Or he was looking for it and it wasn't there...

Looks like another case of "You have to buy my product before I can describe it to you. Oh and all sales are final."

What you describe as 'truth' is a metaphor that is a rhetorical, and hyperbolic fallacy device insidiously used by dogmatists and preachers, to 'hypnotize' weak minded minions, and is used interchangeably with 'faith', and 'belief' which are used interchangeably with 'hope'.

You have a 'hope'?

Good for fcuking you.

Now piss off, and go into your own corner and jerk off to the god you 'hope' is there.

And leave us the fcuk out of what you 'hope' is reality.

'Facts' and 'Truth' are not interchangeable for your misappropriation of the word 'truth', and dishonest bastardization of the english language.

So stop pissing in peoples' ears, and telling them that it's raining.

The god you worship would be the biggest and most powerless pvssy ever to exist, if he were real.

He'd call for my blood to be spilt.

But that ain't gonna happen, if society keeps doing it's job, and pushes forward even further with secularism, and puts dogma back into the voodoo caves where it belongs.

Society just placates dogmatics, and establishes a more rational means of co-existing, and evolving as a species.

Your god does not rule in North America.

The courts do.

We've won.

And we're not going back to voodoo.

Ever.

Deal with it...

a God that allows people to make their own choices.  What a terrible concept!

let's put it this way, there's no fence here, would you like to have choice or no choice.  No choice, you're miserable, but no wrong happens in the world, choice, you're happy because you can do what you want and pay natural consequences, cause others harm, and there's problems in the world because people make dumb choices.  

If God chose to stop the bad you're describing, then he would also have to not allow you to say anything negative about him, or not believe in him regardless of your perspective or thoughts.  

you want to blame God for wrongs like above.  Why not look at the person first?  What choices did that father make before crashing his car with his son in it... Was he drinking.  Should God intervene if he's stupid enough to drink then drive with his son?  that would be a choice the father made, yes his son pays the consequences, but then again, who suffers more, the son who drowned, or the father who has to live with the knowledge that he killed his own son for the rest of his life?   

your examples are great, but to assume God having a good heart and conscience would intervene for every stupid choice a person makes in the world is ignorant.  God being a good hearted loving God would allow you to make a choice, then reap the consequences in life or live it as a life lesson for others.  Are you angry at God because people get raped, or are you angry at the rapist?  Assuming God is real.

If you're angry at God, then you're telling me the rapist is innocent because God allowed him to do it and that makes it ok for him.  If you're angry at the rapist, then you understand that God had nothing to do with it and has no blame in the situation and that it was completely on the rapists shoulders to make that choice and to ruin another persons life.   Again, there's no fence here, either God is at fault for allowing it to happen, or the rapist is at fault, can't be both.  

that's your idea of what happens.  You're looking at God as if we need him to protect us.  or that we need him for explaining things.  You keep claiming you don't need God to understand things.  i don't disagree with you.

Read Revelation.  Are you sure he sits with folded arms, or is everyone who does wrong on probation until judgement is passed?  You are the same person who complained that God was evil for destroying people in the OT for doing wrong and yet here you're complaining that he does nothing.  Which is it?   Are you contradicting yourself?

You're funny.  i know you're trying in your own way to put into perspective that we suffer from our own choices and that God is not needed.  I agree.. .however that doesn't mean he's not there.  

you're trying to turn God into the murderer, the rapist, etc.. because he didn't stop it... by what you said above, you're basically taking all the blame off the person who actually did it.  Are you saying that with God in the world, everyone's actually innocent of their own choices?

Cap, that quote was not aimed at you, it was the other Christian in this thread saying that he was looking forward to death so he could get his desert after dinner.  I find that selfish concept sick and divisive to humanity. I am not saying all believers in that myth buy into that selfishness. I wish more believers would not "look forward" to death, be they Christians, Muslims or Jews.

But since that book has words in it describing the emotional appeal of desert after an orgy of violence, it should not shock you that others claiming to believe in the same super hero, believe that. So your debate should be with this other "true Christian", not me.

So predictable. I bet you think I have never seen this one before.

That is back peddling. In the context of the bible this God character takes revenge on dissent. You are totally delusional to deny that.

Why all the violence and drama during life? If it was good enough a plan to keep us in line during life(which he seems to do a horrible job at), why not use the same tactic of fear and bribery in the alleged after life?

If nothing bad will happen to me after I die then there is no reason for me to "obey" this god now.

You are trying to downplay the reality of the violent text of the bible EVERY PART OF IT. This is a God you don't fuck with, and if violence was good enough for the OT and Revelations I don't see why this alleged God would stop being violent after our deaths.

Now again, I do not believe in your invisible brain claim. I am saying that the motif of the entire bible paints this lead character as a violent prick. If he behaves like a violent prick throughout the book, what makes you think an abusive prick would ever stop being violent?

I do not "submit" to absolute power. I don't care. If we are assuming your comic book god claim. I was FORCED into this life with no option. I was not asked before hand.

Now you say all God will do is like a game show host, "Thanks for playing but you get no parting gifts".

The problem is that I was forced without consent by this tyrant to be a guest on his game show. And his rule book is full of violence and genocide all over his self worship. And now you say after all the threats while I am alive, that he wont stalk me and beat the shit out of me after I step off stage?

Considering how many violent tantrums he throws you want me to take your word for it, much less that book?

I am sorry Cap, this is a horrible concept as a claim and you are abusing your own brain with this horrible superstition.

Cap, you would have more of a case IF in your alleged god scheme, I had been asked and consulted BEFORE I was born, if I wanted to be born. Since I had no choice in that, that DOES NOT constitute consent.

Even without a god, which is the reality, I had no choice in my parents having sex. Nature doen't require all the brain twisting you do to yourself nor the self serving narscisstic powermonger comic book super hero you desire.

You can cop out to "free will", but the problem with that is that in your god model, HE allowed this. You gloss over the starting point, not because there is a god, but because you have to have it both ways in order to swallow this.

In reality, WE do hold people accountable, weither it is a mere mistake, or mallicious intent. Considering that your god (according to your claim he exists) threw me into this life without my permission, and subjected me to the imperfect home he allowed, that makes him inept or a deadbeat or mallicious. If he is all powerful, then he the fact that he won't take responsibility for what he set up, makes him malicious.

You refuse to hold this fictitious character accountable because of your desire to have a super hero.

Once you buy, "He works in mysterious ways"

Or, "God can do what he wants"

You don't have to hold him accountable. Thus you have blindly abdicated your own scrutiny to another.

It is more understandable when a kid does it because they don't know any better and have to learn to be skeptical. But when you are an adult and you give up your questioning authority, you might as well live under Kim Jong Ill and have "faith" in him.

i don't know... just a thought, but I think any king who can claim he created everything that he rules over and designed it from his own mind can be unmovable in power over that entity that he created.  Just like parents

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but just to clarify, i don't, so that wouldn't apply to all believers

he does not take kindly to lawbreakers... or as you call them, outsiders.. you know, just like an American would treat an "outsider"  that was against our country.

and yet you defend yourself by saying that Christians are believers because it appeals to them... interesting how you like to contradict yourself at every turn.

are you sure?

Since when did I claim to believe in graven images and idols?  i get why you walked away, but you care not to think... maybe that's what caused you to walk away.

is that what I said?  sorry, I meant you didn't learn the Bible, you were taught doctrine, there are many ways to worship God and it's hard to do it wrong unless it breaks the laws.

ok, and you live in a material world, so you must be a material girl... or guy.

that must be it.  

now who's taking out the parts that appeal to their belief?  

insecurities, aren't you the one who bailed once again on a progressive conversation?  What happened to your plagiarism defense

wrong yet again, but as usual, i bet it still means nothing to you because you don't want it to.   Do you even understand why Christians would keep saying that to you?  If it's the same Sunday School answer you've been giving, then save it.  You'd be wasting your time.

you really do think that in order to have a god exist it would ultimately be "needed" and not just there because he made it all?  and here i thought that it was just an excuse you were using for your defense.

obey?  do you even care to find out why "obeying" is not what God wants from you?

what you see as violent in physical life is a consequence, and not permanent.  you are trying to downplay reasoning and the not so violent parts... who am i kidding, you're trying to ignore reasoning altogether.  it's devistating to your case.

you sure about that?  you were there before your birth to assure that you didn't make a choice?

all disputes aside for a moment, if you're taking that perspective there are stories that suggest you do have a choice and beyond that, there are people, without knowledge of those stories claiming they remember being asked.  

yea, this is way beyond you, i get it, don't fret, you'll be fine.  just keep believing in yourself.

parents.  you must blame your parents just as much then be it that they made the choice as well. 

maybe so... so show me... as i've asked you many many times on this forum and you've failed to do repeatedly, show me why I should not accept this belief.  I am open to logic and reasoning... what you have given me so far is neither, only rants that don't support anything.
 

ok go for it.

wait.. we don't know about the unchanging plane that is clearly stated in the Bible??? and uh... are you telling me you never know the result of actions you take?  Do you have amnesia?  

or is it a foreknowledge that you're referring to.  in that case, are you telling me that you can't perceive the results of many actions you take?  What is your basis for your statement... sounds to me as if it's strictly opinion.

I debunked a poor excuse for disbelief

i believe you can't blame 2 persons for one persons actions.  It's an either or, either that person acted on their own initiative and is completely guilty, or there's a puppet master making that person do it, which then the puppet master's guilty.  Either way, both can't be guilty at the same time, it's not logical or reasonable.  I'm saying that Brian is trying to blame God, which would indicate then that the rapist is innocent... therefore he should be let go because it's all Gods fault that he allowed it to happen.  otherwise, it was a choice.  

Brian is concerned that God sits back and lets things happen, yet he forgets the conversation about how God doesn't want to be our puppet master and is not going to dictate what we can and cannot do.  He has always allowed choice and therefore isn't ever going to take that away, even when we make bad choices.  

you're confusing the conversation about needing God to explain how things work in our physical existence.  The biggest excuse coming my way is that God is not needed for explanation of existence.  I'm saying maybe not.  As far as wisdom and understanding, he of course would know all of it so of course we'd ask him for it.  I would not typically ask God for discernment of his will, i understand how he works and that I will find out.  I usually pray that he continues to work in my life more and more each day.  

What protection would you be referring to?  in situations that are out of our control and we feel unsafe, of course we'd ask God for protection, we know that we can't do anything about it and that he does.  I don't always understand why things are let go like they are, but I do understand that choices he makes are what's best for us.  I know this because I know God.  Sure, that seems like a generic answer, but then again, though you might question why your parents had made choices that you didn't exactly favor and in fact may have been angry about, deep down didn't you know that they were still making the best choice for you... or at least did you deduce that at some point?  I'm assuming you had a good set of parents, if not, picture the perfect set and think about the fact that their children would see actions they take as unjust, but in reality it was the best choice for them.  

Where are you getting this.  it's starting to sound like opinionated rambling.  If you're going to be that specific about how God treats those who "dont' believe or do wrong", i"m going to need to see some references to what you're referring to.  

No.  I'm defending God for not dictating our lives.  He lets us make our own choices.  He does that because he wants us to love him, not "obey" him like Brain thinks.  It is up to us to actually get to know him.  By getting to know God, you understand who he is and love him for it.  How could I love a God that does X, Y, and Z?  I understand He knows best and is doing what is best for his creation.  

just think, do you lock your children in their room and only let them out on a leash or do they actually get to make their own choices?  And in making their own choices, do they make bad ones?  

Now on the grander scale, peoples children are out there raping others and murdering others.  Sounds like Brain wants to hunt down the parents because they allowed their children to go out and make a choice.  Again, the rapist is innocent because someone else let them do it.

so when are you going to start fixing things for me in the name of truth???  Sounds like you asked more questions rather than fixing things

Fcuk can you people obfuscate.

I just said that.

You people have 'hope'.

You don't have anything else. So you willingly substitute 'hope' for any level of knowledge and certainty.

I'm not desperate.

That's why I don't 'hope' that a god exists.

I can emotionally cope with anything.

I'm rational.

You're attitude exemplifies extreme insecurity and weakness.

You're pathetic.

Never needed hope.

Opportunity is adequate for me.

We are not all created equal.

And I'm thankful that we're not.

It gives me opportunity to be better, more successful than others.

I'm exceptional at most everything, in comparison to most people.

So, I'm confident in my abilities, and accept my powerlessness against the universe, and can fully accept that there are always people, or things that will get the better of me.

And I can deal with those 'Universal Truths'.

Including eternal death.

I'm not like most people. And I'm glad I'm not.

I model myself after people who have extremely positive attitudes, problem solving and coping strategies.

I have everything I need for inspiration, from my fellow mortal man (sic), and from observing nature.

I don't need anything supernatural.

I'm not desperate for anything like that, at all.

Money is just something I like.

It affords me security, and I can get cool stuff with it.

I not only like (certain) people, I love them deeply, and benefit tremendously from surrounding myself with them, and sharing with them.

The time I spend with people I care deeply for, become my fondest memories, that stay with me forever, and are the most valuable thing in the world for me.

There's nothing that money can buy, that even comes close.

I wouldn't trade my experiences, love, and fond memories of some people, for anything in this world.

What for?

You make no sense...

I'm not complaining about anything I've done.

I just want freaks like you to STFU, so that I don't have to resort to taking matters into my own hands.

Capiche?

It's not raining 'gods' at all, you fool.

You just 'hope' there are gods.

I don't care what people believe. Neither do advanced cultures and societies.

You might think you have 'strength' in your numbers, but you do not 'rule' anything but your own imaginations.

We (as a society) are not a 'gods' loyal 'subjects'.

That goes against our 'individual rights'.

Which you should be thankful for.

Ya, that's why we still believe the sun revolves around the earth, and why creation is taught in schools, and why we still have slaves, and women are submissive, why women wear burkas, why we still burn witches at the stake, why the President leads us in prayer, why gays will never marry, why we can never abort a fetus, why contraceptives are evil, why the wicked are left to die of disease.

Ya, you guys sure are tough to beat...

Your theism (sickness and disease) is being eradicated from government, and government institutions.

It's not up to 'god'.

It's up to the 'people' (man).

We are gods.

Not 'him'.

We do not take 'him' seriously, at all. Not even 'his' existence.

The most advanced nations and modern cultures are not based on 'theocracy', they are based on 'democracy'  (rule of the people).

We are the gods, that render what your imagination hopes for, redundant and counterproductive.

We fight for 'human rights' and 'individual rights', not for insane tyranny from mythical gods.

You're 'god' is becoming invisible, and entirely superfluous.

Becoming extinct, in reality.

Wake up an smell the coffee, dufus.

They're all the same, you clown.

Because you are counterproductive to 'individual rights'.

You all want to be slaves to a master.

That's dysfunctional.

You want to be someone's eternal b1tch?

Leave everyone else out of it.

Because you halt progress.

Mine, and everyone else's.

Some of us want to evolve as far away from stoopid camel jockey sand monkeys, jerking off imaginary figures in the skies, as we can.

But you're all in the fast lane, with your heads up your asses, going along at a snails pace, because you don't know how to fcuking navigate life.

I am.

I don't suffer fools gladly.

Any fool, who wants to submit to his master, getting on his knees, and kissing the ground (assuming the perfect position to get fcuked in the ass) in the fast lane, deserves to get my boot in his ass, for getting in my way.

Both of you are not to stand in my way.

Understand, b1tches?

Ok, a few questions, and yes I know I'm jumping in the middle but I am curious and have been gone a while.

To the theists who believe in some metaphysical afterlife (christian focus):

1) Am I the same person as I was before death when I awaken, reform or am somehow placed in this afterlife? What I mean is, am I still my 'imperfect' self with all my flaws or am I someone who has had all of their imperfections and negative traits removed (assuming that I end up in the happy afterlife anyhow)?

The reason for this question is simple, if I am stripped of all negative traits, desires, etc. then I am being partially lobotomized, parts of my 'me' are being literally torn out, I might still be able to talk and function but I wouldn't be who I am now. In this case your deity seems more like a kind of sadistic monster from an exploitative slasher flick where the victims are lobotomized and made to play at certain parts endlessly (see 'holy holy holy, lord God almighty, etc.') Now on the other hand if I still have my negative traits, my arrogance, my contrariness, my temper, etc. then I am still me, but me having these thoughts, feelings, ideas etc. is 'sinful' ergo God apparently can stand being around it so either your messiah died for nothing or it was a literal carte blanche to do whatever you damn well pleased.

2) Assuming I, a filthy atheist heathen, am sent to the bad afterlife with fire and torture is my consciousness kept intact beyond normal limits?

Simply put, throw me in an eternal fire while peeling me like one would a potato would not only really really hurt but it would probably fry my pain receptors and my mind so badly that I'd go catatonic, I'd still be suffering but I'd more or less be a vegetable. Now if God set up this system so that I would still be fully cognizant and conscious during the whole process that seems pretty damn horrific. Such a deity would be acting in such monstrous hate that they would be unworthy of worship by any but the most depraved. Now if my mind breaks a few hours in, ok, situation sucks, but the torment wouldn't be eternal in the sense that would matter.

3) In the bad afterlife is it possible to interact with others, ala dantes inferno?

Yes, I know that Dante isn't a scriptural book but it made quite an impact, and on a more practical note it's an easy example. If I can communicate with others there, assuming my mind doesn't give out and theirs doesn't, hell might be unpleasant but could still be manageable. I have all of eternity and if all the various heathens and such are down there I would imagine that I would find many worthy and interesting people there.

4) Would it be worse if there was a good afterlife and oblivion for those that didn't measure up?

This one is more a question of your own morals.

5) Why wouldn't the virtuous protest those who would be tormented in hell?

This is just a personal thing, if there are so many people whos main problem is literally that they didn't get the gospel in time why aren't they protesting God? Why not offer to try to help these people or at least call for some kind of mercy?

I like how you put that together.

I always start off by asking what you would accept as reasonable evidence, but then again, that approach has been received with excuse after excuse.  One being that it's a dodge from me to present evidence and the other as evidence that would be irrational to consider be it that it would just be an impossible means of proving P through that methodology, e.g. asking me to study the anatomy of a Kangaroo using an apple.  

The problem is I could go in many different directions.  I am currently in a forum going in depth through the Bible on a historical front.  History is not my strong point, but one individual wanted that angle and I am currently progressing through it with him.  We still both hold our own reasoning, but have concluded thus far that there is a lack of evidence on either side to soundly conclude anything using history alone.  My take is that due to the congruency in the history that we can find that would be in relation to the culture and the time as well as location, there's reason to suggest it is plausible that the stories did happen.  His take is that due to discrepencies like exaggerated numbers and misrepresented names/dates it's plausible that they're not true despite the congruency with those discrepencies in all historical documents from that time, which would go along with my plausibility of congruency in the little bit of history that we can find.    

If history is your angle, I can refer you to that forum and would welcome your input.

I can focus on a scientific front and discuss scientific method approaches to study that could possibly be done for reasonable evidence of "the God effect" on people, though psychologically people can try to excuse it, which would again leave that angle only plausible on both sides.  Other methods have been presented, but I think it scared some.  these would be setting up case studies where particular groups of believers and non-believers were put together in similar situations and social behaviors would be studied to see if there were any differences between groups.  

Beyond that, we can discuss different scientific angles like quantum physics, theory, physical structure, etc.  and how that can apply to the likelihood of an intelligent designer.

If science is your angle, we can tackle that on a new forum.  

Statistics is another angle with numbers and events in the world.  Studies that point to God through the Vatican though trust issues concern non-believers with that.  Statistical reasoning through what science has discovered about the universe and the world that we live in and how things function and are created the way they are.  A simple excuse out of any statistical approach is to say it did or didn't happen deeming any statistical improbability feckless in the conversation.  

If statistics is your angle, we can go there

Archeology is an angle that seems to be more evidence for many, but then again, the lack of information leads to probability and excuses that just because there is some truth in the scriptures doesn't make it true.  kind of goes along with history.

Or any other angle for that matter.  See what it really comes down to is what angle do you want to take that would help you "understand the facts in such a way to see the truth to which they point."