This is a good question. A variation is one my dad always posed. If you were inside your cabin and one of your kids is outside and you are surrounded by indians (no offense) do you open up the door and risk everyone getting killed or do you let them kill your kid outside to save the others. His answer was dont open the door. My answer is that it doesnt matter what you do. There is no right answer. It matters more why you did it. God judges the heart of that situation. So, responding to the first question, obviously christians would say God wouldnt tell you to murder. But change it to an abortion clinic doctor or you're wife as an abortion clinic doctor to make it more realistic. (But you'll have to actually think of a really good situation to get people to answer this.) I think I'd be worried if I "knew" it was God that I was really psychotic. There would have to be some kind of confirmation and exigency that by not doing it something really bad will happen. There may be some situation that its justifiable homocide, and not murder. Remember, God wanted Abe to know that he had faith. God already knew that he would do it.

Theres also a story of having a choice to save only one (like from drowning) and the christian has to pick his kid or a nonbeliever friend, so he picks the nonbeliever to save him from hell (who grows up to be the minister telling the story...)  When posed like that it is less difficult to answer and more difficult to be honest.

Then there is a really tough one. The nazis come to your door and ask you where this dissenter is and they are going to kill you if you dont tell them. They know you know. They are going to wait with you until they find him. Its either him or you. And he's not a relative, just some schmo. What do you do? This is a question for anyone who thinks they are a good person.

Yes. There aren't any black and white statements!

But seriously, we all argue about that concept so much. But, in practice, dont we know what the right thing to do is like 90% of the time?  There's a difference between "there are no absolutes, so whatever I do is right" and "I am not sure about this, but I'm going to try to do whats right". Its "not caring about truth" vs "striving for approximate truth."  Just because we have these fringe counterexamples that rarely happen doesnt mean anything either way. We all pretty much know right vs. wrong most of the time but still do whatever we can that we think we'll get away with. Even if we each had our own moral code, we would change it to fit our circumstances, albeit sometimes slowly enough to not notice. Even if I think I'm following a universal morality, I wont totally. Its impossible. So in the end whether morals are absolute or relative, we're still stuck with the same problems. It doesnt solve anything in practice for that other 10%.

Yes, I dont like the concept of hell either. But neither am I one who is likely to try to dispense justice to all and right every wrong ever made.  Some say God still loves you in hell and thats the metaphorical flames, knowing God loves you but you chose to be separate from God. (Similar to heaping hot coals on your enemies). Some say hell was meant for satan and his angels who arent sensate beings so torture is not the same. Anyway, we are punished for our sins not for or unbelief. God gives us many many chances to draw close to him and even if we had one more after we are dead, many would still decline. When you create beings with free will, many will choose not to love you. After having a kid, I can understand this better now.  I dont belief in the one fits all torture chamber of hell. Each persons experience of heaven or hell will be tailor made for them given their deeds on earth. Ultimately, God will be fair. So the real question is how is anyone saved from themselves? We all deserve some punishment. Noone really knows what it means to serve God completely.

I know the next question is always "why do we have to kiss Gods ass and tell him how great he is and ask to not go to hell." First, to ask for salvation you have to be willing to believe that he has the power to give it. That is all that is required. To be willing to believe. Second, That doesnt undo your whole life up til now. You have to live with some consequences for eternity. It is very unlikely that someone like a hitler will all of a sudden say yeah I want to serve God for all eternity now cuz Im gonna die. Its not about pain avoidance. Its about where you really want to go. And hell is not that bad. Its the best place to be for those who do not want to serve God. BTW I would be happy to just serve God as the angels do, but we are adopted into the family which is way more than we deserve. But if you are an ex-christian, you know all this already so maybe I dont really understand your question.

If my child chooses to be a serial killer, assuming it is not my fault, they will face all responsibility. I would feel bad about it, but what could I do about it besides lock them in a room so they dont hurt anyone. Thats what hell is, jail. Im sure some peoples punishment will be bad. But youre a good person, right? What could God punish you for? Why even argue about it?

Again, all supernatural explanations have to be metaphorical since we dont have a definition that we can agree on for supernatural.  I just dont see how you can bash christianity when it takes the bible literally AND then bash it for when it does not take the bible literally. Thats cherry picking too.  Obviously, some interpretations are more of a stretch than others. But everyone is free to make their own, arent they? You can always find someone who will agree with you. Sure theres adhocism. What do you expect when there are no repeatable tests to make God do miracles when you want them? Even if jesus came today, everyone would say it was a scam, camera tricks, hypnosis, magic. There is no way around it.

I like it too. Remember, no matter what they tell you, I am a true scotsman.

First he tells to kill (the Abraham's son, the unbelievers, the Kanaanites) and then not to kill (10 laws), and then to love others unconditionally (how Jesus said), so where's the truth?
It definitely looks like the program had bugs and God released some patches, so I'd prefer the latest, patched version. Anything other is either an old version, a computer virus, or some hacker.

It always puzzles me when I hear of agressive Christians, either destroying a radio station they don't like, or fighting to death in Ireland. After the latest Jesus' upgrade, this software should be totally non-violent and compatible with other versions, but it isn't always so. Organized religion looks like some sort of Microsoft, as for infalliability of their product.

 

 

 

I never personally met one but they definitely exist - mainly in the southern rural US. There was recently a news story about a preacher who was arrested for having a bunch of them. Every so often you hear about one of these idiots dying.

 

Story:   http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/14669

 

If I knew 100% it was God speaking then 100% yes I would kill my whole family.

Well that's crazy and/or evil. The moral thing for Abraham/Jeptha to have done was refuse and say "You may have the might but you don't have the right."

[quote]If I knew 100% it was God speaking then 100% yes I would kill my whole family.[/quote]

And this, Ladies and Gentlemen, is a theist who understands the truth.  If morality comes from god, then there IS NO SUCH THING AS MORALITY.

The only thing we can hope is that theists don't actually use this twisted logic, because if they did, it could really cause some nastiness...

 

Well... so much for that idea...