, and as it spiralled asymptotically towards infinity and zero (because it has no mass), it breaks like a dam bursts, and the more stable arrangement (the four forces are broken) is born. The universe today is like a broken mirror, with the four forces ruling it disjointed and separate from each other. This is because the original vacuum arrangement is unstable. It broke, and from it gushed the true vacuum- the universe. This unified state, the vacuum arrangement. Since the false vacuum is unstable, in terms of SLOT, things fall to their lowest energy state and the symmetry is broken. Hence, the universe may have begun with no entropy, and progressed downwards from there. In this state of perfect and absolute symmetry, existence as we understand it would be nonsensical, and being that such a state is incredibly unstable, it would take only the tiniest fluctuation to break the vacuum, and then, by SLOT, the symmetry would break, and from this would spring forth existence as we understand it, with four seperate physical forces.

Ok I don't know why you said it but the universe is NOT believed to be the BB after a false vacuum it's all hypothesis one of many and one that is not more leading then others. Because we can create a false vacuum in small spaces doesn't mean a false vacuum can exist outside the laws that govern it. Science is silent about this because it can't say more yes or more no that false vacuum can exist outside the laws that govern it.

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A symmetry in physics equations is generated by the ability to interchange expressions in an equation. Thanks to Weinberg and Salam, we can interchange all three leptons in an electric field, which gives it SU(3) symmetry. The ruling of the universe is dictated by SU(3) x SU(2) x U(1) symmetry, regarding the simplest particles that make up the universe. In the singularity during the Planck era of the universe (10^-43 seconds), the collapse of the false vacuum led to the breaking of the symmetry from SU(5) to what we see today. Symmetry breaking is not properly understood, and very difficult to solve. Whatever caused the false vacuum fluctation, the symmetry broke. Gravity was the first force to disengage, giving a SU(4) x U(1) symmetry. The breaking off of the other three, including electromagnetism, generated the asymmetry we see today, which explains why the electron has a negative charge (the electromagnetic force). There was no charge in the symmetry. None at all. Being that the universe iwas orignally in a state of symmetry, there is no charge in the entire universe. The electromagnetic force works both ways, it attracts and it repels (unlike gravity, which is purely attractive). It's attraction/repulsion is very, very precisely balanced, to the tune of 10^-32 electron volts difference, which is probably experimental error. This is good because the electromagnetic force is tremendously powerful, almost 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times more powerful than gravity (this explains why you can cancel the entire gravity of the Earth by picking up bits of paper with the static electricty of your comb). And that means that if the electromagnetic force was any less balanced, you would be ripped to shreds instantly.

By the way can the False vacuum hypothesis account for the finely tuned universe? What is the mechanism in the false vacuum that precisly balance the forces of the universe to allow intelligent beings like us to ask the question in the first place.

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This does not violate special relativity since empty space has no information. To explain the beginning of the universe, both Guth and Linde to negative-pressure driven quantum vacuum fluctuations to circumvent the First Law of Thermodynamics (not break it), since a true vacuum has a negative energy total, which means that the net energy total of the entire universe is zero, or rather, absurdly close to zero to account for quantum fluctuations. Quantum fluctuations in the Planck era give birth to large scale structures in the Universe (this is demonstratable).For now I simply wish to explain how cosmologists overcome the First Law of Thermodynamics. The negative vacuum pressure effect is demonstrated by the Casimir effect, which relies on the generation of virtual quantum field particles which flit in and out of existence. We can demonstrate the Casimir effect. However, the technology to recreate this is far beyond us, as it would mean creating two metal bolts on the order of the Planck length in separation. The symmetry breaking of inflation Su(1)xSU(2)xSU(3) is the subject of another essay. For now I must continue with my explanation of how Inflation complies with thermodynamics, since it appeals to false-vacuum collapse, which is fully compliant with the first and second laws. A false vacuum is highly unstable due to the quantum field effect, and basic entropy mechanistic probabilities dictate that it will collapse. The creation of a true vacuum is in accordance with basic free energy decay mechanics in entropy. The Casimir effect shows that such virtual quantum particles can destroy the vacuum, and they exist plentifully where nothing else does, but only for periods of time on the order of the Planck length. This does not violate Thermodynamics since it is an extremely short lived and extremely tiny quantum effect. This is verifiable. Quantum virtual particles exist in the vacuum, and they would act as the trigger to destroy the negative energy vacuum, from which the true vacuum and hence matter and energy may spring forth. Guth’s original problem was solved by Linde, where the false vacuum fluctuations would generate many different inflating regions of space time called “bubbles”.

Empty space has no information, doesn't that punch a hole in your hypothesis? Then where did the information inside the false vacuum come from in the first place? The space inside and around the BB expansion was space with no information which is why speeds faster then the speed of light is possible? This doesn't compute. The space in and around the BB expansion was not informationless obviously. Also the expansion of the Universe will reach speeds faster then the speed of light and there in plenty of information in space time.

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The problem is that the theory necessitates the nucleation of the bubbles (imagine it as analogous to heating water on a stove). While the collapse of a false vacuum would dictate that the expansion of the space between the bubbles would multiply logarithmically faster than the actual bubbles themselves. The universe would expand extremely rapidly, but it would never stop in Guth’s model. Inflation necessitated an extremely fast, but extremely short burst. Guth’s model had no way to wind down the inflation. Linde’s solution was that the expansion which triggered the universe was originally very slow, and accelerated in a scalar-field to become competitively fast compared to actual expansion of space time, and when it does, inflation stops, so the bubbles nucleate and thus the universe heats. For the purpose of this exercise, it becomes necessary to merge inflation with quantum cosmology. The original symmetry would have been broken as a trigger to inflation, and the negative energy associated with the vacuum would have been cancelled by the collapse (Since it is mechanistically so unstable. This means that matter, may arise). Note this is not an explanation of the philosophical problem of why the universe exists, since we have to include things existing before the univirse, the inflaton, the scalar field, etc. but it is a solution to how matter may form without contradicting the first law of thermodynamics. Note that your solution would contradict the FLOT because you believe the universe was created ex nihilo.

This is all on the assumption that physical laws of our Universe can exist indepedantly with out the Universe. Like I said science is on the default position that it can't. Where is your proof that physical laws are independent of our physical universe?

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This is completely incorrect. You are obviously completely unfamiliar with modern cosmology. For fuck's sake, I just spent the last 10,000 words explaining to why this was not the case. If you are unprepared to make your countercase then you can leave and not come back. The falsehood of your above assertion was precisely the point I was trying to get through your thick idiotic skull. I presented the ideas of the physics community. I did not present my own super-clever new ideas. What don't you understand about this?  If there was nothing prior to the BB, our existence would contradict the first law of thermodynamics, and if this was shown, it would cause the biggest revolution in physics since Newton!

Those 10,000 words where all pure HYPOTHESIS! You can't come here and claim based on that, that you have the proof the universe is from a transition of a prior state instead of being created. The False Vacuum hypothesis not even substance enough to be called a theory of the BB origin. Tell me how can claim a hypothesis as a truth statement for science? Not even a Llama does that to prove God. I don't use science to prove God I only see science leaving breadcrumbs leading to God. I see the fingerprints of creator God not scientific fact that God did it.

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Now, I have one final thing to say:

I am not talking to you anymore, unless you meet the following conditions.

1) Write properly. I hate reading your posts because they are strewn with errors of syntax, grammar and spelling. They are very difficult to read.

2) Read, then respond. If you are unprepared to read what your interlocutor writes, you should not be so hasty to write a response.

Do you realize the absurdity of the situation at hand? I have effectively answered your question. Twice. And here you stand, rambling incoherently with piss-poor writing skills, not answering. Why ask a question if you won't acknowledge an answer?

1) I r Llama if j00 doont like it then LOLZ! Pleeze leave and plug that vacuum hole before it farts another universe on top of us.

2) Bleeeat

Ok I read what you had to say and that math part just flew over my head. I'm not skilled in math my skills are in other places that benefit society in different way. The False Vacuum hypothesis is not recognized by the science community to be a plausible answer to origins. But lets take it seriously and imagine it can be a good answer for origins did it answer origin question or did it just regressed a step. Where did the false vacuums come from, don't they exist in space time since it's material which means its somewhere in space also wasting time existing. So what's the origins of the false vacuum, is it another material thing? If it's material it will need a cause if that cause is another material thing then that's the cause of the cause? It will go on forever in a infite regress with out a first cause. Do you believe in infite regress? If you do explain what number effect are we and how we fit as a number in any effect after a chain of infinite causes that by definition don't have a first cause. In other words with out a first cause how do we get our second cause, our third cause and etc. What cause are we in what number are we? Infinite transitions is possible that means we have infinite energies? It raises many questions.

Bleeeat!


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Quote:

I never heard of the bang singularity being one of transition. It's not science books, in the lectures I've seen, this may be the first time I ever heard of this hypothesis. This is why I say what you say is not science because it's not proven to be correct or even leading theory of the bang singularity.

I think there is a more plausible explanation: You are lying. You’ve never done any study into basic Cosmology. It took me five seconds on google to confirm that my definitions, which I’ve used for years, are exactly correct.

From NASA:

The Big Bang Model is a broadly accepted theory for the origin and evolution of our universe. It postulates that 12 to 14 billion years ago, the portion of the universe we can see today was only a few millimeters across. It has since expanded from this hot dense state into the vast and much cooler cosmos we currently inhabit. We can see remnants of this hot dense matter as the now very cold cosmic microwave background radiation which still pervades the universe and is visible to microwave detectors as a uniform glow across the entire sky.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_theory.html

From Wikipedia:

The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe that is best supported by all lines of scientific evidence and observation. The essential idea is that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past and continues to expand to this day. The framework for the model relies on Albert Einstein's General Relativity as formulated by Alexander Friedmann. After Edwin Hubble discovered in 1929 that the distances to far away galaxies were generally proportional to their redshifts, this observation was taken to indicate that all very distant galaxies and clusters have an apparent velocity directly away from our vantage point. The farther away, the higher the apparent velocity.[1] If the distance between galaxy clusters is increasing today, everything must have been closer together in the past. This idea has been considered in detail back in time to extreme densities and temperatures, and large particle accelerators have been built to experiment on and test such conditions, resulting in significant confirmation of the theory. But these accelerators can only probe so far into such high energy regimes. Without any evidence associated with the earliest instant of the expansion, the Big Bang theory cannot and does not provide any explanation for such an initial condition. The theory accurately explains the general evolution of the universe since that instant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

From Me: All the Big Bang theory states is that the universe expanded outwards 13.7 billion years ago from a very dense, extremely low entropy prior state. When we examine distant galaxies, we discover they are moving away from us at a calculable rate. Based on the distance they are from us, the wavelength of light from them which we are observing also changes by a calculable amount. The recessional velocity (the speed at which other galaxies are moving away from us), the distance which galaxies are from us, the redshift, or change in wavelength as a result of this recession and distance, and lastly, the acceleration or the rate at which the velocity is increasing, are all linked by several simple equations, and from this we can easily determine the age of the universe, or rather, how long ago the point was that there was no distance between the two receding bodies, the moment of the Big Bang. Thus, via extrapolation we can determine when the BB occured via extrapolation to the point where the distance between galaxies was negligible.

See. Identical. Totally identical. This essentially invalidates every single thing you say which follows. Everything. You are wrong. Your understanding of what the scientific community believes is totally wrong. Your premise is wrong. You have lost. Admit it. Say it aloud. It’s over. Your understanding of what is entailed by Big Bang Theory was never correct. Please, you ignorant twit, do not tell me "I lose" when you have not the first clue about basic science. If you want to comment on this, you better make damn sure you know precisely what you are talking about. Nowhere in any definition of the BB found in any textbook is the BB described as ex nihilo, or anything other than a transition from initial conditions to present conditions. That is exactly the definition NASA gives above.  So, everything I saidstill stands. Your "refutation" is based on your inability to put this concept through your thick skull.

Now, let us move on to V=HD. In fact, as I already demonstrated, but you didn't read, Hubble and Friedmann did take into account the different scenarios the universe's expansion could undergo, depending on the values of lambda and omega. The various scenarios will determine Hubble's paramater, which I already gave to you, as H changes over time. Now, a simpler way to express q is as:

q=1+H^-1

As we have already seen (or rather, as I already told you) the scale factor, which determines the change in wavelength, is given in the post I already compiled. A more accurate determination of the acceleration parameter is given by Friedmann's equations. But to understand Friedmann's equations, you must understand Einstein's equations. So, if you wish for me to go through the Friedmann equations, I need you to tell me that you do know the Einstein equations.

To put it simply, I think it has been demonstrated that the time when you could comment on what the scientific community thinks has long since past, my friend.

 

 

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Llama
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 Quote:Since you haven't

 

Quote:
Since you haven't addressed my points on cosmology or my repeated points that this is not a revolutionary idea of my own but facts that have been known for 100 years, and that I did not claim to know how the BB occured, but present current hypothetical understanding. Since you cannot grasp this, get the hell out of the thread! You continue to repeat the same things even after I have carefully refuted everything you said! Your assertion is wrong. This is what the scientific community understands by a BB. How can you claim that I am not in agreement with a scientific principle on a matter if you are not even familiar with the matter in question.


 

blah blah blah, your hypothesis is a hypothesis and not even a leading hypothesis. I've heard more about membranes and bubbles universes then vacuum energies expanding. You can't speak with the authority of science by quoting your hypothesis. Me get out of the thread I started?.... why don't you get out and save yourself a hernia.


 

Quote:
I am going to try and hammer this point through your thick morass of unresponsive neurons you call a brain: Nothing I have presented thus far is my own ideas, original research or even groundbreaking! If I want to do original research, I go to a lab, here, my primary purpose is that of an educator. I am not here presenting my own deeply insightful ideas on physics. I am instead educating people on what is already known, most already known for 50 to 100 years! I have not had some clever new thought about the Big Bang or presented a brilliant and hitherto undiscovered proof of a previously unknown principle! I am only presenting the currently accepted view of the physics community. If I have to repeat this one more time, I won't put a bullet through my head, I'll put one through yours!


 

Er I already knew this, I just call it “your hypothesis” because you present it to us. Why you didn't assume this is beyond me, maybe you're too eager to pick a fight with a theist or are under the presumption that theists are intellectually inferior to most atheists. Funny after 100 years your hypothesis is still a hypothesis and not even a leading one. I have to warn you if you're going to shoot me in the head what will likely happen is that the bullet will bounce of my hard skull and penetrate your soft head, Braawwrr!


 

Quote:
You claimed to have done "years" of research. This is clearly false since if you had done years of physics you would understand exactly what I said and agree. You spent 10 minutes on wikipedia and think yourself a fucking expert. Read your interlocutors, or leave! Now, as you can see, I have presented another long, complex response. Read it, or leave. And do not just claim it is not accepted by the scientific community, since you cannot possibly make that judgement since you know nothing about physics.


 

Now I am getting angry and very sick of this. I work hard on my replies. I have given you complex and technical answers on questions pertaining to cosmology, physics and molecular biology. Whenever I reply, you toss insults and simultaneously repeatedly blather the following:


 

I toss insults to you? Are you confusing criticism and difference to your opinion as insults? No let me show you what insults are...


 

Cry me a river, you insolent prick. You ask a complicated question, you get a complicated answer. Deal with it.“


 

a) You're stupid and b) You can't read”


 

Why can't you grasp this? Do you have some reading comprehension problem or are you just retarded?”


 

I am going to try and hammer this point through your thick morass of unresponsive neurons you call a brain”


 

If I have to repeat this one more time, I won't put a bullet through my head, I'll put one through yours!”


 

You spent 10 minutes on wikipedia and think yourself a fucking expert”


 

Those where all said from you to me. I can just imagine my professor speaking to me like that in class because I'm having difficulty understanding a subject forced upon me in which I have no interest in. It will take willpower not smack him in the mouth. Listen I love learning but math is my weakness. When I see formulas I GTFO!


 

Quote:
1. You don't undertstand what I have written

or

  1. You assert that what I have written is "not accepted by the scientific community". Since you are not trained in physics, you cannot possibly know that. You have no idea what is "currently accepted". I have told you over and over and over again, there is not a single thing I have written that is in contradiction with our current understanding of the universe. I have pointed out that your assertion that my points are not accepted by the scientific community is completely incorrect. I have pointed this out over and over and over again. I haven't presented original and brilliant ideas or thought to have conceived the creation of the universe. I have simply described our current understanding of physics and underscored that by the fact that your understanding is completely incorrect. You continually assert, without evidenece, that my view is not accepted (which is utterly false) and that it is incorrect (please demonstrate). You see, I have been formally trained in physics and biology and therefore I really have spent "years of study" on this matter. If you continue to ignore the bulk of my post, my actual answer to your question, which I have worked hard on, and insult me indirectly instead, I will boot you from this thread. Consider this your final warning. If I have to repeat myself one single time more you are gone, you hear me?


 

I'm not trained in physics but I read up on it time to time just for fun. When ever I hear of scientists hypothesizing about the creation of the BB I hear about membranes (from string theory), bubble universe (some speculation black holes are white wholes in other universe and black holes may be responsible for big bangs in other universe), infinite universe (the method of infinite universes is never explained just presumed). I've heard of this False Vacuum theory I believed I read it some where because what you presented to us was not a new idea in my mind. I remember hearing about this somewhere. This is how I know False Vacuum is a relatively unpopular hypothesis. I'm not sharing the halls of academia with other scholors and professors but if science has a hypothesis that is not shared to the public as much as other competing hypothesis then it's safe to assume it's not a leading hypothesis.


 

You going to boot me on a thread I started? I violated no rules and I've been civil but you know what, you pissed me off. This is not the first time some pinhead atheist sets his own rules on a public forum and declare himself fucking lord reagent pissant! Atheist are free thinkers, ROFL what a joke. When ever I see “free thinking” posted by some atheist I laugh out loud and die a little more inside.


 

You know what get me kicked out, I'll wear it as a badge of honor. Do it I really don't care, actually I want you to kick me out. Do me the fucking favor and spare me the time and energy I'll be wasting trying to debunk the atheists faith. And it's a faith because there is no scientific evidence of natural (material) origins. All there is are hypothesis... I can make a hypothesis right now about why I think there is a hole inside every donut. Hypothesis is no substitute to fact or evidence for any thing. I see no evidence for material origins. This is why Atheism is a belief, it's a faith.


 

So please get me kicked out.... free thinkers, buwhahahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

Bleeeat!


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Quote:your hypothesis is a

Quote:

your hypothesis is a hypothesis

See the post I just wrote above. You are wrong. Hence your argument (which is based wholly on the assumption above) collapses.

QED

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Is this guy even worth

Is this guy even worth responding to anymore (or was he ever really to be honest?)


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He isn't worth the effort,

He isn't worth the effort, Matt. A more constructive use of time is teaching a brick how to fish.


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Llama wrote: Those where

Llama wrote:

 

Those where all said from you to me. I can just imagine my professor speaking to me like that in class because I'm having difficulty understanding a subject forced upon me in which I have no interest in. It will take willpower not smack him in the mouth. Listen I love learning but math is my weakness. When I see formulas I GTFO!


 

 

Then suffice it simply to say, Llama that what you refer to in your OP is your limited knowledge of arithmetic, not mathematics. And you have conflated them. there is a lot more to mathematics than you have shown yourself capable of understanding and likewise a lot more to the science on the origin of the universe.

Not being able to understand it is not a crime or a wrong on your behalf, but attempting to refute what you do not understand is, indeed, your folly which is trying the patience of the others in this thread.

You might show some restraint yourself by not misapprehending your claims of knowledge about the subjects you are discussing, or simply admitting the mistakes you have made when you have done that. 

 

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He is obviously very

He is obviously very dishonest. First he said he studied physics then we get this:

Math is his weakness (no way you can be well versed in physics without a decent understanding of probably at LEAST Trigonometry.)

 

And then a direct contradiction of having studied Physics a few posts above. Does Jesus like when you lie?

 

 

 

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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Let me see if I can

Let me see if I can understand what Llama has said so far:

1. He has studied physics for years.

2. But he is terrible at math. Math is his "weakness"

3. And, he only "learns about these things for fun in his spare time".

I'm seeing a contradiction here. (1) and (2) are contradictory. So are (1) and (3). You won't be able to understand the physics we (read: I) am currently discussing without understanding the following:

-Vectors, scalars and tensors, trigonometry and logarithsm matrices, functions, probability distributions, calculus (including and not limited to differentiation, bounded integration and antidifferentiation, partial differentiation, surface, contour and volume integration, rate functions, chain, quotient and products and del operations, and calculus with logarithms and trigonometry), statistical mechanics and imaginary and complex number

Sorry. There is no way out of this. If you don't like math, if you don't like formulas, if you don't understand mathematics, you will never ever ever have a good understanding of physics. End of story.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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To the Opening Post Dogma

Hey brother Llama, ( try atheism/pantheism/buddhism/taoism .... gawed will be proud ....> YOU

Dogma shits on the Truth .... Truth does not set you free, as you have already been "condemned to be free" ..... Sorry, no "sky daddy" has ever been revealed .... That's not to say Jesus and You and I aren't "GAWED"! ... of course we are ! All is ONE.

 ..... God of abe, and Jesus, and even Buddha too, OBVIOUSLY got perverted into stinky foul dogma shit ..... all the "DEVIL" of wrong separatist thinking is why. Xains are sick, meaning wrong .... HELP THEM, don't abandon the sick ..... Put love (understanding) on them.

               Feel the Awe, Tell no Lies 

"Condemned to be Free" ~ Sartre

http://atheism.about.com/od/existentialistthemes/a/abandonment.htm